Interesting Question: What if Iran Develops a Drone Army Like Turkey?

[Wombat + 1,028]

40 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

First, ANY aircraft using electronic or digital systems must be vulnerable to EMP weapons in the first case and hacking in the second...in my humble opinion as I am not a weapons specialist.

Second, stealthy aircraft are stealthy, until they aren’t. If these aircraft have internal weapons stores, they are stealthy right up until they open the bay doors - then they aren’t. Granted, this is only for a short time, but still a vulnerability. Radars will continue to improve to detect stealth aircraft....and stealth technology will continue to improve to defeat the new radars, and on and on we go. The F-117 used to be THE stealth aircraft, it is now obsolete.

Finally guys, I would bet good money that there are a few ‘mythical’ aircraft out there in production that we don’t know about! The SR71 was a secret for years! It first flew in 1964 and still holds several records. If the military had a real ‘game changing’ aircraft, or any weapons system, why would they let anyone know about it - I sure as heck wouldn’t!

 

OK Dougie, I will help you out a bit. First, EMP weapons are useless if u can't see where to point them. NO RADAR can detect low-flying aircraft, let alone truly stealthy ones. The F-117 may be obsolete, but only because the F-22 and F-35 are such a massive improvement. The B-2 is still in a class of its own but I won't tell u why, even tho Chinese scientists are well aware, as are all physicists around the globe. I told you about the robot cheetah and big dog. If u can't see how the same AI can (and has been) applied to drone aircraft, that is ur problem. It is a "mature" technology now. There are other Western technologies in the sphere of aero-dynamics that allow scram-jet powered aircraft (another Aussie invention) to pull 40-50G's, almost 10X what a human can endure and certainly enough to evade any Chinese missile. I could go on, but I think u got the point?

[Wombat + 1,028]

9 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

In which case, as has been mentioned previously, you destroy the source of the drones and the areas where they are launched.

Cheap fake drones become ‘not so cheap’ when you are ‘flooding’ them. An economy of scale again.

Also, you can just nuke Beijing and call their bluff?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 hour ago, Wombat said:

Ah Doug, u forget that I am a Physicist and I know all about these "mythical" aircraft. I sure as heck won't let you know about them but I have given you plenty of hints and you can't join the dots. So far, nobody on this site has demonstrated any knowledge of physics and I just fishing. Not gonna give any secrets to the Chinese!

And I am an engineer, which is a scientist with opposable thumbs, and neither of us know squat about what aircraft may, or may not be, in inventory.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

49 minutes ago, Wombat said:

OK Dougie, I will help you out a bit. First, EMP weapons are useless if u can't see where to point them. NO RADAR can detect low-flying aircraft, let alone truly stealthy ones. The F-117 may be obsolete, but only because the F-22 and F-35 are such a massive improvement. The B-2 is still in a class of its own but I won't tell u why, even tho Chinese scientists are well aware, as are all physicists around the globe. I told you about the robot cheetah and big dog. If u can't see how the same AI can (and has been) applied to drone aircraft, that is ur problem. It is a "mature" technology now. There are other Western technologies in the sphere of aero-dynamics that allow scram-jet powered aircraft (another Aussie invention) to pull 40-50G's, almost 10X what a human can endure and certainly enough to evade any Chinese missile. I could go on, but I think u got the point?

Okay, you are obviously the smartest, most well connected person on this forum. Therefore it is pointless to attempt a discussion, let alone a debate, with someone with such a vast intellect and who has access to military secrets.

[Wombat + 1,028]

2 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And I am an engineer, which is a scientist with opposable thumbs, and neither of us know squat about what aircraft may, or may not be, in inventory.

Ha Ha, that is what u think. Ur last President gave me a demo about 6 years ago and Royal Australian Air Force has "tweaked" the technology since then. Think "big dog drone" meets F-22. That is what Australia now producing and yes, it was on the local news with footage. Right here in Brisbane in conjunction with Boeing Australia (who are based here coz Uni of Qld developed SCRAM-jet).

[Wombat + 1,028]

Just now, Wombat said:

Ha Ha, that is what u think. Ur last President gave me a demo about 6 years ago and Royal Australian Air Force has "tweaked" the technology since then. Think "big dog drone" meets F-22. That is what Australia now producing and yes, it was on the local news with footage. Right here in Brisbane in conjunction with Boeing Australia (who are based here coz Uni of Qld developed SCRAM-jet).

Yes, I am well connected, and yes, I do have an IQ of 150+ and am one of just 10 ppl on the planet that actually understand Einstein's General Theory, but no, I do not look down at you Doug. It takes a smart cookie with determination to get a degree in engineering and that why I enjoy sparring with you. I think this whole site benefits from our discussion, including Tom

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Again, it is impossible to debate with such a well connected intellect, so will spend my time elsewhere.

Also, as we know, the Aussies are the most intelligent people on the planet and have progressed the human endeavor more than any other nationality since prior to the Industrial Revolution!

[Wombat + 1,028]

1 minute ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Again, it is impossible to debate with such a well connected intellect, so will spend my time elsewhere.

Also, as we know, the Aussies are the most intelligent people on the planet and have progressed the human endeavor more than any other nationality since prior to the Industrial Revolution!

About bloody time you acknowledge that fact. Before us, it was the British. You never recognise them either!

 

[Wombat + 1,028]

1 minute ago, Wombat said:

About bloody time you acknowledge that fact. Before us, it was the British. You never recognise them either!

 

Don't take me so serious Doug, I like to give you a stir coz u funny bugger and u have much better idea than most on this site

[El Nikko + 2,145]

5 hours ago, Wombat said:

NO RADAR can detect low-flying aircraft

That isn't true, modern fighters have look down/shoot down capability which means they can lock on an aircraft flying below the horizon against the back clutter.

Modern surface to air missile systems can shoot down very low flying aircraft such as drones and cruise missiles. It's only when an aircraft flies nape of the earth and uses obsticles like hills etc to break the radar lock which will then send a missile ballistic and render it useless.

There are other systems that will work as well including infrared (no radar needed just a heat source) and even wire and optically tracked laser guided anti tank missiles can be used to shoot down slower aircraft.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Here's footage from Syria, most likely Iranian drones and possibly Chinese built ones operated by Iran. I don't think this is from any aircraft the Syrians have.

 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Here's a Russian drone being shot down over Idlib today or yesterday (most likely by a stinger missile used by so called rebels)

It's probably an Orlan-10, quite a small drone as demonstrated in the picture below.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by El Nikko

[surrept33 + 609]

22 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Most so called civi "drones" have no INS(internal navigation system) in them.  They are purely GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO guided and can be easily jammed by blocking those frequencies.  Military drones do so they do not need GPS.  Now weather said drone has proper ability to determine when GPS is being jammed and drop back to its INS is another matter entirely.  The early drones were never intended for war, but rather as trials for integration/usefulness, and their hardened ability to withstand hacking is pitiful.  It was an afterthought at best, especially on the small drones which frankly you do not care about as it is nothing but off the shelf civi components.  Bigger drone manufacturers for the western militaries... I'll bet it is different especially now.  20 years ago?  No.  

INS = inertial navigation system. Which civi drones are you talking about? I'd be shocked if they didn't have a INS unit, since they're so commoditized these days, and allow navigation indoor, especially combined with other sensors. Even things like visual odometry can be done with very cheap chips these days.

 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

19 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

INS = inertial navigation system. Which civi drones are you talking about? I'd be shocked if they didn't have a INS unit, since they're so commoditized these days, and allow navigation indoor, especially combined with other sensors. Even things like visual odometry can be done with very cheap chips these days.

 

Inertial requires a pesky thing called 3 accelerometers in the 3 different planes + gyro + computer to do the integrals.  And no, they do not have an INS in civi buy it off the shelf.  The Gyro is cheap.  1d accelerometers are cheap, but, the computer and integration would be cheap, if someone did it.  in fact you can do a poor mans navigation using 2 Gyros, 1 accelerometer, and a pressure transducer(how drones flew across the atlantic ocean going after price money initially), but no one has made a cheap RC civi version of the above.  Why?  GPS is dirt cheap.  GPS guided requires very little other than a very simple vector homing equations and 3 satellites.  The navigation indoor you are talking about have a HUMAN navigating, or are 2d on the floor and they count the revolutions of their wheels.  Now could someone use simple crude silicon accelerometers as found in say a cell phone and get close ~enough for short trips for an INS?  Yes.  On longer trips, the errors of integration and that pesky ol' + constant at end of said integration really start to pile up as the quality of accelerometers in an INS truly show their colors.  For an example: Satellite placement in space, currently using INS, is now guaranteed within 10 meters.

And yes, your government drones other than the hand luanched versions all have INS, but as I said previously, integration between INS/GPS is the problem.  How to know when to fall back 100% on INS, when GPS is being spoofed, or jammed.  Jammed scenario is the easy one, you are getting no signal.  SPoofed is harder, and intermittent spoofing/jamming harder yet.  There are many clever ways around these problems.

[surrept33 + 609]

15 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Inertial requires a pesky thing called 3 accelerometers in the 3 different planes + gyro + computer to do the integrals.  And no, they do not have an INS in civi buy it off the shelf.  The Gyro is cheap.  1d accelerometers are cheap, but, the computer and integration would be cheap, if someone did it.  in fact you can do a poor mans navigation using 2 Gyros, 1 accelerometer, and a pressure transducer(how drones flew across the atlantic ocean going after price money initially), but no one has made a cheap RC civi version of the above.  Why?  GPS is dirt cheap.  GPS guided requires very little other than a very simple vector homing equations and 3 satellites.  The navigation indoor you are talking about have a HUMAN navigating, or are 2d on the floor and they count the revolutions of their wheels.  Now could someone use simple crude silicon accelerometers as found in say a cell phone and get close ~enough for short trips for an INS?  Yes.  On longer trips, the errors of integration and that pesky ol' + constant at end of said integration really start to pile up as the quality of accelerometers in an INS truly show their colors.  For an example: Satellite placement in space, currently using INS, is now guaranteed within 10 meters.

And yes, your government drones other than the hand luanched versions all have INS, but as I said previously, integration between INS/GPS is the problem.  How to know when to fall back 100% on INS, when GPS is being spoofed, or jammed.  Jammed scenario is the easy one, you are getting no signal.  SPoofed is harder, and intermittent spoofing/jamming harder yet.  There are many clever ways around these problems.

 

Ok, good to know, thanks. I guess MEMS based systems have not sufficiently increased in accuracy, and maybe the sensor fusion algos (to reduce positional uncertainty) in common use for these things wasn't as advanced as I'd assumed.  Most of my navigation/localization experience was long ago in both marine and subsurface/subsea environments.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,131]

27 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

 

Ok, good to know, thanks. I guess MEMS based systems have not sufficiently increased in accuracy, and maybe the sensor fusion algos (to reduce positional uncertainty) in common use for these things wasn't as advanced as I'd assumed.  Most of my navigation/localization experience was long ago in both marine and subsurface/subsea environments.

MEMS... Most accelerometers today are MEMS.  Only the ones going to say, MARS, Mercury, Moon, Jupiter, GPS satellites, are still piezo electric quartz based.  Everything else?  MEMS, but the quality varies MASSIVELY. 

Algos?  There is nothing new there, it is simple integration from acceleration to velocity to position, but it is everything else which gets in the way.  You must accommodate temperature profiles of your structures flexing, minute tiny changes in resistance, and has to be in a perfect gas environment that does not change composition and you can use equations of perfect gas laws to predict resistance.  So glues you use, welding you use cannot outgas etc.    Several other factors in the electronics(how many digits you carry for instance(accuracy in computer)matters)

[specinho + 440]

On 3/5/2020 at 3:06 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

RADAR tracking AA guns with explosive shells are dirt cheap.  Used to be ubiquitous. 

Bigger drones?  Missiles. 

Modern answer: LASER

 

On 3/3/2020 at 12:15 PM, Douglas Buckland said:

Electronic pulse munitions

 

On 3/5/2020 at 8:38 PM, Wombat said:

OK Dougie, I will help you out a bit. First, EMP weapons are useless if u can't see where to point them. NO RADAR can detect low-flying aircraft, let alone truly stealthy ones.

Dear Commies (members of community)

I have a wonderful news...... please refer to this movie:

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, 1986....

You would be surprised at what they used to blast the drones in the 1980s............ HEAVY METAL music.......

I'm not a techie but assumption is made. A full blast of heavy metal music into the ionosphere caused massive frequency disruption, failure of drone strategic attack formation but also, caused drones to have heart attack or jam component transmission heated up and self exploded........

Edited March 6, 2020 by specinho

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/3/2020 at 3:51 PM, Geoff Guenther said:

Reportedly, in Tokyo, local gangs have started using drones to transport drugs across the city.

In response, the police are using net-carrying drones to try to capture these packets mid-air.

The gangs are counter-attacking with their own net-drones to try and drop police drones.

In a statement with the Tokyo police, they say they "Haven't had this much fun in years"

Reminds me of the term dragnet and the TV show Dragnet. This sounds like fun. I would think that there is a way to use a laser to disable the drones. Upgrade the conflict. Some of these criminals have more money than the local police. 

[Marcin2 + 724]

On 3/3/2020 at 3:11 AM, Zhong Lu said:

What exactly are you supposed to do to counter that? Shooting a missile at a drone isn't worth the cost and they fly too fast to be reliably shot down by ballistics.  

I do not think this is of major concern of any country.

(unless you need to invade Iran if it goes nuclear, my take it would be impossible - invasion not nuclear Iran)

My major concern are small, off the shelf commercial drones.

Toys with 20 pounds payload and 10k pricetag.

And used by terrorists or in black operations by state actors.

You can imagine swarm of 100 or 1000 of them attacking stadium or political gathering or strategic industrial objects like electricity transmission lines with small but lethal enough explosives.

I think they could be also devastating at battlefiled when used by state actors. You cannot prevent attack of swarms of 10,000 drones that could kill all smaller assets in a military base.
As was extensively written about here, low flying, even 20 feet overground small drobe could not be detected, and all weapons are much more expensive than target.

 

[Marcin2 + 724]

I am not even thinking of spread of chemical weapons through small drones, like swarm of them leaving sarin inside 20 metro stations at the same time. Could be done by conspired cell of 3 terrorists with minimal budget and mostly commercial civilian gear.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Reminds me of the term dragnet and the TV show Dragnet. This sounds like fun. I would think that there is a way to use a laser to disable the drones. Upgrade the conflict. Some of these criminals have more money than the local police. 

Think of the power consumption for those lasers.  This could be a major flaw in their defence.  We'll have to plan our attack on a non-windy day!

[El Nikko + 2,145]

On 3/7/2020 at 9:46 AM, Geoff Guenther said:

Think of the power consumption for those lasers.  This could be a major flaw in their defence.  We'll have to plan our attack on a non-windy day!

There was a time I was wondering if you were a troll...even if not that was really funny

[El Nikko + 2,145]

On 3/7/2020 at 3:54 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

 

Thanks Doug, I'm in the UK and we need a license to own a fecking spoon.....and now I'm on a watch list for watching that 😂

[Tomasz + 1,608]

 Russia wants to finally pull out the second NATO army  Turkey from this alliance.

So Russia will not murder Turks with thousands, generally would prefer to have the best relations with them because Turkey is now only formally in NATO and its Russia's great success.

It so happens that Russia and Turkey are eternal enemies and have fought 17 wars with each other.

Of these wars Russia won 16 lost only Crimean but there de facto lost to France and Great Britain not Turkey.

She took the entire Balkans Romania, Bulgaria over Turkey helped Greece militarly regain independence. In addition, the entire Caucasus, including Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.

It would take also Istanbul by force but Great Britain would never let it.

So, Turks historically, although they don't like Russians, they have some huge respect for them.