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1 hour ago, 0R0 said:

The mortality for symptomatic patients appears to be 1%. Without treatment it is higher. Italy reports 5%, however, as the average age of victims is 80 and they don't ask if the cause of death was CV19 but rather whether they were positive, the rate is overstated. 

Of the current hospitalised patients in Italy only 50% are above the age of 65. Many below this age group are dying on a daily basis, 793 yesterday.

In the UK a girl 21 died today, she had NO underlying health issues whatsoever.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-briton-21-with-no-existing-health-conditions-dies-after-contracting-covid-19-11963451

The virus in the main seems quite mild for the vast majority approx 82%, but there is a minority of the public (not just the elderly) where it is totally devastating.

It is wrong to say this isnt potentially life threatening to younger people with or without other health issues

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11 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Meanwhile Boeing stock has dropped by 78% in five weeks and the top 20 companies that did big buybacks over the last two years have lost some 1.5 trillion with a T off their market cap.  With all that capital incinerated, you can forget the idea that fresh capital is available for the shale oil fields, outside of the majors, and even there it is going to be in dribbles.  The economic impact will be huge, and the cities with the greatest real estate appreciation will see the gigantic drops. I predict the average house in the USa will drop in market value by over $100,000 in the next 18 months, and the drop is likely to be permanent, as rebuilding all that lost capital is likely beyond the capacity of the economic system. 

I don't think that housing will be affected that much. Perhaps CA, and high priced New England. But the rest of the country never paid those kinds of prices for housing. Median home prices are $247K People in the big cities and their suburbs don't get how hysterically overpriced their real estate is. Its the 21st century, why are employers insisting that you do your work in a congested downtown that requires 4 hours of commuting or million dollar efficiency apartments. 

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(edited)

From the preceding discussions, it seems that maybe it is time to just let the disease run rampant, get it over with, and start rebuilding!

Apparently there is absolutely nothing that anybody is doing that is worthwhile in combating this thing. Apparently everything is just window dressing to buy time to get on the tail end of the bell curve while we wait on a vaccine.

Of course, while all this ‘smoke & mirrors’ bullshit is going on, the global economy is swirling towards the drain, our retirement funds have evaporated so that when we do expire - we are broke!

Let’s just let the virus have it’s way, play by Darwin’s rules (survival of the fittest) and get on with the show!

Edited by Douglas Buckland
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6 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Of the current hospitalised patients in Italy only 50% are above the age of 65. Many below this age group are dying on a daily basis, 793 yesterday.

In the UK a girl 21 died today, she had NO underlying health issues whatsoever.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-briton-21-with-no-existing-health-conditions-dies-after-contracting-covid-19-11963451

The virus in the main seems quite mild for the vast majority approx 82%, but there is a minority of the public (not just the elderly) where it is totally devastating.

It is wrong to say this isnt potentially life threatening to younger people with or without other health issues

European hospitals have a cleaning staff and practical nurse problem with many unskilled immigrants. It takes an enormous effort to train them to the high standards of hygiene you need in a hospital, including basics such as not transferring rinse water from room to room, changing gloves between patients, etc. . Under the extreme pressure they are facing, their weak discipline is slipping. Some of those young deaths are likely secondary infections contracted in the hospital. 

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3 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

From the preceding discussions, it seems that maybe it is time to just let the disease run rampant, get it over with, and start rebuilding!

Apparently there is absolutely nothing that anybody is doing that is worthwhile in combating this thing. Apparently everything is just window dressing to buy time to get on the tail end of the bell curve while we wait on a vaccine.

O

Not really.  Those with light viral  loads are not going to create death infections, not that many at any rate, so lowering incidence of group contact should have a substantial diminishing effect.  If you let it "run rampant" then you can anticipate that many more will become symptomatic, sneeze and cough their way to oblivion, and take down thousands with them. When people with light viral loads recover, then the virus dies with that recovery. Will those people develop immunity?  Nobody knows, but it is possible, in which case the disease becomes a bit like an underground coal fire, just smoldering below the surface, cannot get stamped out, but also not destroying society. 

Keep in mind that society may not be able to develop a vaccine. 

It seems that all this developed at a "wet market" inside the city of Wuhan.  A wet market is where you have these live animals, including bats and snakes, and you pick out what you want and it gets slaughtered in front of you, and you take the meat home for your lunch or dinner.  But those animals and birds were never cultivated for human consumption, and have those RNA strands that we know nothing about, parasites to those animals in the wild, but disastrous to humans.  How anyone can be so stupid as to go eat that bush-meat is beyond me, but they do. In this case the RNA strand material seems to come from a specific clawed ground animal, something that looks like a sloth, perhaps about 10 or 15 lbs weight.   You have to assume that there are dozens of other such creatures out there in those wet markets also infected with RNA parasite strands. 

In my view the only realistic solution is severance of those societies from the West.  Keep those people on the other side of the ocean, then if they get infected, at least it does not bring you down with them. 

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(edited)

11 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

European hospitals have a cleaning staff and practical nurse problem with many unskilled immigrants. It takes an enormous effort to train them to the high standards of hygiene you need in a hospital, including basics such as not transferring rinse water from room to room, changing gloves between patients, etc. . Under the extreme pressure they are facing, their weak discipline is slipping. Some of those young deaths are likely secondary infections contracted in the hospital. 

Oro I think you are super clever with anything financial, however what you put here is simply not true.

Just because many of these are immigrants from India or S.E Asia doesnt mean they arent trained to the standards required and qualified accordingly.

I can assure you that hospitals in Europe and their staff work to extremely high standards at all times.

New York is just starting to realise what this virus is all about and I predict in 3-4 weeks time its going to be in a world of pain just like Italy and now Spain are in. The UK will be there sooner approx 1-2 weeks

LIVE: New York records 5,000 cases of COVID-19 in one day as coronavirus pandemic continues

Edited by Rob Plant

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3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

In this case the RNA strand material seems to come from a specific clawed ground animal, something that looks like a sloth

I think it was a pangolin Jan

image.jpeg.0fc1ec3d344abce119301ee7caa601d8.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Rob Plant said:

Oro I think you are super clever with anything financial, however what you put here is simply not true.

Just because many of these are immigrants from India or S.E Asia doesnt mean they arent trained to the standards required and qualified accordingly.

I can assure you that hospitals in Europe and their staff work to extremely high standards at all times.

New York is just starting to realise what this virus is all about and I predict in 3-4 weeks time its going to be in a world of pain just like Italy and now Spain are in. The UK will be there sooner approx 1-2 weeks

I have not observed EU hospitals closely recently. But I do recall the discussion about it some years back when all were running extreme measures to train the first line of contact people. 

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4 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I think it was a pangolin Jan

Yup, you nailed it. 

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(edited)

55 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

From the preceding discussions, it seems that maybe it is time to just let the disease run rampant, get it over with, and start rebuilding!

Apparently there is absolutely nothing that anybody is doing that is worthwhile in combating this thing. Apparently everything is just window dressing to buy time to get on the tail end of the bell curve while we wait on a vaccine.

Of course, while all this ‘smoke & mirrors’ bullshit is going on, the global economy is swirling towards the drain, our retirement funds have evaporated so that when we do expire - we are broke!

Let’s just let the virus have it’s way, play by Darwin’s rules (survival of the fittest) and get on with the show!

I have more than once just thought "just give me the damn virus so I'll be immune or dead."  Either way I wouldn't have to give a shit anymore. 

But I still try to keep it from spreading to save other peoples' lives. I want the inheritance money but don't want to be Typhoid Mary to my mom or my fiances parents.

Darwin didn't say the fittest would live, it was those most adaptable to change.  The T-Rex was "top dog" but couldn't adapt to climate change.

 

Edited by Enthalpic

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49 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

European hospitals have a cleaning staff and practical nurse problem with many unskilled immigrants. It takes an enormous effort to train them to the high standards of hygiene you need in a hospital, including basics such as not transferring rinse water from room to room, changing gloves between patients, etc. . Under the extreme pressure they are facing, their weak discipline is slipping. Some of those young deaths are likely secondary infections contracted in the hospital. 

I'm certain hospital acquired infections are responsible for many of these deaths.  This is why using an antibiotic on a viral disease makes some sense - it's the secondary bacterial infection that kills.  Coughing damages the lung tissue and makes it more susceptible to pathogens.   

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29 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm certain hospital acquired infections are responsible for many of these deaths.  This is why using an antibiotic on a viral disease makes some sense - it's the secondary bacterial infection that kills.  Coughing damages the lung tissue and makes it more susceptible to pathogens.   

I don't think so. You're right in that secondary bacterial pneumonia often follows viruses like influenza. However, this virus kills by activating a reactive bomb within the cytokine system. It in turn damages the lung parenchymal cells, then totally destroys the alveolar pockets. In other words, it's the immunologic storm that gets you, not secondary infection. 

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3 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

I don't think so. You're right in that secondary bacterial pneumonia often follows viruses like influenza. However, this virus kills by activating a reactive bomb within the cytokine system. It in turn damages the lung parenchymal cells, then totally destroys the alveolar pockets. In other words, it's the immunologic storm that gets you, not secondary infection. 

Cytokine storm shock then?

Thanks for your input.

Edited by Enthalpic

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(edited)

I still don't want hospital acquired MRSA...

Edited by Enthalpic

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(edited)

6 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is a correlation between "viral load" and the timeline to kill off the material from a surface and also how symptomatic a casualty becomes after exposure.  The problem with light viral loads with this specific viral strand is that the disease itself is highly communicable even with light loads, and those so exposed then become walking transmitters without realizing it.  When you add these two factors together you have the makings of a pandemic  (and I shudder to think of the total number of deaths that will result, a lot higher than @ronwagnhas concluded, I anticipate at least a 5% fatality rate, so with a 60% infection rate, that is over 9 million US dead). 

To illustrate, there was this social party in Westport, Connecticut, a medium town of 28,000 in lower Connecticut, quite wealthy, where lots of folks work in NY city and commute on the train.  the party was the celebration of the host's 40th birthday.  Some 50 people were there, including one fellow from South Africa.  It turns out he was infected, but asymptomatic.  38 were infected.  One of those then attended a gathering of 450.  See how fast this goes?  It cannot be contained when the light infected persons are up and about, which is why hard lock-downs are needed.  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/us/coronavirus-westport-connecticut-party-zero.html     Where these new carriers symptomatic?  Nope, but as infected persons, they became carriers to others. 

And that is why this particular disease is so dangerous.  In previous flus, the casualties were in weak condition (from the war) and kept in halls close together - the perfect environment for contagion and death.  If you have a situation, as is now developing, where some 80% of the population becomes carriers, then without total lockdown it will tear through the world population.  And you will totally overwhelm the number of ICU beds and resiirators that are out there.  If the typical availability is 210 respirators for 335,000 people (as is the case in Vermont, USA), then you can see just how hopeless that is if the disease gets loose in the general population.  And that is before the medical staff itself starts to fall ill, which is inevitable.   The metals you suggest should do nicely for light viral loads.  Cheers. 

Thanks Jan, I always appreciate your opinions. I am no statistician. I barely survived advanced statistics. My estimate is that possibly 0.005 of those infected die ( One half of one percent). That is of course just a guess. Those dying will be those with the most underlying conditions, poorly treated, treated late, etc. I may be very wrong, but that is my guess. All should take as many precautions as they can, but life must go on. I am 74 years old with arrhythmia and slight asthma so I could possibly go quickly but I have had a good life. My SS and retirement checks would be lost to my family though! I am speaking of America and similar advanced nation's health care. 

My CCP Wuhan Coronavirus/Clovid19 topic. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MXY8T0j7k0oUBsHW4BfjJM__DRIyzqrDf_FSlV4hHpw/edit#

Edited by ronwagn
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2 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I am 74 years old with arrhythmia and slight asthma so I could possibly go quickly but I have had a good life. My SS and retirement checks would be lost to my family though! 

Ron, you are a prime candidate not to survive.  So avoid getting infected!  Your family needs those cheques, and the rest of us want you around!   Cheers,

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(edited)

6 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Thanks Jan, I always appreciate your opinions. I am no statistician. I barely survived advanced statistics. My estimate is that possibly 0.005 of those infected die ( One half of one percent). That is of course just a guess. Those dying will be those with the most underlying conditions, poorly treated, treated late, etc. I may be very wrong, but that is my guess. All should take as many precautions as they can, but life must go on. I am 74 years old with arrhythmia and slight asthma so I could possibly go quickly but I have had a good life. My SS and retirement checks would be lost to my family though! 

Be well.  I like your take on life.  Come to Canada and I'll buy you a beer.

330,000,000 people, 75% infection rate, 0.005 death rate... grim math.

Take zinc.

 

Edited by Enthalpic
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2 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Be well.  I like your take on life.  Come to Canada and I'll buy you a beer.

330,000,000 people, 75% infection rate, 0.005 death rate... grim math.

Take zinc.

 

My biggest upset is that I may have to delay my trip to the Canadian Rockies and Montana Rockies this summer! I pray for all those who are ill, scared, and poor, around the world though.

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1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

My biggest upset is that I may have to delay my trip to the Canadian Rockies and Montana Rockies this summer! I pray for all those who are ill, scared, and poor, around the world though.

Not a great time to be broke. 

Like always the rich benefit.  I'll use spare cash and buy up cheap equities like every other prick; have no worries about losing my job; residence.  I literally have a spare property sitting empty now than I'm living with my fiance. 

The virus is spreading socialism.  We help each other more, and it kills fossil humans selectively.

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1 minute ago, Enthalpic said:

Not a great time to be broke. 

Like always the rich benefit.  I'll use spare cash and buy up cheap equities like every other prick; have no worries about losing my job; residence.  I literally have a spare property sitting empty now than I'm living with my fiance. 

The virus is spreading socialism.  We help each other more, and it kills fossil humans selectively.

We bought one daughter a small home a couple of years ago. Now she has moved back with us despite that, and my mother in law's home is temporarily vacant as she is with us for awhile also. Voluntary socialism can be OK for awhile. We are no longer investors, but now is the time to get in IMHO. Best wishes on your relationship. The second time around has worked out very well for me. 36 years so far. 13 the first time. 

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On 3/18/2020 at 8:35 PM, RichieRich216 said:

So tired of this bullshit, What is happening to the world’s economy is due to all the Globalist and the push for Globalization! The few wants the world to be accountable only to them. I say put a target on the backs of these few and let’s go hunting, Globalization has proved to be a disaster now that this pandemic has hit the world.

Do I need a hunting license? And where are we all meeting up for the Grand Hunt? Funniest hunting party I'll ever go on, no need for 4X4's and cold weather gear camo, just jeans and a t-shirt.... And a gun or ten....

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On 3/18/2020 at 11:57 AM, Ward Smith said:

Let me guess. By your logic Trump is at fault. Nothing to do with MBS or Putin or CV or anything, it's all on Trump. 

Question: Have you figured out how to pour piss out of your boots with the directions written on the heels? 

Pelosi and Schumer and Biden and Bernie have been there for around thirty years EACH, and no one is pointing the finger at any of them for the disaster that has been in the making for decades now, but Trump comes in and in three years, everything happening is HIS fault. Funny how they all seem to have the answers NOW, when Trump was pumping up the economy and things were doing better. Uh-huh, right...... The Democrats have been slowly but surely pushing manufacturing to Mexico and China, waiving goodbye like it was leaving for a cruise, but it's all Trump's fault. I'm pretty sure they have been getting their pockets padded by China too. What a bunch of snowflake moron libtard idiots.....   Oh, and is the sudden rise of the stock market the ignorant fucks policies as well, you know, the bastard that took more vacations and played more golf than any other president in history? Yeah, the one with a birth certificate from Kenya? Most presidents are too busy to take that much vacation, but when all you do is let the country's economy ans population slide off into the shitter, free time should be abundant.... And I'm curious to know, who the hell plans on buying that book he is supposedly writing, unless the toilet paper situation keeps going down hill I don't see a reason....

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3 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Not really.  Those with light viral  loads are not going to create death infections, not that many at any rate, so lowering incidence of group contact should have a substantial diminishing effect.  If you let it "run rampant" then you can anticipate that many more will become symptomatic, sneeze and cough their way to oblivion, and take down thousands with them. When people with light viral loads recover, then the virus dies with that recovery. Will those people develop immunity?  Nobody knows, but it is possible, in which case the disease becomes a bit like an underground coal fire, just smoldering below the surface, cannot get stamped out, but also not destroying society. 

Keep in mind that society may not be able to develop a vaccine. 

It seems that all this developed at a "wet market" inside the city of Wuhan.  A wet market is where you have these live animals, including bats and snakes, and you pick out what you want and it gets slaughtered in front of you, and you take the meat home for your lunch or dinner.  But those animals and birds were never cultivated for human consumption, and have those RNA strands that we know nothing about, parasites to those animals in the wild, but disastrous to humans.  How anyone can be so stupid as to go eat that bush-meat is beyond me, but they do. In this case the RNA strand material seems to come from a specific clawed ground animal, something that looks like a sloth, perhaps about 10 or 15 lbs weight.   You have to assume that there are dozens of other such creatures out there in those wet markets also infected with RNA parasite strands. 

In my view the only realistic solution is severance of those societies from the West.  Keep those people on the other side of the ocean, then if they get infected, at least it does not bring you down with them. 

Speaking about Wet Markets . 

Many years ago a group of friends and I went out to dinner at a Chinese Restaurant. (U.S.)  We had a few beers and ordered dinner.  

I then excused myself from the table as I had to go to the restroom.  Upon entering the bathroom I passed an open stall, looking into this open stall I see a restaurant employee pants down around his ankles sitting on the toilet taking a dump . . . . in front of him were two buckets. He was peeling shrimp from one bucket and putting them in the other bucket.

Needless to say we left without waiting for our meal.

Edited by BLA
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On 3/19/2020 at 6:15 AM, Enthalpic said:

By your logic trump does no harm, and isn't responsible for any of these problems despite being leader of the most powerful nation?

Other leaders dealt with diseases and there wasn't global collapse (HIV, SARS, H1N1, Ebola). 

Trump destabilizes the world -which during the trade war you guys thought was a good thing - now accept that stability had its advantages.

Question: Can you answer a post without using a direct insult?

If you mean by destabilize that he put his proverbial foot up a lying cheating sack of shit country's government's proverbial ass, then yes, he did "destabilize" the world. Better now than later, we'll suffer for a little while and take away an assload of manufacturing from China and bring some of it back home, and some of it will go to hell for all I care, just not China.... And what were the infection rates of those others? Not nearly what we are dealing with now. And to be honest, it almost looks like they let it loose on purpose, judging by the way they kept it under wraps for so long..... Now the ENTIRE world is probably pissed at them, and rightfully so.....

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(edited)

7 часов назад Дуглас Бакленд сказал:

Болезнь, покончить с этим и начать восстановление!

По-видимому, никто не может бороться с этим. Все, что мы ожидаем, пока мы ждем вакцину.

"Дыра и зеркала" продолжаются, мировая экономика стремительно движется к истощению, наши пенсионные фонды так и есть - мы разорены!

Давайте просто дадим вирусам свой путь, играйте по правилам Дарвина и продолжайте шоу!

Herbert Spencer's social Darwism? The Anglo-Saxon foundation of the right-bank conservative concepts of imperialism at the turn of the XIX-XX centuries, inspiring Hitler (Adolf Schicklgruber)?

- If you do not fight the epidemic, SARS-2 (there is no de facto pandemic, there are epidemics in the USA, EU and East Asia), you will kill thousands of people, mostly elderly people.
- If you fight, you will kill the economy!
Zugzwang.

The American System, the so-called is to blame. Health [in the US: Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), Sanitary and Epidemiological Intelligence (SER) and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), National Center for Analysis and Simulation of Infrastructure (NISAC) and Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and Government (US PA)].
In the US and the EU, they missed the start of the spread of the virus because they did not want to lose profits, now citizens will have to pay for this ...

..

hopkins_map_32520.jpg?  ш = 960 & ч = 540 & растениеводстве = 1
Подтвержденные случаи в стране / регионе / Суверенитет
коронавирусов COVID-19 Центр глобальных системных научных и инженерных исследований (КОТБ) Университет Джон ПРИ Хопкинс
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Edited by Andrew Neopalimy

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