Tom Kirkman + 8,860 March 19, 2020 "Renewable" Energy simply cannot survive without government subsidies (aka FREE MONEY). Especially when competing against exceedingly low oil & gas prices. "Renewable" energy train wreck coming soon to China. Far left Greenies can cry all they want. Let markets decide if the Green New Deal type enforced Socialism is feasible (it's not). China Takes Axe To Alternative Energy Funding, Slashing Subsidies For Solar And Wind Things might be going from bad to worse for Elon Musk and his merry band of alternative energy cultists in China. While Musk is currently in the midst of criticism from the Chinese government related to a bait and switch he is pulling on vehicle hardware (while blaming the coronavirus), the Chinese government appears to be set on slashing additional alternative energy subsidies in 2020. China is going to cut its budget for new solar power plants in half this year and plans on completely ending handouts for offshore wind farms, according to Caixin. It is the latest in a string of moves by the Chinese government to cut support for renewable energy. The attitude has shifted in recent years as manufacturing costs have dropped. The government now seems focused on getting renewable energy to stand on its own. ... 1 3 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douglas Buckland + 6,308 March 19, 2020 Surprise, surprise, surprise!!! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 19, 2020 (edited) Yes, low oil prices will hurt renewable energy growth; any subsidy spending that was going to renewables will go to bailing out the oil industry. Will you "let the markets decide" if oil can be profitably mined in the US? Doubtful - you will support oil bailouts, just not green initiatives. P.S. trump is now socialist and was holding the wheel during the biggest global shitshow ever. Edited March 19, 2020 by Enthalpic 2 5 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 19, 2020 (edited) How about dead, broke, or both? Edited March 19, 2020 by Enthalpic 1 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,042 ML March 19, 2020 12 hours ago, Enthalpic said: Yes, low oil prices will hurt renewable energy growth; any subsidy spending that was going to renewables will go to bailing out the oil industry. Will you "let the markets decide" if oil can be profitably mined in the US? Doubtful - you will support oil bailouts, just not green initiatives. What oil bailouts are you referring to? What subsidies? Usually when I asked activists this their replies show that they have confused standard tax concessions - deductions for exploration expenses and so on which oil companies can claim - with subsidies. If you could point out what you're relying on I'll review it for you. 2 4 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 19, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, markslawson said: What oil bailouts are you referring to? What subsidies? Usually when I asked activists this their replies show that they have confused standard tax concessions - deductions for exploration expenses and so on which oil companies can claim - with subsidies. If you could point out what you're relying on I'll review it for you. They are coming just wait and see, and a subsidy can go by many names (tax breaks, "incentives", "strategic" purchases, etc.). If there were tax breaks on electric vehicles (waved sales tax for example) you know you would call that a subsidy. In Canada we are paying for pipelines directly with tax money. Building a multi billion dollar pipeline is a huge gift to the industry. Also bailing out the auto industry, airlines, etc. directly benefits the oil and gas industry. Edited March 19, 2020 by Enthalpic 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 March 20, 2020 Supporting oil and natural gas is a very wise decision. They are the mainstays of the energy that we need. Wind and solar are toys by comparison. They have not proven to be competitive despite huge subsidies. That was at much higher prices for oil and natural gas which are now practically free compared to high prices for solar and wind. There will be a crash in those industries. Electric cars will be great toys for wealthy folks until they come up with competitive prices without subsidies. All we need to do is impose tariffs on all imported oil and gas from all nations aside from Canada. 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Enthalpic said: They are coming just wait and see, and a subsidy can go by many names (tax breaks, "incentives", "strategic" purchases, etc.). If there were tax breaks on electric vehicles (waved sales tax for example) you know you would call that a subsidy. In Canada we are paying for pipelines directly with tax money. Building a multi billion dollar pipeline is a huge gift to the industry. Also bailing out the auto industry, airlines, etc. directly benefits the oil and gas industry. They should be minimized help made only if needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129 March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, ronwagn said: Supporting oil and natural gas is a very wise decision. They are the mainstays of the energy that we need. Wind and solar are toys by comparison. They have not proven to be competitive despite huge subsidies. That was at much higher prices for oil and natural gas which are now practically free compared to high prices for solar and wind. There will be a crash in those industries. Electric cars will be great toys for wealthy folks until they come up with competitive prices without subsidies. All we need to do is impose tariffs on all imported oil and gas from all nations aside from Canada. NIT: Add Mexico... If you are going to have a NAFTA(USMCTA) then... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 March 20, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: NIT: Add Mexico... If you are going to have a NAFTA(USMCTA) then... I thought about it but thought we were exporting to them so didn't. I agree if they have oil to spare! There is also some caribbean production nearby that we might want. Edited March 20, 2020 by ronwagn 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 20, 2020 19 hours ago, markslawson said: What oil bailouts are you referring to? What subsidies? Usually when I asked activists this their replies show that they have confused standard tax concessions - deductions for exploration expenses and so on which oil companies can claim - with subsidies. If you could point out what you're relying on I'll review it for you. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-prepares-multibillion-dollar-bailout-of-oil-and-gas-sector/ Sure it's Canada but US will get theirs soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 20, 2020 https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-20/a-trump-texas-oil-deal-opens-the-door-to-a-green-new-deal?srnd=premium&sref=RzXyyOXY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW March 20, 2020 Perhaps they simply don't need the subsidy any more? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,042 ML March 20, 2020 4 hours ago, Enthalpic said: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-prepares-multibillion-dollar-bailout-of-oil-and-gas-sector/ Sure it's Canada but US will get theirs soon. So that it? But that's a coronavirus thing and not much to do with production - teh government's trying to keep people in jobs. Its happening all over. Nothing to do with oil and gas as such. Sorry but I can't see any justification for your original statement. 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,042 ML March 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Enthalpic said: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-03-20/a-trump-texas-oil-deal-opens-the-door-to-a-green-new-deal?srnd=premium&sref=RzXyyOXY This doesn't involve subsidies.. read the article. Trump is talking about doing a deal with OPEC which may involve mandating cuts in domestic US oil production in order to stabilize prices. Again it doesn't prove your point.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,042 ML March 20, 2020 23 hours ago, Enthalpic said: They are coming just wait and see, and a subsidy can go by many names (tax breaks, "incentives", "strategic" purchases, etc.). A tax break is not a subsidy; a subsidy is not a tax break. If they're coming that means they haven't got here yet, so you're reacting to stuff you think might happen. I looked up the Trans Mountain pipeline deal which you must mean by your remarks on governments paying for pipelines - okay, that's a supposed $320 million in breaks/subsidies (by green industry estimates) now find and collect all the breaks/subsidies lavished on the renewables industry by the Canadian government. You will be disappointed by the comparison. Anyway, interesting point about the pipeline.. 1 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
George8944 + 128 March 20, 2020 On 3/19/2020 at 6:44 AM, Tom Kirkman said: The government now seems focused on getting renewable energy to stand on its own. ... There are really two ways for governments to effect a social change like the move to renewable energy. They can either subsidize or tax. I would be more in favor of increasing taxes on fossil fuels over the next decade or so, than building an industry that needs constant handouts to live. As things got more expensive due to the tax, companies would naturally provide a lower cost solution on their own. I'm glad to see the Chinese subsidies stop. I own shares of the US company, First Solar. They are also one of my customers. 3 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prometheus1354 + 178 March 21, 2020 On 3/19/2020 at 4:18 PM, Enthalpic said: They are coming just wait and see, and a subsidy can go by many names (tax breaks, "incentives", "strategic" purchases, etc.). If there were tax breaks on electric vehicles (waved sales tax for example) you know you would call that a subsidy. In Canada we are paying for pipelines directly with tax money. Building a multi billion dollar pipeline is a huge gift to the industry. Also bailing out the auto industry, airlines, etc. directly benefits the oil and gas industry. Typical Leftist response, Move the goalpost too deflect from the Nonsense spewed. You Hate the Oil industry. Period. Just sack up and admit too it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prometheus1354 + 178 March 21, 2020 On 3/19/2020 at 3:44 AM, Tom Kirkman said: "Renewable" Energy simply cannot survive without government subsidies (aka FREE MONEY). Especially when competing against exceedingly low oil & gas prices. "Renewable" energy train wreck coming soon to China. Far left Greenies can cry all they want. Let markets decide if the Green New Deal type enforced Socialism is feasible (it's not). China Takes Axe To Alternative Energy Funding, Slashing Subsidies For Solar And Wind Things might be going from bad to worse for Elon Musk and his merry band of alternative energy cultists in China. While Musk is currently in the midst of criticism from the Chinese government related to a bait and switch he is pulling on vehicle hardware (while blaming the coronavirus), the Chinese government appears to be set on slashing additional alternative energy subsidies in 2020. China is going to cut its budget for new solar power plants in half this year and plans on completely ending handouts for offshore wind farms, according to Caixin. It is the latest in a string of moves by the Chinese government to cut support for renewable energy. The attitude has shifted in recent years as manufacturing costs have dropped. The government now seems focused on getting renewable energy to stand on its own. ... Tom; Spot on sir, keep up the great job! 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 18 hours ago, markslawson said: This doesn't involve subsidies.. read the article. Trump is talking about doing a deal with OPEC which may involve mandating cuts in domestic US oil production in order to stabilize prices. Again it doesn't prove your point.. Many around here said that would never happen due to "free markets" in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Prometheus1354 said: Typical Leftist response, Move the goalpost too deflect from the Nonsense spewed. Moving goalposts haha has trump ever stuck to anything he said? Nonsense spewed? haha! I love the oil industry for the money - but hate the pollution. I saw, and prosecuted, the direct damage for many years. Edited March 21, 2020 by Enthalpic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 I almost like trump now that he is socialist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, markslawson said: A tax break is not a subsidy; a subsidy is not a tax break. If they're coming that means they haven't got here yet, so you're reacting to stuff you think might happen. I looked up the Trans Mountain pipeline deal which you must mean by your remarks on governments paying for pipelines - okay, that's a supposed $320 million in breaks/subsidies (by green industry estimates) now find and collect all the breaks/subsidies lavished on the renewables industry by the Canadian government. You will be disappointed by the comparison. Anyway, interesting point about the pipeline.. The pipeline will likely be close to 12.6 billion by the time it is built.... Huge gift. Edited March 21, 2020 by Enthalpic 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, markslawson said: A tax break is not a subsidy; a subsidy is not a tax break. If they're coming that means they haven't got here yet, so you're reacting to stuff you think might happen. BS - and when the bailouts come eat your words. Edited March 21, 2020 by Enthalpic Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enthalpic + 1,496 March 21, 2020 18 hours ago, markslawson said: So that it? But that's a coronavirus thing and not much to do with production - teh government's trying to keep people in jobs. Its happening all over. Nothing to do with oil and gas as such. Sorry but I can't see any justification for your original statement. No, it is a low oil price thing. Virus economic support is also happening - sucks both are happening at the same time. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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