NY Gov Cuomo (D) allowed hydroxychloroquine . It worked. He asked Trump for more. Look at NY stats. Mass Gov Baker (Rhino) would not allow. His stats continue to get worse.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

“no US college degree (She is working in Manufacturing Industry as QualityControl Engineer and is studying at night toward anIndustrial Engineer degree)“

Just curious here....how can she have no US college degree and be working as a QC engineer? Seems to be alot of engineers with no degree these days. Can you be a doctor or a lawyer without the appropriate degree? Can just anyone build a bridge or design a well now!

Yes, it is a sore point. I suffered for 6 years at the Colorado School of Mines to get my first degree, and the right to refer to myself as an engineer.

Anyone else feel this way?

Theoretically in the US, you can be a lawyer if you take the law apprenticeship path in some states, the challenge is you have to be employed by some attorney and do the self studying for the bar exams. In this modern world, it may require connection.

My wife was lucky. When she moved to USA in 2007 she has her first job in small manufacture, but was a supplier for and  Rockwell Collins, where she had the chance to work and learn in many departments and half of the employee are recent Vietnamese immigrants, so she has to do the translation for the training, HR, Insurances etc. She went to school at night for industrial certificates and when company grows, she was promoted and trained by very skills US Engineers (who may lose jobs in the Great Recession time). QC jobs back then was much less paperwork than now and less automation. I encourage her to go to college at night to get an Engineer degree. The most important reason is we still have to work for another 32 years and who knows how long will her job here last, will any future employer believe in her ability without a degree. Technologies changes faster and faster, especially in the US and she needs to get out of her comfort zone (the side effect is some pressure on current employer, they thought she wants to change her job).

Partly we love Engineer way to solve the problem. My mother's father has a Russian Chemical Engineer degree. My dad has a (equivalent) Master of Electrical Engineer in West Germany. My younger brother has a Computer Engineer degree in Singapore. I got Honors Degree in Software Engineer in NZ, so we love to add a US Engineer degree to the collection. I guess nowadays if you want to have a career in Manufacturing straight from High School. You need to get in the Industry first but you still need to go to college at night. Aim for the small manufacture because you can learn more less picky in the hiring. 

Talk about College Degrees, this is one thing Multi Media is misleading. The younger generations the more percentage of college degrees. So the concept of "people with college degrees" or "educated" simply a misleading way of saying younger generation, who are still emotional, ambitious in their missions and are convinced that they understand the problems and want to change the world yet they are naive and inexperienced. I was one. Many historical revolutions, for greater or worse, like  students movement in Tienanmen Square to The Great Leap Forward were capitalized form the ideology youths. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by SUZNV

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

What does this have to do with my question?

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What does this have to do with my 

Oops wrong thread...

Edited April 18, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[SUZNV + 1,197]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What does this have to do with my question?

Sorry, didn't understand fully your question until read this. Below is my opinion:

I agree the title engineer is overused, along with any other title (That why I persuade her to go for a formal degree at night). It is the name of the position my wife was filled in, so the title will be the same. I guess it allows the clients to have confident in the emails conversation and signing.

My wife's job is currently programming for automation vision part checks robots, and reading or correcting  the drawings with SOLIDWORKS and ensure the preparation for ISO and other standards checks. If she didn't catch the errors, then the shipment will be returned. Else hooray!

I believe the processes are: 1 get the drawing from client, 2 check if the drawing parameters are doable, discuss or clarify with the client engineers, 3 program the CNC machine or load the program, 4 setup the machine, 5 run the machine, 6 assembly, 7 checking dimensions with vision automation robot and the drawings, sign on it, 8 ship to client and explain with en queries. So her job is in 2 and 7. 

In my expertise where technologies changes every 5 to 8 years. Most of the technologies I am using is self taught on the jobs. The degree is just for helping me get the first job and that will decide my expertise (desktop and mobile engineer, dealing with cloud and visioning and sometimes web and database for prototype).  I would not have wasted time and money (as high as engineer student loan in the US) in College if I had have a IT job to earn money and pursuit a degree in my own time at night. College is not the only way to acquire knowledge. I think it is just a stepping stone for first job. In my Dad time in West Germany, if you were qualified as an engineer, then you must study on your own and pass the exams if you want another engineer degree. IMHO, engineer seems to be a methodology to learn, analyse and solve the problem with risks assessment. Our careers will be more than 40 years after graduated, should we hold on to the title we acquired at 24?

Reversely when I had no job for 1.5 year after graduation and had to work in no degree jobs, was I still qualified to refer myself as an engineer back then?

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by SUZNV

[crazy trip + 90]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:56 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

The Honorable Govenor Cuomo also felt that he, and New York, were entitled to each and every ventilator in the US stockpile, ignoring the fact that the other 49 states were at risk as well.

This shows his true character.

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

4 hours ago, SUZNV said:

Sorry, didn't understand fully your question until read this. Below is my opinion:

I agree the title engineer is overused, along with any other title (That why I persuade her to go for a formal degree at night). It is the name of the position my wife was filled in, so the title will be the same. I guess it allows the clients to have confident in the emails conversation and signing.

My wife's job is currently programming for automation vision part checks robots, and reading or correcting  the drawings with SOLIDWORKS and ensure the preparation for ISO and other standards checks. If she didn't catch the errors, then the shipment will be returned. Else hooray!

I believe the processes are: 1 get the drawing from client, 2 check if the drawing parameters are doable, discuss or clarify with the client engineers, 3 program the CNC machine or load the program, 4 setup the machine, 5 run the machine, 6 assembly, 7 checking dimensions with vision automation robot and the drawings, sign on it, 8 ship to client and explain with en queries. So her job is in 2 and 7. 

In my expertise where technologies changes every 5 to 8 years. Most of the technologies I am using is self taught on the jobs. The degree is just for helping me get the first job and that will decide my expertise (desktop and mobile engineer, dealing with cloud and visioning and sometimes web and database for prototype).  I would not have wasted time and money (as high as engineer student loan in the US) in College if I had have a IT job to earn money and pursuit a degree in my own time at night. College is not the only way to acquire knowledge. I think it is just a stepping stone for first job. In my Dad time in West Germany, if you were qualified as an engineer, then you must study on your own and pass the exams if you want another engineer degree. IMHO, engineer seems to be a methodology to learn, analyse and solve the problem with risks assessment. Our careers will be more than 40 years after graduated, should we hold on to the title we acquired at 24?

Reversely when I had no job for 1.5 year after graduation and had to work in no degree jobs, was I still qualified to refer myself as an engineer back then?

 

If you have an engineering degree, it is legal and proper to claim that you are an engineer (unless you drive trains...). If you do not, do not claim that you are something that you are not, it diminishes the accomplishments of others. 
Granted, if you do not have a legal or engineering degree, but can pass the state bar exam or pass the professional engineers exam, then that would qualify you, but this is rare.

You need a heavy equipment license to operate heavy equipment, you are required to have a CDL to drive commercial trucks, you need a teaching certificate to teach....you need an engineering degree to engineer.

The degree does help you get the ‘first job’, and the experience you gain on the job is critical to your performance. That said, when you go looking for the ‘next’ job, they will want to see your degree.

[crazy trip + 90]

Some may remember how Cuomo brayed and blatted ,on national TV, his need for 30,000 ventilators or the sky was going to fall. I get that he was on board with the deeply flawed models that this entire panic is based on. This does not excuse his ignoring of his own Heath Department’s advice to stockpile 16,000 ventilators in the event of a another sever pandemic. 
 The 275 page report is all inclusive and was issued in 2015. Check pages 30-34 for validation that Cuomo was well aware of the problem, and chose not to replenish the stockpile, brought on by the Swine Flu pandemic of 2010.
 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

17 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

If you have an engineering degree, it is legal and proper to claim that you are an engineer (unless you drive trains...). If you do not, do not claim that you are something that you are not, it diminishes the accomplishments of others. 
Granted, if you do not have a legal or engineering degree, but can pass the state bar exam or pass the professional engineers exam, then that would qualify you, but this is rare.

You need a heavy equipment license to operate heavy equipment, you are required to have a CDL to drive commercial trucks, you need a teaching certificate to teach....you need an engineering degree to engineer.

The degree does help you get the ‘first job’, and the experience you gain on the job is critical to your performance. That said, when you go looking for the ‘next’ job, they will want to see your degree.

With current normal Resume, it has Education section, and you list your degrees there. Then in the Employment history, then it has a list with Employer names, job titles and your responsibilities/job descriptions.

So the "Engineer"  title in Employment History listing, it is your job title. In that context,  you can have technician, associate engineer, engineer, senior engineer, principal engineer, manager , director, vice president etc. Job title is assigned to you by the employer, by promotion or by apply for the job advertising.

The job interviewer will always aware of your degree and decide to give you the job or not. The interview may check your title when they ring up your ex employer reference.. When they give you the job, along with the job is your title which you will use in your signature in any work email. 

It is illegal if you put in an Engineer degree you don't have in Resume's Education section. I think most of University websites allow you to look up the employee name. You don't need to bring your degree with you to the interview. 

I am curious,  Do you often see people with no Engineer degree claim they have one?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

34 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

With current normal Resume, it has Education section, and you list your degrees there. Then in the Employment history, then it has a list with Employer names, job titles and your responsibilities/job descriptions.

So the "Engineer"  title in Employment History listing, it is your job title. In that context,  you can have technician, associate engineer, engineer, senior engineer, principal engineer, manager , director, vice president etc. Job title is assigned to you by the employer, by promotion or by apply for the job advertising.

The job interviewer will always aware of your degree and decide to give you the job or not. The interview may check your title when they ring up your ex employer reference.. When they give you the job, along with the job is your title which you will use in your signature in any work email. 

It is illegal if you put in an Engineer degree you don't have in Resume's Education section. I think most of University websites allow you to look up the employee name. You don't need to bring your degree with you to the interview. 

I am curious,  Do you often see people with no Engineer degree claim they have one?

Yes, I have had people come in for an interview claiming to have degrees, but when I did the follow up check, they did not.

In many countries, you must bring your original diploma to the interview, or a notarized copy.

Companies should never include the title ‘Engineer’ in jobs where the applicant is not required to have an engineering degree, this is half of the problem! It should indicate an engineering technician or engineering assistant, but not engineer.

In some places I have seen garbage collectors labelled as ‘Sanitation Engineers’.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Just as an aside, one one job in Brunei, I was looking for a Drilling Supervisor. This job does not require a degree, but one of the applicants had a degree in Animal Husbandry, which amused me and made me curious. I called his referrals, and one gave him a terrible referral! So now I am even more curious. Why would a guy list a referral who was obviously less than happy with him?

Anyway, I finally called the guy to get his side of the story. He did in fact have a degree in animal husbandry, and his referral was annoyed at him as, just before he left them, he had identified a problem with the rig in Indonesia. His previous owner ignored the problem, and the rig eventually blew out.

I ended up hiring the guy and he is still one of the top three drilling hands I have ever met! No engineering experience but tons of hands on experience. I subsequently hired him again in Tunisia and Papua New Guinea. He is presently stuck in Saudi Arabia and trying to get back home to Canada.

After awhile, there is no substitute for experience. You need to be careful here as well! I have had guys tell me, “I’ve got 20 years of experience!” But in that time they had simply done the same thing they did the first year, for the next 19 years. This is not the same as 20 years of experience...

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

For info.  We used to hold CELEBRATIONS of the discovery of QUININE. Newspaper editorial from 1930.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1817&dat=19300623&id=UdE-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=hkwMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3211,2832686

 

[Ernst Reim + 33]

On 4/17/2020 at 1:07 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

You were doing just fine until the ‘You f**ks‘ and the ‘f**k**g liars’ comment. That is beyond the pale for this site. Furthermore, it tends to cause people to suspect that you can’t support your argument without cussing.

While I think I disagree with nearly 90% of Douglas' political statements, I cannot stress enough how much I liked to see this comment. My thanks, Douglas!

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 4/16/2020 at 10:02 PM, Ron Ron said:

the concern was about Covid-19 overwhelming the healthcare system.

 

(Don't mind me, I'm just bored and am temporarily become a meme terrorist for amusement.)