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Thats why we voted to get out of the damn thing , now we just need to stay alive....

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4 hours ago, ronwagn said:
Quote

 

The truth is that there is no "Union".

The coronavirus now has put the European Union and its comfort zone face-to-face with all its weaknesses, decadence and cowardice.

Another merciless battle Italy fought with the EU was for protective face-masks. France adopted a policy of requisitioning them; Germany banned their export. Those unilateral decisions undermined a much-touted EU principle: the free movement of goods in the single market.

As L'Express exposed, France seized four million masks belonging to a Swedish company and that had been intended, in part, for Italy and Spain.

When Italy and Greece were overwhelmed by migrants from the Middle East and Africa, the EU countries refused to take their "share" of migrants. Lacking a policy to stop the flow of mass immigration, Europe decided to leave the southern countries to their fate.

 

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Hey Ron, it might be a good idea to offer a thumbnail or a summary in a new thread, rather than just posting a link.

I'm aware your site is a huge compendium of docs and links, but adding a quick summary of the link might get a bit more interest.

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It isn't really possible for the Eurozone to continue. The initial benefit to Germany was not met with any benefit to the economies of the South, but only for their government's finances, which were offered unrealistically low interest rates because of their membership in EMU.

But having a fixed exchange with a better competitively positioned N. Europe made S, Europe impossible. They could no longer adjust their currency to compensate for competitive deficiencies that they could or would not address. So they were hollowed out, and trade deals by the EU put them at a further disadvantage to ex EU imports as they had Lira and Franc productivity but German mark pricing. But for Germans and Dutch this controlled inflation.

Anyway, the EU project is looking doomed, the EMU is going to be broken, as the south will take its dominant position in the ECB and force Germany to take a weaker Euro or leave, which Germany probably will if the South remains politically unified. Unlike recent history where they didn't hold their ground. This time there is no choice.  Germany will have to decide what to do while the ECB is loaded with Italian and Greek toxic bonds as Lagarde is forced by the committee to buy them regardless of the financial mess. 

 

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6 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

But having a fixed exchange with a better competitively positioned N. Europe made S, Europe impossible. They could no longer adjust their currency to compensate for competitive deficiencies that they could or would not address. So they were hollowed out, and trade deals by the EU put them at a further disadvantage to ex EU imports as they had Lira and Franc productivity but German mark pricing. But for Germans and Dutch this controlled inflation.

Monetary union without unified fiscal union does not work; people here have been saying that for 15+ years. 

7 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

It isn't really possible for the Eurozone to continue. The initial benefit to Germany was not met with any benefit to the economies of the South, but only for their government's finances, which were offered unrealistically low interest rates because of their membership in EMU.

The Alternative is a tighter and stronger EU. Necessity is the mother of invention. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

why do people with no skin in the European game take such interest??? 

EXACTLY! Now you know how I felt when I started that thread!

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37 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Monetary union without unified fiscal union does not work; people here have been saying that for 15+ years. 

The Alternative is a tighter and stronger EU. Necessity is the mother of invention. 

 

The fiscal union is impossible. It means that the cartel of governments against their people that the EC is, would be superseded by a single governing structure that would eliminate the power of national governments, but retain their bureaucracy's power, just subjugated to a central structure. That is not a possibility. It pits the bureaucracy against the politicians. They won't win that one. The politicians will blow up the union first.

The EU goal is a dictatorship of the administrative class. They have long ago taken over from geopolitical and economic thinkers as the drivers of "ever more Europe". They deserve to be broken up. And the way things are going that will happen quite rapidly. I wish them an easy time finding new jobs. 

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51 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The fiscal union is impossible. It means that the cartel of governments against their people that the EC is, would be superseded by a single governing structure that would eliminate the power of national governments, but retain their bureaucracy's power, just subjugated to a central structure. That is not a possibility. It pits the bureaucracy against the politicians. They won't win that one. The politicians will blow up the union first.

The EU goal is a dictatorship of the administrative class. They have long ago taken over from geopolitical and economic thinkers as the drivers of "ever more Europe". They deserve to be broken up. And the way things are going that will happen quite rapidly. I wish them an easy time finding new jobs. 

Let's see. Give it 5 - 10 years. 

I understand and respect why you want to believe the EU will die. I understand why Trump wants it to die.... We live in a uncertain world. I would much rather a functioning EU looking after my global interests than relying on American wims that is really on based on a mercantilist approach to trade... 

People said Trump wouldn't get elected. 

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1 minute ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Let's see. Give it 5 - 10 years. 

I understand and respect why you want to believe the EU will die. I understand why Trump wants it to die.... We live in a uncertain world. I would much rather a functioning EU looking after my global interests than relying on American wims that is really on based on a mercantilist approach to trade... 

People said Trump wouldn't get elected. 

Okay, but what is wrong with maintaining your national identity and each nation forging their own trade deals? Just asking...

Was the ‘old’ Europe really so bad?

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2 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay, but what is wrong with maintaining your national identity and each nation forging their own trade deals? Just asking...

Was the ‘old’ Europe really so bad?

I have truckloads more in common with European than I do with Chinese. Just like a New Yorker is different to a Texan... they are both still Americans... 

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16 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I have truckloads more in common with European than I do with Chinese. Just like a New Yorker is different to a Texan... they are both still Americans... 

Yeah but ones a Democrat and the other is a Republican!🤣

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22 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I have truckloads more in common with European than I do with Chinese. Just like a New Yorker is different to a Texan... they are both still Americans... 

Not a reasonable analogy. New York and Texas are States within the same country.

Do you have more in common with your own countrymen as opposed to those of other European countries? This would be more to the point.

How, or why, did you bring the Chinese into this discussion?

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7 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

New York and Texas are States within the same country.

It wasn't always. That's my point. 

8 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Do you have more in common with your own countrymen as opposed to those of other European countries? This would be more to the point.

Not from my perspective. 

The future of my country and the future of my kids depends on global "deals". I would much rather my interest represented by the EU than accepting the mercantilist tariff that @0R0 rigthfully analyses that the US wants to charge. The necessary consequence of this is of course Europe paying for their own security. 

NB! Denmark is a small country dependant on trade; but many of the European countries are similar. 

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20 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How, or why, did you bring the Chinese into this discussion?

Follow the One Belt, One Road.  It winds through the EU.

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“New York and Texas are States within the same country.

It wasn't always. That's my point. “
 

How many European countries existed, in their present state, 300 years ago?

So you are taking one State out of 50 and referring to ancient (American) history. Wouldn’t you say that you ‘cherry picked’ scenario?

Are you saying that a ‘foreign’ conglomerate would have more of your interests in mind than your own government?

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37 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How many European countries existed, in their present state, 300 years ago?

Well...

- Denmark & Norway was 1 country broken into 2 in 1814;

- Germany was not unified until napoleon;

- Italy was not unfied until 1870 

So... 

42 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Are you saying that a ‘foreign’ conglomerate would have more of your interests in mind than your own government?

I am saying that a conglomorate where we have a seat at the board is better than accepting US mercantilist terms... @0R0 is absolutely rigth that this is what Trumps wants

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1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

It wasn't always. That's my point. 

Not from my perspective. 

The future of my country and the future of my kids depends on global "deals". I would much rather my interest represented by the EU than accepting the mercantilist tariff that @0R0 rigthfully analyses that the US wants to charge. The necessary consequence of this is of course Europe paying for their own security. 

NB! Denmark is a small country dependant on trade; but many of the European countries are similar. 

The US mercantilist conditions are not harsh. Just drop a collection of EU trade impediments and end subsidies for exports. Particularly take off VAT or allow a tariff adjustment against it.

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Fair enough, it is your call. Americans would never give up our national identity...but, heck, we’re nothing but a nation of gun toting, hayseed rednecks...

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Should add that Trump cares little whether the EU as a whole is signed up or just particular countries after it falls apart. He just considers it difficult to negotiate with a troupe of cats pretending only one represents them all. 

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3 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Should add that Trump cares little whether the EU as a whole is signed up or just particular countries after it falls apart. He just considers it difficult to negotiate with a troupe of cats pretending only one represents them all. 

Trump wants a negotiation position where the US is the big dog... it is easier getting concessions that way. Simple really. And I have no problem with it. Really.  

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As you say, Europe would have to pay for its own defense. But that is not all of it, it would have to defend its trade routes. They have an imaginary closed loop system that would recycle all the imported materials and use renewable energy. I don't believe the scheme is workable, and Germany is both a big exporter and importer of components and materials. 

If Europe behaves on its own the way it has under the US umbrella, then Turkey will control Greece and most of the Balkans and Russia will overtake the Baltic states, Poland and Ukraine.  

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11 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Fair enough, it is your call. Americans would never give up our national identity...but, heck, we’re nothing but a nation of gun toting, hayseed rednecks...

With oil thats nae worth taking ooot the groond.

America is a loose term your supposed to be the UNITED States of America - United is very debatable.

Our Kingdon is United other than we hate the English...

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12 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Fair enough, it is your call. Americans would never give up our national identity...but, heck, we’re nothing but a nation of gun toting, hayseed rednecks...

Just like the gun totin Brit rednecks  (hat tip to Rob Plant)

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