A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[UNC12345 + 171]

51 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

He was advised incorrectly, by people who were apparently promoting the spread of the disease, including the CDC, Fauci's NIH section, and many others who gave deliberately incorrect information

How do you know this?  You don't know FA.  Stop spewing nonsense.

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, Geoff Guenther said:

Except this isn't a war. You don't go to war with a virus. Trump wants to be a wartime president because it's impossible for him to empathise and tend to people. Going to war with China will just make the problem worse.

What the country needs is a viable strategy to get out of the lock down and deal with hotspots as they appear. A four-star medical General, if you will. So far Trump has not hired anyone that is up to that job. He should be looking for an Eisenhower - the guy behind the desk who understands the problem and is able to exert brilliant leadership.

That is absolutely untrue. The Chinese have been planning to go to war with a virus, having made explicit statements of the matter. It is the basis of all of their military operations.

The need for an Eisenhower is great . Finding one is difficult because we have not had anything to run for a test bed from which such excellence could arise.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 minute ago, UNC12345 said:

How do you know this?  You don't know FA.  Stop spewing nonsense.

I know what they said. I know it was false, promoted the spread of the virus, prevented the advent of testing, prevents trials of medications based on fake medical reports. Hence they are precisely what I say they are. 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

4 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The need for an Eisenhower is great . Finding one is difficult because we have not had anything to run for a test bed from which such excellence could arise.

I think there have been several people that could have fit the bill. Unfortunately, they lose the authority they need when the president undercuts them.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

14 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

He should be looking for an Eisenhower - the guy behind the desk who understands the problem and is able to exert brilliant leadership.

I rather suspect you are talking about me. 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

 People swallow all things media say and spew back, an no one in the US would expect media says something nice about Trump. Why did no media suggest these actions back then or CDC or NIH suggest anything back then? Oh, they were busy with publishing what WHO and China said. And now they all go on why didn't you do this and that with no responsibility for spreading the lies of WHO and China. They forgot what they said back then and have a very short memory. I give up. 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

And the spread of the virus from New York into the rest of the US looks like the spread of the virus from Wuhan to the rest of the world. The malicious behaviour of New Yorkers or of Trump is obvious. Well, not really. Wuhan is bigger than New York.  Both of them are massive hubs. New York probably had 5,000 infections before anyone knew they were infected.

Why do some Americans think of everything in terms of war? Don't you ever get tired of guns and wish that people could just be nice, like they are in most countries?

This is a crisis which no country is singularly able to solve. China will be shipping well over 3 billion facemasks each month starting next month. It's something no place else on earth could have ramped up so quickly. We need China to help stem the crisis, but the current Administration is going to pretend they're great warriors and try to get support by playing the race card. SMH

Hi Geoff.  Are you living in China?

[0R0 + 6,251]

55 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Oh, so the buck doesn't stop with him. Poor little Donald, he was told incorrect things from the CDC.

The dumbest things that I hear Trumpists say are "it was a joke" and "it wasn't his fault". Guess what? Any other president goes by "the buck stops here."

He's a president that fires any staff that are smarter than him and refuses to listen to anyone that says anything he doesn't like. The buck stops with him.

You will see in the coming weeks where the buck is sent. It is unlikely to be Trump's Oval office desk. 

Where it should or shouldn't go is another matter. But if you fell for a fraud ring and took your investors with you, is it you who gets prosecuted or the fraudsters?

[SUZNV + 1,197]

6 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hi Geoff.  Are you living in China?

You don't have to live in China to hate Trump.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

11 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

 People swallow all things media say and spew back, an no one in the US would expect media says something nice about Trump. Why did no media suggest these actions back then or CDC or NIH suggest anything back then? Oh, they were busy with publishing what WHO and China said. And now they all go on why didn't you do this and that with no responsibility for spreading the lies of WHO and China. They forgot what they said back then and have a very short memory. I give up.

Have ou conveniently forgotten that WHO got the virus out of China and the Germans had a test by Jan 17th? And that WHO declared this an international emergency on the 30th? Just because you believe anything Trump says doesn't mean you should.

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Any mid-sized company should have a risk strategy. I took a team through a hurricane in Houston and we had the traders up and running two days before any of our competition. And we made good money because we actually planned.

Arguably, the president's most important job is in keeping Americans safe. If it looks like there's something that could be disastrous for the country and there's a 10% chance it could happen his entire team should be sweating to mitigate the problem. That is really simple risk management.

How detrimental is the risk if it comes to fruition, how likely is it to happen, and what is the cost and options to mitigate? Every middle manager has come across this.

For a guy whose primary responsibility is to keep Americans safe it's pretty shambolic.

Consider that the people who agree with you were also the people who advised the President to do as he did, told hi there was testing when there wasn't, told him that there were few positive cases because of that rather than because the FDA forbade all hospitals and labs to perform tests, and the CDC forbade anyone other than itself to run them and then only ran a handful a day. That would put you among the fraud ring that surrounded the issue since it first popped up, and was setup around the president so that all he heard from the medical establishment was what was good for them.  

[Ron Ron + 18]

1 hour ago, SUZNV said:

To be fair, no one could lie if they never sure about the future.  Stock markets have lots of prediction, all of the are lying? The decision based on China and WHO data with some preparation for uncertainty but not in this much difference. What were you expected him to say back then if he didn't have the mid April's number of death in March? You are sitting next to a dying person and he is worrying and he is looking for some hope, would you tell him:"you will die for sure"?

And you sound like the mainstream were encouraging people to trust Trump for the last 3 years and now he failed them. So mainstream and Governors failed no one so far? Because they trust in Trump' s leadership until now?

Do you think China CCP and WHO have any responsibility in their data? No, you think they did a good job, but not Trump and the whole world leaders believe in it, even you still believe in now, so why would you accuse a person believe in these number back then?

And what would you be so sure about China data anyway? The China neighbor was doing well because they don't trust China nor WHO.

Except, the experts recognized the threat. I think Trump’s problem is he does not understand what an exponential function means. Simply the fact that China LOCKED DOWN Wuhan and Hebei province suggested that there was an ongoing healthcare crisis involving. As early as January, epidemiologist and infectious disease experts were aware of the looming crisis. Keep in mind early on Trump insisted that the 3.4 death rate released by China was an exaggeration. In some parts of the US the death rates in some areas are as high as 5% to 7%. Finally, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan had access to the same data and WHO reports and acted on them. 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

Just now, 0R0 said:

Consider that the people who agree with you were also the people who advised the President to do as he did, told hi there was testing when there wasn't, told him that there were few positive cases because of that rather than because the FDA forbade all hospitals and labs to perform tests, and the CDC forbade anyone other than itself to run them and then only ran a handful a day. That would put you among the fraud ring that surrounded the issue since it first popped up, and was setup around the president so that all he heard from the medical establishment was what was good for them.  

If I were part of the fraud ring I'm sure I'd be rich by now. I'm growing fond of my generals analogy, now. You can't fire all your generals and expect a coordinated response.

Did you watch Soderberg's Contagion? I was amazed to see them order, what was it, Clearance Level 3s to destroy their samples - only Clearance Level 4s were allowed to have them. Of course, a Clearance Level 3 disregarded the order and finished his tests and allowed the country to get a jump on the virus.

It was pretty amazing to watch the FDA do exactly the same thing as in the movie. Except this time it was University of Washington that did the tests and showed that the virus was spreading. Sadly, there was no one in the Whitehouse to coordinate with the FDA because they'd been fired.

Life imitates art.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Geoff Guenther said:

This is a crisis which no country is singularly able to solve. China will be shipping well over 3 billion facemasks each month starting next month. It's something no place else on earth could have ramped up so quickly. We need China to help stem the crisis, but the current Administration is going to pretend they're great warriors and try to get support by playing the race card. SMH

195,000 deaths, Geoff.  Shipping facemasks next month is in some way supposed to make atonement?  Hell, there is still debate as to whether or not they even work.  Don't agree with me?  Why is the world shut down?  If the masks are so wonderful and effective, why are we locked down at all.  Your point with this statement is what?  Certain actors in China couldn't have done anything wrong; they're sending facemasks!?!?  195,000 deaths, Geoff.

Race card?  Really?  So, if your country had started this whole thing and we called your country out on it, we would be "playing the race card"?  I'm pretty sure you have read the numerous statements on this forum from men married to Chinese, people like myself who spent years living and working in China and still love many things about it and its people to this day, people who tell you they have no problem at all with Chinese people but that the CCP is blatantly a different matter. 

I could go on and on, and it looks like, from reading your posts prior to and after the above one, I'll have to to try and pry you out of your cocoon of blindness.  195,000 deaths, Geoff.

[0R0 + 6,251]

Just now, Geoff Guenther said:

Have ou conveniently forgotten that WHO got the virus out of China and the Germans had a test by Jan 17th? And that WHO declared this an international emergency on the 30th? Just because you believe anything Trump says doesn't mean you should.

You are forgetting that Trump did not have control over the CDC operations till he got the message that they and the FDA were actively sabotaging the testing effort, providing false advice in public etc. He then managed to clamp down on them by using national security law and signing them onto appropriate documents to provide some leverage over them. He begrudgingly took out emergency powers in order to be able to twist the arm of the FDA to do its job and disentangle it from its own internal red tape. You are attributing to him control where he didn't have it, and allocating this malicious fraud of saboteurs to the administration that trusted the "professionals".  

The WHO also declared that there was no human to human transmission, no aerosol transmission, no transmission by touch. They suggested you go on flying and that it was unnecessary to stop Chinese flights. The suggested you don't use gloves and masks, the CDC and NIH followed. The CDC and FDA then PREVENTED anyone from producing or applying tests during this time. That is exactly the opposite of what they were telling the administration. 

I think it washes every error on Trump's part as it is both huge in scale and malicious intent, while at worst, Trump made a mistake. 

If Trump and his supporters have their way, the outcome of this is going to be a denuding of international organizations of funding and governments of authority and an enormous PR smear of the medical establishment and the Dems. 

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

2 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

195,000 deaths, Geoff.  Shipping facemasks next month is in some way supposed to make atonement?  Hell, there is still debate as to whether or not they even work.  Don't agree with me?  Why is the world shut down?  If the masks are so wonderful and effective, why are we locked down at all.  Your point with this statement is what?  Certain actors in China couldn't have done anything wrong; they're sending facemasks!?!?  195,000 deaths, Geoff.

Race card?  Really?  So, if your country had started this whole thing and we called your country out on it, we would be "playing the race card"?  I'm pretty sure you have read the numerous statements on this forum from men married to Chinese, people like myself who spent years living and working in China and still love many things about it and its people to this day, people who tell you they have no problem at all with Chinese people but that the CCP is blatantly a different matter. 

I could go on and on, and it looks like, from reading your posts prior to and after the above one, I'll have to to try and pry you out of your cocoon of blindness.  195,000 deaths, Geoff.

I realize you're really mad, but consider this: The majority of Canada's cases have come from the US (or they did at one point). Should Canada be suing the US for being so incapable of dealing with the virus?

First things first - Canada needs to work with the US to contain the disease in the continent.

All this talk of starting a war with China, whether hot or economic, is unproductive. It's just a way to get Trump's base riled up behind him.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I realize you're really mad, but consider this: The majority of Canada's cases have come from the US (or they did at one point). Should Canada be suing the US for being so incapable of dealing with the virus?

First things first - Canada needs to work with the US to contain the disease in the continent.

All this talk of starting a war with China, whether hot or economic, is unproductive. It's just a way to get Trump's base riled up behind him.

Mate some kind of war hot or cold was always on the cards with China

The writing was on the walls for years

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

From 1966 to 1970 I did research on dangerous viruses. We didn't have great protective gear and we didn't have hand sanitizers. We had ultraviolet radiation in an "ultraviolet curtain," and we had bleach. Whenever my lab partner or I changed the culture medium of tissue cells (L929 mouse fibroblasts or HeLa) we'd dip our hands in dilute bleach solution (about 20:1). It worked better than soap and water.

Bleach, first thing I bought extra after hearing about the virus in January.  Already own ozone machine so does mail, food, clothes when placed in a large cardboard box. 

PS: Bleach 20:1 diluteant works VERY well as mouth wash. Vastly superior to anything alcohol based as it does not dry your tissue out.  In fact, if you can only buy bleach or toothpaste, you are far better off with bleach.  A gallon costs ~$1.  Toothpaste?  $4 and the gallon of bleach will last a quarter of your lifetime while the toothpaste disappears in a half year.  Haven't used toothpaste for decades now. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

19 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I realize you're really mad, but consider this: The majority of Canada's cases have come from the US (or they did at one point).

How many Chinese traveled to Vancouver for New Years again???  🤣

Who was case #1 in Vancouver again?  Oh right, a man traveling from Wuhan in JANUARY... https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-here-are-all-the-b-c-cases-of-the-novel-coronavirus/

EDIT: For Tornoto etc: https://www.vancourier.com/timeline-of-covid-19-cases-in-canada-1.24085383

All from WUHAN

Stop your lies dude.  Just stop. 

Grow a conscience soon please. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I've been to farmers markets and had street food in Africa, Vietnam, around Europe. You think they're much different? Just because in America everyone wants everything sanitised doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that. Besides, how do you know that that pig you bought for the spit roast hadn't just eaten bat guano?

If that's your only point, I think it's pretty weak.

Now, let's see, you are going to educate the people on this forum about "farmer's markets"?  You've been around.  Good for you. 

I lived for 9 years in China.  I lived for 1 year in India.  I now live in Thailand, and have for the past, oh, 7 years.  I LOVED Chinese markets.  You write as if you have been to Chinese markets, just that you didn't have the money to go to the ones where they keep the "exotic" animals.  Those markets do exist in Asia, Geoff, you're right.  But those aren't the markets you have to go to to get bats.  Bats, rats, scorpions, etc.?  They are in the everyday "farmer's markets" in China.  But you knew that, didn't you, Geoff? 

To say something as naive, or even condescending, as "Just because in America everyone wants everything sanitised doesn't mean the rest of the world is like that" makes me wonder who got ahold of your brain since we last debated on this site.  Because the old Geoff would have reminded all and sundry that the reason ANY other country "wants" everything sanitized is because they don't want disease!  In fact, "most" people aren't/weren't aware of the necessity of clean markets, years ago; their governments had to force them to be so to stop disease.

China, on the other hand, has known about the diseases that come from their particular version of "farmer's markets" and infect not only their country but others, since, what, 20 years ago!?!?  Is that not enough time for them to clean up certain parts, just certain parts, of their "farmer's markets"?  You emphasized that America is at least partly responsible for its large number of deaths because it didn't use its extra, relative to China, 2 months to get prepared and defend itself.  Maybe so.  Maybe if we'd have just had 3 fuxxing billion masks delivered from the people who let the damned virus get started and spread in the first place!

195,000 deaths, Geoff.  Wake up, man.  You didn't used to be the type to defend bad actors.  I for one am not one of the bad actors, and I don't think anyone else on this site is either, except the Chinese trolls and bots, but they are to be expected.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

3 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

You are forgetting that Trump did not have control over the CDC operations

Trump fired the head of the Pandemic Response Team in 2018.  He also reduced the CDC's international budget by 90%, forcing them to pull out of most countries and lessening their presence in China.  https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-trump-united-states-public-health-emergency-response/

9 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

He then managed to clamp down on them by using national security law and signing them onto appropriate documents to provide some leverage over them.

He finally used his emergency powers AFTER everyone was mad at him for not coordinating. The fact that he had gotten rid of the Pandemic Response Team was the reason for them being uncoordinated. This was entirely within his remit.

 

10 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The WHO also declared that there was no human to human transmission, no aerosol transmission, no transmission by touch.

Yes, they did tweet that. However, they also retracted that and declared this an international emergency. The fact that he found ONE item that he could hold onto as blame does not absolve him of anything. WHO is not perfect, but they did push China until they got virus samples.

14 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

They suggested you go on flying and that it was unnecessary to stop Chinese flights.

The WHO did NOT suggest it was unnecessary to stop Chinese flights, they suggested that countries don't go too far.

20 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

The suggested you don't use gloves and masks,

I have no source on this, but Public Health England says "PHE is not recommending the use of gloves as a protective measure against COVID-19 for the general public." They even put out a video of why it can even be counterproductive to wear goves to the grocers.

 

I'm not seeing that the Whitehouse or Trump were being fed misinformation. WHO has, for the most part, been quite hawkish on this. The Whitehouse was getting briefed about COVID-19 by people in WHO right through January.

The CCP is something like the USSR, though. Everything that is officially put out has a grain of truth but you have to read between the lines to understand what they're saying. If he was just going by their press releases then that's a big problem.

[Geoff Guenther + 317]

9 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

How many Chinese traveled to Vancouver for New Years again???  🤣

Who was case #1 in Vancouver again?  Oh right, a man traveling from Wuhan in JANUARY... https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/covid-19-here-are-all-the-b-c-cases-of-the-novel-coronavirus/

EDIT: For Tornoto etc: https://www.vancourier.com/timeline-of-covid-19-cases-in-canada-1.24085383

All from WUHAN

Stop your lies dude.  Just stop. 

Grow a conscience soon please. 

You're doing your best to misconstrue my point, but read it and weep:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/03/06/most-of-canadas-recent-new-cases-of-covid-19-are-linked-to-the-us/#10cfa4285886

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

22 minutes ago, Geoff Guenther said:

I realize you're really mad, but consider this: The majority of Canada's cases have come from the US (or they did at one point). Should Canada be suing the US for being so incapable of dealing with the virus?

First things first - Canada needs to work with the US to contain the disease in the continent.

All this talk of starting a war with China, whether hot or economic, is unproductive. It's just a way to get Trump's base riled up behind him.

Now you are going to tell us about Canada and how cases came from America.  And that is relevant to the Chinese government allowing their "farmer's markets" to continue in such a way as to infect not only their own country, but just about every other country in the world?  Really, Geoff.

I don't care about suing, I don't even fantasize about going to war.  I actually don't love guns, if you can believe it.  Others wish to own them to protect themselves from governments run amok, and I am thankful that by doing so they make a statement to our government that it is probably not a good idea to get too far out of line when it comes to trampling on any and all of our rights.

Canada is working with the U.S. to contain the disease.  The U.S. is working with just about every country on earth to eradicate this disease.  The United States, in case you haven't been paying attention since WWII, is a leader in this area.

Getting Trump's base "riled up" is not what is going on.  Americans can smell BS without any help from Donald Trump.  In fact, that might be why he was elected.  Hmm.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

35 minutes ago, Ron Ron said:

Except, the experts recognized the threat. I think Trump’s problem is he does not understand what an exponential function means. Simply the fact that China LOCKED DOWN Wuhan and Hebei province suggested that there was an ongoing healthcare crisis involving. As early as January, epidemiologist and infectious disease experts were aware of the looming crisis. Keep in mind early on Trump insisted that the 3.4 death rate released by China was an exaggeration. In some parts of the US the death rates in some areas are as high as 5% to 7%. Finally, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan had access to the same data and WHO reports and acted on them. 

Which experts, names and institutions, and links to their article on mainstream in Jan 2020?  Seems WHO has no expert warned any other countries about this.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

1 minute ago, Geoff Guenther said:

You're doing your best to misconstrue my point, but read it and weep:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/03/06/most-of-canadas-recent-new-cases-of-covid-19-are-linked-to-the-us/#10cfa4285886

Yea right, take the word of Canadas health officials or Forbes based... in NY on March 6th when we KNOW incubation time is ~2 weeks...  Which means those from Wuhan traveling had PLENTY of time to spread it and those infected to spread it throughout Canada... just as my link from CANADAS own health officials show. 

Keep your lies flowing. 

Keep digging your hole deeper.