Hydrogen car dreams float away

[markslawson + 1,042]

After 30 Years Of Trying, Mercedes-Benz Ends Hydrogen Car Development Because It’s Too Costly
 

Saw this item in a newsletter. It about sums up the problems for hydrogen cars. The technology can be made to work but its far too expensive, especially when going up against well-established competition. Car makers need volume but no one is going to buy simply because of zero net emissions.. M-B is now going to put more effort into electric cars. Good luck with that.

 

Electrek, 23 April 2020
Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz is killing its program to develop passenger cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

The company has been working on fuel-cell vehicles for more than 30 years — chasing the dream of a zero-emissions car that has a long driving range, three-minute fill-ups, and emits only water vapor. In the end, the company conceded that building hydrogen cars was too costly, about double the expense of an equivalent battery-electric vehicle.

Mercedes-Benz will wind down production of GLC F-Cell, its only current fuel-cell model. The GLC-F-Cell was developed in a 2013 collaboration with Ford and Nissan.

The idea of the collaboration was to kickstart the production of fuel-cell cars and hydrogen infrastructure. Mercedes-Benz was the only carmaker of the three partners to produce a vehicle in the program.

Mercedes-Benz only made a few hundred examples of the GLC F-Cell because manufacturing costs for the model were so high. The car was used for business promotions but was never offered for sale to the public.

Daimler research boss Markus Schäfer in January said:
 
"Fuel cells work great. It’s just a cost issue, and it’s all about scaling. We need volume.
 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Hydrogen cars have long been a joke. But now they have to get serious about competition from Tesla. Tesla is annihilating Mercedes and BMW in California and the new Tesla factory in Germany is under construction.

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

During the first term of Gov Schwarzenegger; he famously touted how here in California we were gonna lead the country into the a new age of transportation. This was gonna be accomplished two fold:

1. The now infamous High Speed Rail system (train to nowhere) and 2. A Hydrogen Highway.  The TTN is still being rammed down our throats thanks to Sen. DiFi and her Hubby whose construction company conspicuously won a $1.1 Billion dollar contract to 'build' the initial segments of said system.

The Hydrogen Highway was supposed to help spur on development of Hydrogen fuel cell powered cars here in CA.  The state along with most of the auto makers set up a consortium to collaborate on electric and fuel cell design.  So far zip.  Now to be fair, Tesla have become a significant player in the auto sector for sure.  But they weren't around when the consortium was formed and never part of it when they did arrive upon the landscape. But plenty of out tax monies were gladly accepted and Spent. On nada...  Too that point, 5 yrs into his 7 yr run as Gov. work on the Hydrogen fueling infrastructure stopped and we never saw more than a small handful of hydrogen fueling stations built. They went by the wayside as there weren't any cars around for them to fuel up...

But because the eco's won't accept Truth much less facts.  We have groups like The Int'l Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) now attempting to use the COVID-19 pandemic Farce of a global economic shutdown; as a 'rallying cry' for a worldwide infusion of $110 Trillion into electric and hydrogen fueled autos and supporting networks.  They claim that too do this will help generate over 42 million new jobs by 2050 here in the US alone vs. the 26 million jobs 'lost' due too COVID-19.  As if None of those jobs will come back when the President realizes that we (US) have been 'had' by the Leftist One World cabal of the Dims, UN, WHO, CCP & Soros; and he throws open the economy and frees us from this Farce.  

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Interestingly the two highest ranking politicians to support hydrogen were both Republican, Schwarzenegger and Bush Jr.'s "hydrogen economy". Hydrogen was backed by the oil industry because they could act like they were working on a supposedly green solution that was always years off and if it did come to fruition then they would still be the ones making and selling it as most H comes from natural gas. Unfortunately CA is still spending money on H pumps, we now have about 40 on the way to 100.

The train is indeed a debacle. Autonomous electric vehicles are preferable and will be common by the time the train is finished, but I doubt it ever will be. 

 

[Prometheus1354 + 178]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Interestingly the two highest ranking politicians to support hydrogen were both Republican, Schwarzenegger and Bush Jr.'s "hydrogen economy". Hydrogen was backed by the oil industry because they could act like they were working on a supposedly green solution that was always years off and if it did come to fruition then they would still be the ones making and selling it as most H comes from natural gas. Unfortunately CA is still spending money on H pumps, we now have about 40 on the way to 100.

The train is indeed a debacle. Autonomous electric vehicles are preferable and will be common by the time the train is finished, but I doubt it ever will be. 

 

Well let's be honest here. Arnold and Jr were NEVER Conservatives. RINO's certainly.  By that measure we ended up with the Hydrogen spectrum.  If the Oil companies were supporting the Hydrogen effort, so be it. Why wouldn't they look at options for 'their' future business models.  Why is it when the Oil industry supports something the Left is calling for; they scream bloody murder that the Oil industry is trying to 'destroy' them?? Huh???  Sorry, I flunked 'idiocy & hypocrisy' in school.  (Not sorry)   

Now with the advances in EV's and Hybrid Electric/Fuel Cell autos; the time may come (25-50 yrs) where the majority of vehicles on our highways are Not ICE powered as they are now.  Time will tell.  But when we have one party who insists on trying to 'decide' the outcome of where the market is headed based on their 'intended winner'.... Well that is unlawful and unjust.

Certainly I agree with you the TTN debacle is a pathetic waste of our limited tax monies.  Limited because while the state is (was pre-COVID-19) taking in vast amounts of taxes for its coffers. The politicos were spending it faster than it was comin in. Maybe we get lucky and AG Barr sends in the Feds too really look at the books. If this happens, the lid will surely be blown off the Farce that the Left have been getting away with and Then hopefully heads will roll!  

 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:34 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

Hydrogen cars have long been a joke. But now they have to get serious about competition from Tesla. Tesla is annihilating Mercedes and BMW in California and the new Tesla factory in Germany is under construction.

It amazes me the number of Americans who have a downer on Tesla when they are the only US car company smashing the imported opposition. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/25/2020 at 1:31 AM, markslawson said:

After 30 Years Of Trying, Mercedes-Benz Ends Hydrogen Car Development Because It’s Too Costly
 

Saw this item in a newsletter. It about sums up the problems for hydrogen cars. The technology can be made to work but its far too expensive, especially when going up against well-established competition. Car makers need volume but no one is going to buy simply because of zero net emissions.. M-B is now going to put more effort into electric cars. Good luck with that.

 

Electrek, 23 April 2020
Daimler’s Mercedes-Benz is killing its program to develop passenger cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells.

The company has been working on fuel-cell vehicles for more than 30 years — chasing the dream of a zero-emissions car that has a long driving range, three-minute fill-ups, and emits only water vapor. In the end, the company conceded that building hydrogen cars was too costly, about double the expense of an equivalent battery-electric vehicle.

Mercedes-Benz will wind down production of GLC F-Cell, its only current fuel-cell model. The GLC-F-Cell was developed in a 2013 collaboration with Ford and Nissan.

The idea of the collaboration was to kickstart the production of fuel-cell cars and hydrogen infrastructure. Mercedes-Benz was the only carmaker of the three partners to produce a vehicle in the program.

Mercedes-Benz only made a few hundred examples of the GLC F-Cell because manufacturing costs for the model were so high. The car was used for business promotions but was never offered for sale to the public.

Daimler research boss Markus Schäfer in January said:
 
"Fuel cells work great. It’s just a cost issue, and it’s all about scaling. We need volume.
 

30 years ago I could of told Mercedes that based on the energy costs of compressing Hydrogen down to a practical transport fuel. 

[Real Vic + 3]

Too soon to say Fuel cells are dead.

In fact. I think they will beat batteries in many areas. Many reasons:

Hydrogen from solar, etc. , can be used to storage excess electricity. It is far easier to storage electricity as hydrogen than in batteries.

Tanker trucks and boats with hydrogen can send electricity anywhere any time.

If the power grid goes down it is not a problem with hydrogen. A fuel cell compressor at the hyrogen gas station and keep pumping.

Fuel cell vehicles are lighter, this is good in all sorts of ways, including the environment.

These are just of the top of my head.

Even if they come up with a battery that charges in 3 minutes, there are still reasons for a huge role por hydrogen.

I think many people are Terla fans because Musk has tha Messiah-like quality.  Many people love a Messiah to get them out of whatever valley of tears. But messiahs are are fake because they all hook into the area of irrationality humans have in the brain.

For now, I trust Toyota's judgement more. They are the guys who also were thougt of as being out to lunch when they brought out hybrids. They turned out to be the most practical advance since diesel.

Like a Mercedes Benz top guy said when Toyota launched the Mirai: "we have learned (from the Prius) than when Toyota does something we must pay attention".

Remember also Toyota is, by far, the best managed car company in the World. Remember also that forty years after trying to copy Toyota's Management System, aka Lean, nobody has caught up to them. Except for Porsche, and it is because the proud, but smart, German engineers brought Toyota engineers to teach them to make a great car (which Porsches are) right at the first try and making a good profit.

My bets are still on Toyota. That does not mean there is not a role for battery cars.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Real Vic

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

 

4 hours ago, Real Vic said:

Too soon to say Fuel cells are dead.

In fact. I think they will beat batteries in many areas. Many reasons:

Hydrogen from solar, etc. , can be used to storage excess electricity. It is far easier to storage electricity as hydrogen than in batteries.

Tanker trucks and boats with hydrogen can send electricity anywhere any time.

If the power grid goes down it is not a problem with hydrogen. A fuel cell compressor at the hyrogen gas station and keep pumping.

Fuel cell vehicles are lighter, this is good in all sorts of ways, including the environment.

These are just of the top of my head.

Even if they come up with a battery that charges in 3 minutes, there are still reasons for a huge role por hydrogen.

I think many people are Terla fans because Musk has tha Messiah-like quality.  Many people love a Messiah to get them out of whatever valley of tears. But messiahs are are fake because they all hook into the area of irrationality humans have in the brain.

For now, I trust Toyota's judgement more. They are the guys who also were thougt of as being out to lunch when they brought out hybrids. They turned out to be the most practical advance since diesel.

Like a Mercedes Benz top guy said when Toyota launched the Mirai: "we have learned (from the Prius) than when Toyota does something we must pay attention".

Remember also Toyota is, by far, the best managed car company in the World. Remember also that forty years after trying to copy Toyota's Management System, aka Lean, nobody has caught up to them. Except for Porsche, and it is because the proud, but smart, German engineers brought Toyota engineers to teach them to make a great car (which Porsches are) right at the first try and making a good profit.

My bets are still on Toyota. That does not mean there is not a role for battery cars.

 

Power to gas for grid storage is likely. But transport of hydrogen via truck is extremely expensive. The only efficient way to ship H is via pipeline which is comparable to the electric grid in cost and transport profile. 

Toyota Mirai weighs 4,075 pounds, Tesla Model 3 weighs from 3,550 (RWD, Std. Range) to 4,100 (AWD) pounds. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,042]

9 hours ago, Real Vic said:

Hydrogen from solar, etc. , can be used to storage excess electricity. It is far easier to storage electricity as hydrogen than in batteries.

Tanker trucks and boats with hydrogen can send electricity anywhere any time.

If the power grid goes down it is not a problem with hydrogen. A fuel cell compressor at the hyrogen gas station and keep pumping.

Fuel cell vehicles are lighter, this is good in all sorts of ways, including the environment.

I dunno where you got all this from but as the original post notes M-B is walking away from the use of hydrogen cells in cars simply because they are too expensive. Cost won't come down until they are bought in volume and there is no marketing edge, so no real chance of volume sales. Although there is no barrier to using hydrogen as a store of electricity we already have gasoline/petrol as a very handy store of energy, and batteries if you want an expensive, inflexible way to store energy. To switch to hydrogen would be very, very expensive and storing enough of it to make any difference to major power grid is basically impossible. The hydrogen economy is a nice fairy story. You don't want to mistake if for reality.