Chicago Threatens To Condemn - Possibly Demolish - Churches Defying Lockdown

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

The American Constitution is the law. Who is trying to uphold it? Who is trying to ignore it?

If this were reversed and Chicago was upholding the Constitution and Trump were ignoring it, I would berate him for doing so.  The Left continues, day after day, month after month, year after year, to cry that our President is BREAKING EVERY LAW IN THE LAND(!), while they go about doing so.  Holier than thou absolutely fits, once again.

[Marcin2 + 724]

6 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

 

Trump can say whatever he wants - only with you does it automatically become gospel. His power has limits.

Sacrilege !

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, notsonice said:

The cease and desist order states......future violations could result in a church being ‘declared a public health nuisance’ and potentially closed. Nowhere does it state ............Threatens To Condemn - Possibly Demolish. Another fearmongering blog brought to you by the trolls that love to fearmonger.

Did you watch the video interviews of the church leaders?  The "threat to condemn" or "tear down our churches..." comes from a direct quote. We are not saying that is what it is going to lead to; that is what the ministers and pastors said to the news media. It is not us fearmongering.  The discussion, for all reasonable people, is about whether or not churches and their congregations have the right to worship, which is absolutely a protected right under law.  

Let's be even more clear: it is my opinion that the church leaders are not only trying to hold services for their members, but are also signalling their relevance.  So be it!  That is their right under law.  It is not the right of the government or anyone else to take away their rights.  And there is no law that gives them the power to do so.

And, you need some perspective: Chicago "leaders" go on about some small time infraction like this while their city is crawling with gangs, drug dealers openly selling on the streets in certain areas, cops are on the take, a number of the mayors and even governors have been convicted and sentenced to prison, and more shootings and killings than any other city in the world in most years.  Google Lori the Mayor and check out her wonderful leadership.  Google her police chief and enjoy.  The Churches may well be calling attention to their self-perceived relevance, but so are the mayor and the governor.  They are despicable and I wouldn't let them into my back yard with a mask and gloves and a hazmat suit.  They are, IMHO rotten to the core.  They are absolutely playing politics and power games.  Of that there is no doubt whatsoever.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

13 hours ago, waltz said:

Tom, if you look at the infection rates locally you my determine this is not a terrible decision, affront upon one’s rights, probably.  I freely walk around my neighborhood, without a mask, for as much as six miles a day.  I do not live in a high infection rate area, some idiots may even be smart enough to use the term “white privilege”, more that I am single.  
If you want to go all Hobbes/Locke or negative/positive freedom I will be your Huckleberry but I would guess we come down on the same side a majority of the time. 
Early on I sided with better safe than sorry (give science some time).  Full opening, I am not there but I also get to opt out.  BTW, I have gone to work everyday since the first week “our” voluntary isolation began and that is exactly what it has been locally.

waltz

Waltz, I warned about this virus back in January, when it was new, and nobody knew what to expect.

Since then, with much more data, it is completely obvious to me that this Covid-19 virus (which is basically just SARS 2) has been hijacked as a means of total control by governments, with screechingly complicit help from corrupt mainstream media and being abused by UN / WHO to enact Globalist / Socialist goals.

Chicago politicians are acting akin China's jackboot thugs quashing Hong Hong.  President Xi would be proud.  George Orwell is saying "I told you so."

This is NO LONGER about the virus.

The virus is being used to create compliance and control, to compel compliant citizens to unquestioningly believe that the government knows what is best for you, that the UN / WHO need to rule the world for "your safety".

That all rights must be rescinded "for your own good".

Contact tracing is being pushed hard.

All this crap is unacceptable.

I got really annoyed at @Enthalpic last night and told him to piss off, because he continues to actively push the "willing lambs to the slaughter" view that religion must report to secular governments.  That is how communist countries like China work.

I've been to many different different countries, including place like China and Vietnam, where churches need a license to operate, if they are allowed to operate at all.

I've been to the Middle East, where all religions except Islam are effectively verboten by Hitler-esque absolute religious dictators, who freely chop off citizens heads for religious dissent.

Chicago politicians want to emulate that type of total control.

And I loudly call bullshit to this Chicago politician power ploy.

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

4 hours ago, notsonice said:

The cease and desist order states......future violations could result in a church being ‘declared a public health nuisance’ and potentially closed. Nowhere does it state ............Threatens To Condemn - Possibly Demolish. Another fearmongering blog brought to you by the trolls that love to fearmonger.

 

Read the article again please.  The "by whatever means necessary" bit is pretty all-inclusive for radical politicians who have already sent 3 squads of armed police to try to shut down a church service.

Quote

In addition, as the Health Commissioner, I have the power and duty ‘to cause all nuisances affecting the health of the public to be abated with all reasonable promptness,’ and general police powers ‘to correct, by whatever means are necessary, any health hazard that presents an immediate risk to the life or health of one or more citizens of the City of Chicago.’

 

And here is the context for ^ that bit, from the end of the article:

=======================================================

... After all, if the state has a “police power” to “protect public health”, as they argue, there’s always a risk that a weak person could contract a natural pathogen from another human being.

So it’s not surprising to read this in the Dr. Awardy’s letter:

In addition, as the Health Commissioner, I have the power and duty ‘to cause all nuisances affecting the health of the public to be abated with all reasonable promptness,’ and general police powers ‘to correct, by whatever means are necessary, any health hazard that presents an immediate risk to the life or health of one or more citizens of the City of Chicago.’

Of course, the Constitution disagrees with her. The Contract Clause forbids her from infringing on the fulfillment of contracts, which would mean she can’t order businesses closed (if people bothered to respect the clause), and anyone who understands the Bill of Rights knows the terminology “by whatever means are necessary” is not only horrifying, it’s blocked by the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments.

But she doesn’t appear to care. In fact, by issuing her letter, the Doctor implies that she could, if she desired, not only shut down the churches, but tear them down to “protect public health”.

Cristian Ionescu, pastor of Elim Romanian, said he worries that the ‘summary abatement’ threatened in Arwady’s letter could lead to his church being demolished ‘without due process.’

And that is a justified worry. The phrase “by whatever means necessary” makes it clear.

Rights to life, property, and free will are not supposed to be servile to the prejudices of bureaucrats regarding “whatever” is “necessary”.

It appears that many contemporary American politicians and bureaucrats don’t understand that.

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

Did you watch the video interviews of the church leaders?  The "threat to condemn" or "tear down our churches..." comes from a direct quote.  We are not saying that is what it is going to lead to; that is what the ministers and pastors said to the news media.  It is not us fearmongering.  The discussion, for all reasonable people, is about whether or not churches and their congregations have the right to worship, which is absolutely a protected right under law.  

Let's be even more clear: it is my opinion that the church leaders are not only trying to hold services for their members, but are also signalling their relevance.  So be it!  That is their right under law.  It is not the right of the government or anyone else to take away their rights.  And there is no law that gives them the power to do so.

And, you need some perspective: Chicago "leaders" go on about some small time infraction like this while their city is crawling with gangs, drug dealers openly selling on the streets in certain areas, cops are on the take, a number of the mayors and even governors have been convicted and sentenced to prison, and more shootings and killings than any other city in the world in most years.  Google Lori the Mayor and check out her wonderful leadership.  Google her police chief and enjoy.  The Churches may well be calling attention to their self-perceived relevance, but so are the mayor and the governor.  They are despicable and I wouldn't let them into my back yard with a mask and gloves and a hazmat suit.  They are, IMHO rotten to the core.  They are absolutely playing politics and power games.  Of that there is no doubt whatsoever.

 

Very. Well. Said.

Chicago mafia politicians are rotten to the core.

In this case, Chicago far left extremist politicians are hijacking the virus in order to attack religion.

Democrats have launched a full-scale insurgency attack against the people of the United States in an effort to regain power by any means necessary.

Recall that quote from Chicago Health Commissioner:

==================================

" In addition, as the Health Commissioner, I have the power and duty ‘to cause all nuisances affecting the health of the public to be abated with all reasonable promptness,’ and general police powers ‘to correct, by whatever means are necessary, any health hazard that presents an immediate risk to the life or health of one or more citizens of the City of Chicago.’ "

==================================

 

President Xi approves of this jackboot tactic.

^ The Chinese characters are minzhu bailei and they mean: "Scum of the Nation" - also used as "Democrat Scum" but that really only works in relation to the American Democrat party.

 

[SERWIN + 749]

8 hours ago, ronwagn said:

So waltz, you think it is perfectly OK to intimidate churches, temples, mosques, covens etc. even though the intimidation is unconstitutional. That does not sound like a libertarian stance to me. 

But, but, but, the way I understand it, no one is going after the mosques, they are exempt or so it seems. And if that is true then it suggests that they are getting preferential treatment. Oh, we don't want to offend their cult leaders or they will attack us. Send them to Texas, we'll do to them what we did to that scumbag that tried to attack a naval base in Corpus. Dead muslims everywhere if they try it.....

The First Amendment does read: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Unless it is a Christian church, then we forget about all those pesky laws and rules. Maybe Chicago will finally get lucky and elect someone with more intelligence instead of the long line of idiots they have been electing....

We here in Houston have an idiot called Hildago, and she is dumb as a box of rocks. Finally we are doing what we want, screw them and their "orders". They are threatening to send out the fire marshal to break up restaurants and bars that aren't "social distanced" to their liking, but everyone is ignoring those "orders" now. Even the police are starting to realize how little their power actually is and just leaving it alone. Dumb bitch Hidalgo told everyone she wants everyone to wear masks in Harris County, and threatened us with police action, tickets and jail. The police came out right after her "edict" and basically said screw you!! We need Mott back, she is so stupid I believe someone has to water her once a day to keep her alive....  She is not actually a judge, it is in the title though and she believes she has powers now that don't exist, and a REAL judge had to stop her "order" to release a bunch of prisoners from county lockup. I say screw them, if they had been smart enough to follow the rules to begin with then they wouldn't be in a position to catch this virus in jail anyway, so I would say it "sucks to be them" now...

[SERWIN + 749]

3 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

In addition, as the Health Commissioner, I have the power and duty ‘to cause all nuisances affecting the health of the public to be abated with all reasonable promptness,’ and general police powers ‘to correct, by whatever means are necessary, any health hazard that presents an immediate risk to the life or health of one or more citizens of the City of Chicago.’

 

 

But her powers only apply to a building, and if they can't prove the building is fundamentally flawed. The rules she is referring to have to do with the health aspect of the building itself. So if she can't prove the the building itself is unsafe for whatever reason, then she can't do anything about it. The building itself has nothing to do with the virus, it is the people inside the building that potentially cause the spread. The building could be anything, a shed in someone's back yard could be just as safe or unsafe due to the people, but the building has nothing to do with it. So how can she justify threatening this kind of action? She can't. Besides, how many armed people would show up if they even tried to tear a church down for this ridiculous reason? I would bet a lot of parishioners would be there to defend their church from the government's overreach of power.

[SERWIN + 749]

The democrats are going to keep this totalitarian crap up and start a civil war I am afraid. But they keep on trying....

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

2 hours ago, SERWIN said:

The democrats are going to keep this totalitarian crap up and start a civil war I am afraid. But they keep on trying....

It's seems the closer Barr gets to handing out legal indictments aka "There will be no reports just indictments" & Durham adds more investigators... Flynn case is dropped by the DOJ. A war in the press has begun already.

There may well be civil unrest when Barr hands down his indictments. 

As to Chicago it sounds more like a city in a war torn country everyday. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

6 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

It's seems the closer Barr gets to handing out legal indictments aka "There will be no reports just indictments" & Durham adds more investigators... Flynn case is dropped by the DOJ. A war in the press has begun already.

There may well be civil unrest when Barr hands down his indictments. 

As to Chicago it sounds more like a city in a war torn country everyday. 

Look at Seattle!

 

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

For the Civics challenged among us a review is in order

A law is passed in this country by vote of representatives in Congress, and then signed into law by the executive. This happens at the national level and at the state level. This does not happen at the city level. A city has council members and a mayor. They can vote on ordinances only, not laws. 

Chicago knows they can't pretend it's a law when the executive orders people to stay indoors or for a church to close its doors.  The one thing they have, from prior ordinances passed and state law that gives them this authority is building permits. So the idea that they can revoke occupancy permits and declare a church condemned is indeed legally correct, if not justified. It is only a small step from a condemned building to a razed church. 

One would think even Demoncrats aren't stupid enough to attack their constituents like this. But with mail in voting and ballot "harvesting" they know they can never be voted out of office! The cesspool that is Chicago politics isn't going to suddenly get honest. It's been thoroughly corrupt for decades. It didn't start with mayor Daly and it sure hasn't ended yet. Which is why people who acted like Obama was pure as the driven snow after swimming in that sewer are delusional. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

15 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Look at Seattle!

 

 

I live in the Portland metro area, I know it well. The anger that resides in me at times is overwhelming. 

In Portland there are over 20,000 homeless and Portland is nothing more than a big town. 

Things that happen here are beyond belief, our city mayor actually stood behind and supported Antifia riots. Things became so bad the governor actually called in the Fed's behind the mayor's back to finally end the debacle.

Local law enforcement agencies actually refuse to send their police forces to assist Portland's police in any type of police action.

With the advent of covid Oregon has shut down Portland to the point of financial collapse. As I sit here there are 10000 people have been waiting for unemployment for over 3 months.

In less than 90 days I am.quite sure we will see some type of marshal law imposed...Things are so bad residents are not even paying their rent...The state forbids any evictions during covid..

One could go on and on......how this will end will be quite shocking to the local population a lot of tears and anger comes to mind. 

 

...

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Hence "Eyes Wide Open"?  I feel for you.  I have been to Portland, about 25 years ago, and it was absolutely beautiful.  I was working in Seattle, and it was absolutely beautiful.  Vancouver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego.  And the local governments enable the problems rather than admit they are absolutely wrong in their theory.  They pour more money at the problems that they don't have, and ask, no demand, that the rest of us buy in.  As if.

Liberalism does not work; in fact it is an abject failure that ruins lives.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

@Enthalpic was pretending he understood this

Quote

I urge then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving be made for all people, for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.  1 Timothy 2: 1-2 

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hence "Eyes Wide Open"?  I feel for you.  I have been to Portland, about 25 years ago, and it was absolutely beautiful.  I was working in Seattle, and it was absolutely beautiful.  Vancouver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego.  And the local governments enable the problems rather than admit they are absolutely wrong in their theory.  They pour more money at the problems that they don't have, and ask, no demand, that the rest of us buy in.  As if.

Liberalism does not work; in fact it is an abject failure that ruins lives.

You are correct...Eyes Wide Open.

[SERWIN + 749]

2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

You are correct...Eyes Wide Open.

I also remember when the West coast was a beautiful place, to live and to visit. I haven't been in Cali for about 4 years now, but the last time I was there I went to Oakland. Homeless people living under bridges in what looked like garbage dumps. Literally like garbage dumps. I can only imagine what it is like now. I have no desire to go back, ever....

[waltz + 140]

Tom, 

I want to apologize for being confrontational and combative yesterday.  I was notified that I was exposed by the daughter of the woman whom I am working for, the son whom resides elsewhere tested positive and they were in contact over the weekend.  I was not notified, therefore not given the option to make my own decisions.  I was/am pissed, I feel I had the right to know she was going in for a test and would have had the option to calculate my risk/reward equation.  I have stayed out of the Covid19 threads, should not have let my personal circumstances influence my comments, but I did.  I apologize again for my tone.  Will comment further tomorrow after her results are received.
 

This same message applies to anyone else I addressed and can not recall.

waltz

i am going to go for a walk to burn of a bit of lingering ire, caused by no one at this site but will do so wearing a mask the entire time.  Until tomorrow.

[SERWIN + 749]

On 5/26/2020 at 8:08 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

You are being obtuse.  It's not a law, it's an executive order.

And now you are saying that going to church is a sin.

Piss off.  I'm done with you for tonight.  You are too far gone to be reasoned with.

Just another of many CCP shills spewing the stupidity of the communists blindly, I really wonder if they even understand the ignorance they spew from their pie holes.... Or maybe they are simply jealous of what America has and they DON'T...LMAO

And if it is OK to go to Home Depot, Wal-Mart, or adult toy stores and liqueur stores then it is fine to go to church. It is also OK to go somewhere and cast your vote in person.... I figure if you can go and stand in line to check out at any of these other places then you can stand in line waiting for your turn to vote just as safely. .02% is the death rate of this virus? Then it isn't enough of a danger to avoid these rights to vote in a polling station, hell, in most big cities it is more dangerous to drive there than that.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

If you are physically able to get out and vote, but are too lazy to do so....you really should not have the right, and responsibility, to vote.

[In Suspense + 14]

The Texas Supreme Court recently ruled " not having immunity to Covid19 is not a disability" therefore not a reason for mail in voting.

Hopefully other states realize the same.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, SERWIN said:

Just another of many CCP shills spewing the stupidity of the communists blindly, I really wonder if they even understand the ignorance they spew from their pie holes.... Or maybe they are simply jealous of what America has and they DON'T...LMAO

LOL, now I'm a CCP shill?  Good grief.

Jealous, no; I assure you I am plenty happy with my relatively affluent life in Canada. 

Stay classy...

[SERWIN + 749]

1 hour ago, In Suspense said:

The Texas Supreme Court recently ruled " not having immunity to Covid19 is not a disability" therefore not a reason for mail in voting.

Hopefully other states realize the same.

The libtard states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York, hell, any of them run by the Demonrats are going to push for voting by mail. It is the only way they have a chance of even having a decent showing of votes. We already know about them sending people out to vote multiple times, but they don't want to have someone voting show any ID(because it is racist for us to expect them to be able to get any form of state ID card). But, but, but, federal law requires that any company hiring employees has to have a couple forms of that person's ID on file, and no one is whining about THAT. Why is that not just as racist as the idea of having ID to vote. Double standards, like some punk kid that wants everything but doesn't want to earn it. I personally think it is racist to assume that just because someone is black or hispanic that they aren't capable of getting any form of ID. Only white folks are assumed to have the means of getting an ID, hence the whole white privilege thing?

[waltz + 140]

Update, daughter tested negative.   Still pissed time sensitive information was not provided.  Anyone have a decent study that gives values onto the lapse of exposure to virus assuming the correctness of the test and when a test is considered legitimate (positive or negative), not easy to find.

waltz
 

semi celebrating.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

48 minutes ago, waltz said:

Update, daughter tested negative.   Still pissed time sensitive information was not provided.  Anyone have a decent study that gives values onto the lapse of exposure to virus assuming the correctness of the test and when a test is considered legitimate (positive or negative), not easy to find.

waltz
 

semi celebrating.

Good for you, @waltz

@0R0 may be able to help with your questions.