National Guard kills again

[frankfurter + 562]

Innocent Bystander Killed by Police and National Guard in Louisville
David McAtee was a business owner loved by community, friend of local cops
Dave DeCamp Posted on June 1, 2020
A man was shot and killed by police and National Guard troops in Louisville, Kentucky, early Monday morning around 12:15 am.  

Many people here at Oil Price have demonised me incessantly for claiming the Guard is a murderous force. 

So, what say you now? 

Worse is yet to come. Trump intends to deploy the army against his own people, with full force. And invoke various acts, such as insurrection.  All hell is about to break loose.  You think the covid lockdown is bad?  You think the NSA surveillance state is bad?  Truly, America's enemies are within, not without.

Remember the words of ML King:  there is none so blind as he who will not see; none so deaf as he who will not hear. 

Yet you incessantly demonise China, which has not deployed any of its forces against the HK protestors, for a year, even when those protestors committed acts of disruption, destruction, looting, and murder. 

So, what say you now?

 

[Roughneck88 + 53]

National guard isn’t a murderous force. There your run of the mill boys and girls your sons and daughter graduated with. They aren’t fucking machines that were engineered and programmed to kill. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Roughneck88

[Roughneck88 + 53]

Protesters have brought this on themselves when they started beating innocent people in the streets, started looting stores, set communities on fire, and started over running the police forces. Not all riots come to National Guard being involved, its only after local police forces lose control of situation and they have. if your solution is to not get National Guard involved and just let this play out on its own then we see things from completely opposite view points. My wife is a RN and makes her commute to a city that is dealing with these protesters right now and you bet your ass I welcome the National Guard if that what it takes to keep these animals from harassing my wife on the way to work or dropping my child off at day care. I know if my town had these rioters making there way down the street past my house I'd welcome them. National guard isn't the problem, Trump isn't the problem, white people aren't the problem, the problem is people who don't know how to function in society and they will hopefully be dealt with one way or another. Its not that I'm not sympathetic, but my sympathy lies with small buisness owners who have lost everything, my sympathy is for the innocent who have been caught up in the middle of this, and my sympathy is with people who really were trying to have a meaningful protest and had all of it overshadowed by these animals.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Roughneck88

[QuarterCenturyVet + 312]

51 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Many people here at Oil Price have demonised me incessantly for claiming the Guard is a murderous force. 

Hey (School of) Frankfurt-er, can you post a link to back up your claims, or are you just going lie and obfuscate like the CCP? This is what found. No mention of the national guard killing anyone. hmmmmm.... https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/01/us/louisville-protests-man-shot-dead/index.html  

Edited June 2, 2020 by QuarterCenturyVet
Incomplete post

[El Gato + 251]

Really, go back to China where you belong Furter. You have young teens and early twenty somethings who for two weeks a year and one weekend a month practice any type of military training, get shot at and training kicks in. (You conveniently left THAT part our). What do you expect? I'm surprised it hasn't happened more. If ANTIFA and the looters would stay away, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. end of story. They are young kids brought in because things got out of hand. So control your friends better Frankie, and the guard won't be out

[0R0 + 6,251]

@frankfurter lies again.

It is only in his mind that a shooting and presence of the National Guard come together as a causal connection. Besides which, they are controlled by the Governors, not Trump.  Trump's martial bravado is not legally possible, which he well knows. It is intended to pick up the interest of his core voters, who don't happen to be on the streets in the big cities.

For @frankfuhrer Chin'a imposition of its arbitrary courts ruled by the CCP on Hong Kong is equal to dealing with actual violence around what are otherwise mostly peaceful protests. The violence appears to be by provocateurs who are largely white and they are being handed to the police by the protesters. Are they  paid by Chinese agents?

The CCP propaganda narrative is off the mark as usual and has no room for serious consideration, it is laughed at by all who see it. Your bosses in the CCP would do better clamming up and firing you than having you post unfounded trash with no references.

Even if it were true, it does not put China in a better light, it just makes Trump look more like Emperor Xi.

[frankfurter + 562]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/louisville-police-soldiers-return-fire-killing-man-70993296

omg, you people can't find msm news?  The victim was a bystander.  The shooters had their body cams switched off. coincidence? 

I am shocked to read all persons here condone the Guard's action to murder an innocent man.  Nothing has changed since Kent State.

Trump cannot order troops? He is el supremo commander in chief. Whether he does or not, the threat is sufficient to stoke the fire. 

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

8 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Remember the words of ML King:  there is none so blind as he who will not see; none so deaf as he who will not hear. 

Look in the mirror.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

White On Black Crime vs. Black On White Crime: New Statistics Show More Killings Between Races

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/louisville-police-soldiers-return-fire-killing-man-70993296

omg, you people can't find msm news?  The victim was a bystander.  The shooters had their body cams switched off. coincidence? 

I am shocked to read all persons here condone the Guard's action to murder an innocent man.  Nothing has changed since Kent State.

Trump cannot order troops? He is el supremo commander in chief. Whether he does or not, the threat is sufficient to stoke the fire. 

Reading comprehension required. The police shot the man, not the guard. 

Quote

Louisville Mayor Greg Fischer announced the firing of Police Chief Steve Conrad at a news conference Monday. He said officers involved in the shooting failed to activate body cameras at the chaotic scene. Authorities had sought footage for their investigation, after Kentucky’s governor demanded the release of police video.

The police chief was fired, not the commander of the troops. Your ignorance is yet again duly noted. As is your predilection for disinformation.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

9 hours ago, frankfurter said:

So, what say you now?

I say you lie

[frankfurter + 562]

So, the msm reports coming out now assert the Guard AND the Police fired upon the crowd. Nobody knows who did what.  Body cams switched off. How convenient.  Since when has the msm reported factually, since 1950?  So, the police chief was fired, after the murder.  Oh, everything is fine now.  Fine for whom?  

So utterly repugnant to read you people condone murder. The last president to use that word was also murdered.

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

7 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

So, the msm reports coming out now assert the Guard AND the Police fired upon the crowd. Nobody knows who did what.  Body cams switched off. How convenient.  Since when has the msm reported factually, since 1950?  So, the police chief was fired, after the murder.  Oh, everything is fine now.  Fine for whom?  

So utterly repugnant to read you people condone murder. The last president to use that word was also murdered.

 

Does this keep you up at night? Meaning sleepless nights the US will not survive.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Eyes Wide Open

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, ronwagn said:

White On Black Crime vs. Black On White Crime: New Statistics Show More Killings Between Races

Did you forget a link, @ronwagn??

[ronwagn + 6,290]

28 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Did you forget a link, @ronwagn??

https://www.ibtimes.com/white-black-crime-vs-black-white-crime-new-statistics-show-more-killings-between-2424598 Here it is. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

So, the msm reports coming out now assert the Guard AND the Police fired upon the crowd. Nobody knows who did what.  Body cams switched off. How convenient.  Since when has the msm reported factually, since 1950?  So, the police chief was fired, after the murder.  Oh, everything is fine now.  Fine for whom?  

So utterly repugnant to read you people condone murder. The last president to use that word was also murdered.

 

Trivial to determine who fired the shot. National Guard is armed with M16 rifles, which fire 556 or 223 rounds. Police might be armed with 9mm or 40 caliber pistols. They know damn good and well what killed the man. 

[frankfurter + 562]

51 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Trivial to determine who fired the shot. National Guard is armed with M16 rifles, which fire 556 or 223 rounds. Police might be armed with 9mm or 40 caliber pistols. They know damn good and well what killed the man. 

so true. Basic forensics would match the bullet to the firearm, and be done quickly, as in hours. But why let honest forensics ruin a good fascist state action against citizens?  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

16 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Trump cannot order troops? He is el supremo commander in chief.

  He cannot.  

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jan van Eck
typing error

[Richard Hall + 25]

Not even under National Emergency? Could FEMA deploy them if they take over under that EO 12148?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, Richard Hall said:

Not even under National Emergency? Could FEMA deploy them if they take over under that EO 12148?

Hi Richard.  If you want Jan to answer, you have to type @Jan van Eck and select his name from the drop down list.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hi Richard.  If you want Jan to answer, you have to type @Jan van Eck and select his name from the drop down list.

Now that you have graciously alerted me that there is a pending question, I shall try to formulate a cogent response to @Richard Hall.

The question posited is whether or not a President, specifically the admittedly impetuous Donald Trump, can "order troops", of the State Guard, and I take that to mean to order troops into the field to act as suppressors of insurrection. 

The legal picture is muddled.   If you go back far enough, roughly around 1807 there was a "rebellion," or armed uprising, in Western Pennsylvania on a Federal excise tax on whiskey.  In practical effect, the Feds were attempting to tax "moonshine," which for our foreign readers is a liquor distilled from various grains, specifically malt, into whiskey by backwoods stills over which the government has no control. The attempt to tax led to an armed uprising, and to put that down the COngress did pass some legislation that was and is rather ambiguously worded that would allow for Federal troops  (not otherwise expounded on) to go in and put down the armed rebellion. 

Now, the legal foundation for that is unclear.  The original Declaration of Independence, one of the foundational documents of the USA, specifically provides that when a government is "tyrannical" it is the right and solemn duty of the citizens to overthrow it.  Well, if there is an inherent right to overthrow the government, then it becomes a stretch to conclude that the same government about to be overthrown can use citizan troops to put down the overthrow.  You see the logical problems. 

I personally conclude that the President has no such authority.  Perhaps to no surprise, the "legal advisors" inside the Administration conclude that the President does have the authority.  We differ.  

In the USA, there are in effect "two armies."  You have the "Federal Army" that is run out of the Pentagon, and those commanders indeed do take orders from the President.  That said, the President is limited to "lawful orders," and there is where the conundra start.  What is "lawful"?  Was it "lawful" for Pres. Lincoln to Order the Union Army to go into combat against the seceding Southern States  (the US "Civil War")?  Probably not.  But he did it anyway.  Presidents are like that; they take power that they do not have, and expand the envelope.  The larger user of that approach was Lyndon Johnson in the war against Vietnam.  He did whatever he wanted to, and the Army commanders went along with it, although the legal basis for any of it is quite dubious. 

The immediate problem here is that the "other army," which are State Militias chartered by various State legislatures and substantively controlled by commanders reporting to the State Governors, are not directly under the control of the Federal Administration.  In order to take control, a President first has to "federalize" the State Guard  (today called the National Guard, mostly because Washington funds them, even though they are state units). The process of Federalizing is not all that clear but President Eisenhower did that simply by writing up an Executive Order, and that seems to be the way it has gone since.  I remain unconvinced that an Executive Order expends authority of a State militia unit.  Eisenhower did that in response to the integration fracas in Little Rock, Arkansas, where the Governor declared that he would stand in the doors of the high school to prevent any black student from entering.  Responsively, Eisenhower simply Federalized the State Guard, installed Federal Commanders, and Ordered the Guard into the streets to kick that Governor in the ass.  Which they did.  And the high school was "integrated," albeit with only I think five students. 

Lyndon Johnson regularly Federalized the state guard units in order to get more bodies for Vietnam.  Notoriously and notably, one entire State Guard unit, it was either Wisconsin or Minnesota, I forget, then sued the Administration in Washington to overturn his Orders, on the grounds that the Pres did not have the authority to take control of a State Guard unit without the consent of the Governor  - which consent was demonstrably absent.  That unit would rather sue than fight.  😉

  Now Trump wants to "order troops" into the streets of the City to act as a surrogate police force.  There is no provision anywhere in US Law for that, other than the rather ambiguous statutes on "terrorism" and some expansive thinking of the laws on the Whisky rebellion of 1807.  Presidents will do it anyway, and then it is up to the military commanders to say "No."  And that depends on how nuanced those commanders are.  In 1877 the Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act that prohibits the Feds from interfering in state policing actions and confines troops to the barracks.  Will the Commanders keep their troops in barracks, and refuse Trump?   Nobody knows. 

The next hurdle that Trump faces is whether he can Federalize a State Guard unit without the Governor's consent, and then order that Unit into the streets to stop looting and so forth.  Again that is dubious.  If the Governor ignores Trump, will the Guard commanders obey the Governor or the President?  And again, until it happens, nobody knows.  Historically, the Guard in Arkansas disobeyed governor Orville Faubus and obeyed General and President Eisenhower.  But Eisenhower, as the Supreme Commander of the WWII war effort, had enormous credibility, and Orville had zero.  How that plays out today, nobody knows.

I hang my hat on the Posse Comitatus Act.  It is up to the State Governor and his command of the State Police  (and State Guard) to determine how things go inside his State.  The Feds under the USA system of government is a government of "limited powers," although Trump does not seem to grasp that.  With limited powers, and all rights reserved to the States and to the People, I cannot envision a legal construct for Trump to order anybody to do anything - except maybe Ivanka to shut up.  Other than that, all he can do is be a blowhard and shout at reporters, which he seems to do routinely.  

Short answer: he has no such authority. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jan van Eck

[0R0 + 6,251]

@Frankenfhurer as usual misread facts, misallocated blame and invented "facts". He also deliberately misread the legal standing of the President in directing military operations on US soil. In his rush to make the claim that the President shot up peaceful protesters as the Chinese propaganda demands, he had forgone all the relevant facts.

Liar liar pants on fire, Mr @Frankenfuhrer. Your boss Emperor Xi is aflame in lies.

Go back to your ministry of propaganda bosses and dump them out the window before they burn the last bridges for Chinese to escape their country to freedom, before it collapses under the incompetent management of the CCP, its decimation of discovery, and the consequences of its greed and self dealing. It is far too late to fix.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 hours ago, frankfurter said:

so true. Basic forensics would match the bullet to the firearm, and be done quickly, as in hours. But why let honest forensics ruin a good fascist state action against citizens?  

They obviously know, that's why the police chief got fired. I can see where your propaganda training doesn't really allow for independent critical thinking skills. It's a shame you suborn your intellect to such a rickety wagon as your "ministry of truth" gig, right out of 1984

[El Gato + 251]

17 hours ago, frankfurter said:

So, the msm reports coming out now assert the Guard AND the Police fired upon the crowd. Nobody knows who did what.  Body cams switched off. How convenient.  Since when has the msm reported factually, since 1950?  So, the police chief was fired, after the murder.  Oh, everything is fine now.  Fine for whom?  

So utterly repugnant to read you people condone murder. The last president to use that word was also murdered.

 

You can't even get your story straight, It was the guard and the police

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/louisville-protests-man-shot-dead/index.html

So quit blaming all your woes on the guard. You Probably tried to get into the Guard and was rejected.

Edited June 3, 2020 by El Gato

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, El Gato said:

You Probably tried to get into the Guard and was rejected.

From what I can make of it, Frankfurter is sitting in mainland China and on the payroll of the military there, to troll US websites and discussion forums and disrupt democratic exchange.  I would not think he has applied to any State Guard unit, I rather doubt that such unit would accept a Chinese national in that military, as a recruit.  

That said, State Guard units do not make good policemen.  We learned that decades ago, in Ohio, at a college called Kent State.  Having Guradsmen with guns in a situation of civil unrest tends to end very badly.  Not something I would do as a Governor, that's for sure.