Germany requires all gas stations to provide EV charging

[Wombat + 1,028]

21 minutes ago, markslawson said:

I agree with a good part of your post but if we had to/were going to worry about oil imports then converting cars to LNG would be a vastly better bet than messing around with electrics which no one in Australia seems to want anyway. We produce heaps of LNG - we are, for the moment, the world's largest exporter - but not much oil. Anyway, leave it with you. 

We have had LPG cars for a very long time, most don't want those either. I suppose my point is that Australia could, and should, be doing a lot more to get the ball rolling. Not just electric cars, but Hydrogen too. Our govt has it's eyes on the massive shale oil deposits in the Northern Territory and does not seem to realise they are not viable until oil goes above $80/bbl, at which point, electric cars will be the much cheaper solution for motorists. If not fully electric, then certainly PHEV's. Half of our govt are outright climate change sceptics, and cannot see the forest for the trees. They do not understand that we will soon have a massive surplus of cheap electricity at a time when electric vehicles will become cheap. It is only 2-3 years away and the least they should be doing is pumping money into schemes similar to the German one whilst they can borrow near zero interest and we are in recession. They have made a start in relation to storage (Snowy Hydro 2) and transmission (2nd interconnector between Tassie and Victoria), but they still under-estimate the pace of change and cannot grasp the bigger picture.

[Wombat + 1,028]

11 minutes ago, markslawson said:

footeab - sorry but it isn't absurd at all. The security argument has not been used seriously for at least three decades, perhaps four - or at least not used seriously by anyone who knows what's going on, perhaps. Amateurs still sometimes use it. The world is simply too complex a place now. As for electrification of transport where they can do it, such as with trains, it has been done. Cars are a different matter. Germany's drive to green power has proved colossally, horrifically expensive and all that money has bought only limited success in getting rid of the brown coal stations on which the country still relies.  Now they want to load more onto a grid that is already struggling to cope with lunatic green policies.

The only lunatic green policy in Germany that I can see is the closing of the nuclear plants. I don't think they should be building new ones (far too expensive), but crazy to retire perfectly good ones! That, along with collapsing NG production in Northern Europe, is the reason that Germany still relies on Brown Coal. Nordstream will change that dramatically. So will German H2 production. ANY major disruptive technology has massive implementation costs (think autos replacing horse and buggy, introduction of computers/robots causing loss of millions of traditional jobs), but the end result is much more efficient and productive.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

33 minutes ago, markslawson said:

footeab - sorry but it isn't absurd at all. The security argument has not been used seriously for at least three decades, perhaps four - or at least not used seriously by anyone who knows what's going on, perhaps. Amateurs still sometimes use it. The world is simply too complex a place now. As for electrification of transport where they can do it, such as with trains, it has been done. Cars are a different matter. Germany's drive to green power has proved colossally, horrifically expensive and all that money has bought only limited success in getting rid of the brown coal stations on which the country still relies.  Now they want to load more onto a grid that is already struggling to cope with lunatic green policies.

See, you just switched subjects.... National security is not a straight line. 

Now, if you were completely honest instead of just mostly honest, your statement would be more akin to this: Sorry, no, "renewables" are an entirely different subject than electric cars.  Electric cars which require cobalt,nickel, lithium in large amounts that all must be imported... just like O/G.  

See, helping you out.  😁

Here is another line which is 100% valid: No real source of stored electrical energy other than pumped hydro, and garbage and no, Germany is not building pumped hydro.  They are... doing jack all regarding energy storage and instead send their "coal power" to surrounding countries while claiming the "renewable energy".  All the while denigrating their neighbors for not being "green".  😁

See, helping you out. 

😁

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:06 AM, markslawson said:

Jay, gain, sorry but you simply haven't understood what you're dealing with or anything about market forces or the numbers of cars on the road or almost anything else concerning this issue. For example, you imagine that putting in enough charging stations will overcome evident consumer resistance to buying EVs. Nope. Absolutely no evidence that is the case. As I believe that I've stated before, in Norway the government has basically bribed voters with major tax/road toll incentives  equivalent to about half the cost of the car to get substantial EV sales. The result has been the better off families now have two cars - an EV for commuting and a petrol car for any serious trips. Poor people make do with what they can get. Charging stations by themselves won't do much. You have to have the rest of the very-expensive package.

In the meantime the service station owners have to set aside a pump slot that would otherwise be earning good money for a charging slot and, as another poster pointed out, completely remake the station's electric system. You point to companies that will install charging stations for free, and say hopefully that maybe the government will handle the power upgrades. Again, I don't think you really grasped what's going on - the government has created a vast additional market. Those services are not going to stay free for long, and the power upgrades will be a major additional cost which someone has to pay for.

Anyway, that should give you some idea of the vast problems with this initiative. I should leave you to your fantasies I guess, but I can't help myself. Leave it with you. 

No difference between filling your tank with petrol or H2?   https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Fuel-Cells/Hydrogen-Fuel-Economy-Is-Finally-Going-Mainstream.html

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Here is another line which is 100% valid: No real source of stored electrical energy other than pumped hydro, and garbage and no, Germany is not building pumped hydro. 

 

Germany has 40 GWh of pumped hydro. Germany has more than 200,000 GWh of NG storage. Yep, more than 5,000 times as much. This is many months of NG demand.

I think you are talking about storage for renewable energy? If so, then you are correct. Nobody seems to have much long term storage for renewable energy.

In today's world solar and wind is useful because the other generators can be counted on to handle the load when wind and solar are unavailable. Wind and solar reduce the need for fuel, but only when they are available. Short-term storage flattens the daily peaks. To get to 100% renewable, you need to flatten the seasonal peaks, which means long term storage, approximately on the order of the existing NG long term storage.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

About those chargers at gas stations: They seem to be mandating "fast chargers", not DC superchargers. In the US a "fast charger" is a SAE1772 level 2 charger: 240VAC at maybe 50 or 60 amp. It takes quite awhile to charge up, but the charger itself is inexpensive.

Speaking personally, I would be quite happy if I could be confident that every gas station had a 50 amp level 2 charger. I would never plan to use one, but if I screwed up and miscalculated my range, I could pull into a gas station and charge up enough to get to my destination. As it is today, the best I can do if I screw up is to use my emergency level 1 charger, which takes forever.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

8 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

If any law should be passed, it should be a STANDARD set for all power connections.  Ah, but TESLA will not go for that as they demand internet connection to their cars when filling for their high amperage service.  Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit, but what do you expect out of the scum mentality residing in San Francisco?

Imposing regulations on car companies is routine practice (catalytic converters, seat belts, airbags, daytime running lights, ABS, etc.).

Tesla is not immune to regulation and they certainly don't have more political clout than the Detroit scum alliance.

 

 

 

[Bu22ard + 4]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:45 PM, BradleyPNW said:

We have a public gasoline refueling business model because we don't have gasoline pipelines running into our homes. Building out a public EV charging infrastructure will have challenges. But if battery prices fall I'd imagine consumers will buy shorter range EVs and/or PHEVs with powerwalls for rapid home charging.

The main reason I bought a PHEV was for the convenience of refueling at home. If I was on the road with an EV and ran out of charge I'd only be interested in charging long enough to get home. I'm familiar with my driving habits so I doubt I'll get caught in a situation where I will need to use a public charger station. 

UK situation:

 

99% of domestic properties are on single phase power. Time to fully charge a normal petrol car replacement EV from empty is 15hrs. Power walls such as Tesla’s can only charge up to a third of the battery and have a 25 year payback. 

 

Granted you won’t need to charge from empty every night but if you have two electric cars you will have to stagger charge them meaning likely drawing 7Kw to charge most of the time you are home. 

 

If you add in domestic appliance use you could be drawing well over 10Kw I saw up to 13Kw on mine. Some UK domestic main fuses can not take this and might blow. 

 

Two interesting facts told to me by the guy who installed my fast charger. 

 

1. Most UK housing estates electrical infrastructure were designed for an average draw of 2Kw per household. 
2. Often when he went to a business (3 phase power etc) to install destination chargers they would say to him I want ten rapid chargers. He would put his tools on their electrical system and more often than not say you have the spare capacity for two. 
3.  

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

16 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

If any law should be passed, it should be a STANDARD set for all power connections.  Ah, but TESLA will not go for that as they demand internet connection to their cars when filling for their high amperage service.  Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit, but what do you expect out of the scum mentality residing in San Francisco?

I'm a bit confused. I thought "Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit" was what happens when a government forces corporations and individuals to do (or not do) something. But you are calling a private company "authoritarian" and calling on the government to force them to standardize. Please make up your mind. I will agree that Elon Musk is an arrogant control freak.

The Tesla superchargers were designed and installed prior to SAE standardization of fast the DC charging interface. Connection to the Internet allows Tesla to optimize the charging. If government intervention forced the use of an inferior standard, that might be "authoritarian".

I happen to believe that government-mandated standardization is a good idea. The proliferation of power connectors for phones and tablets was extremely frustrating, and the existence of several (3, to be exact) incompatible car charging interfaces is frustrating.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

3 hours ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

I'm a bit confused. I thought "Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit" was what happens when a government forces corporations and individuals to do (or not do) something. But you are calling a private company "authoritarian" and calling on the government to force them to standardize. Please make up your mind. I will agree that Elon Musk is an arrogant control freak.

The Tesla superchargers were designed and installed prior to SAE standardization of fast the DC charging interface. Connection to the Internet allows Tesla to optimize the charging. If government intervention forced the use of an inferior standard, that might be "authoritarian".

I happen to believe that government-mandated standardization is a good idea. The proliferation of power connectors for phones and tablets was extremely frustrating, and the existence of several (3, to be exact) incompatible car charging interfaces is frustrating.

But to be fair the ICE world has two interface equivalents - gas and diesel. Not all stations have diesel.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

4 hours ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

I'm a bit confused. I thought "Complete Authoritarian Bull Shit" was what happens when a government forces corporations and individuals to do (or not do) something. But you are calling a private company "authoritarian" and calling on the government to force them to standardize. Please make up your mind. I will agree that Elon Musk is an arrogant control freak.

Standardization so all can use something is authoritarian in your world eh, but a  company purposefully designing something so it cannot be used by everyone for what they already paid for is not...  Make up your mind.  Last I checked, universality is the opposite of authoritarian.  It is in fact the #2 reason governments exist after #1(safety)--> allowing their citizens convenience of commonality. After all this allows for cheap commerce.  If part of the standardization is an info port everyone can use, ok(still think this is Shit and should be banned) as the only information required is the knowledge in the computer on the vehicle in question. 

If someone want to sign up to a company which will not allow the higher charge currents unless you tie your car into their servers  where THEY decide if they will grant you their benevolence allowing you to charge is disgusting.  But hey, that is what TESLA owners are doing. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

4 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Standardization so all can use something is authoritarian in your world eh, but a  company purposefully designing something so it cannot be used by everyone for what they already paid for is not...  Make up your mind.  Last I checked, universality is the opposite of authoritarian.  It is in fact the #2 reason governments exist after #1(safety)--> allowing their citizens convenience of commonality. After all this allows for cheap commerce.  If part of the standardization is an info port everyone can use, ok(still think this is Shit and should be banned) as the only information required is the knowledge in the computer on the vehicle in question. 

If someone want to sign up to a company which will not allow the higher charge currents unless you tie your car into their servers  where THEY decide if they will grant you their benevolence allowing you to charge is disgusting.  But hey, that is what TESLA owners are doing. 

I'm still confused. Tesla (in their infinite wisdom) think that the computer aboard the car is simply not smart enough to to optimize for very rapid charging. If the car cannot consult with the big brain on the Internet, then it will need to use a more conservative algorithm. How is this bad? Why would you ban it? In what sense did "everyone" pay for something they cannot use? Which "everyone"? A Tesla owner? a BMW owner? The owner of a charging station? each of these people knew or should have known what they were paying for.

I know of no reason that you cannot invest in a car charging company that builds the charger of your dreams. I know of no reason you cannot buy a car that can use those chargers to their maximum capability, if one exists. How does this affect Tesla's decision to build charger they way they want to and to build cars they way they want to?

Standardization is not authoritarian. Government-enforced standardization is authoritarian by definition. I think it's a good idea.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

8 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

I'm still confused. Tesla (in their infinite wisdom) think that the computer aboard the car is simply not smart enough to to optimize for very rapid charging.

🤣😂

What are you?  A dinosaur from the 1940's?  Holy Shit...

Hell, relay computers from the 1950's are more than enough for this VERY simple amperage, voltage, capacity, temperature, cycles slope curve hard wired into memory. 

The "computer" on your microwave is more than powerful enough to operate said charger. If you want to hit the "BIG TIME", then a hand calculator from 1985 can do it. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[notsonice + 1,062]

13 hours ago, Bu22ard said:

UK situation:

 

99% of domestic properties are on single phase power. Time to fully charge a normal petrol car replacement EV from empty is 15hrs. Power walls such as Tesla’s can only charge up to a third of the battery and have a 25 year payback. 

 

Granted you won’t need to charge from empty every night but if you have two electric cars you will have to stagger charge them meaning likely drawing 7Kw to charge most of the time you are home. 

 

If you add in domestic appliance use you could be drawing well over 10Kw I saw up to 13Kw on mine. Some UK domestic main fuses can not take this and might blow. 

 

Two interesting facts told to me by the guy who installed my fast charger. 

 

1. Most UK housing estates electrical infrastructure were designed for an average draw of 2Kw per household. 
2. Often when he went to a business (3 phase power etc) to install destination chargers they would say to him I want ten rapid chargers. He would put his tools on their electrical system and more often than not say you have the spare capacity for two. 
3.  

UK looks like the odd duck as in the US we 2 phase power to every house at a minimum (you could not run a dryer or electric stove on single phase) for the rest of Europe......

 

In northern and central Europe, residential electrical supply is commonly 400 V three-phase electric power, which gives 230 V between any single phase and neutral; house wiring may be a mix of three-phase and single-phase circuits, but three-phase residential use is rare in the UK. High-power appliances such as kitchen stoves, water heaters and maybe household power heavy tools like log splitters may be supplied from the 400 V three-phase power supply.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

🤣😂

What are you?  A dinosaur from the 1940's?  Holy Shit...

Hell, relay computers from the 1950's are more than enough for this VERY simple amperage, voltage, capacity, temperature, cycles slope curve hard wired into memory. 

The "computer" on your microwave is more than powerful enough to operate said charger. If you want to hit the "BIG TIME", then a hand calculator from 1985 can do it. 

I did not say that I thought that more computer was needed. I said Tesla thinks that. I also said that you are free to design and market any car you wish to. I'm a retired computer systems architect and I was writing programs professionally for computers for 15 years before that hand calculator was for sale, so maybe I was a dinosaur, but I continued to evolve. I've also studied the SAE1772 standard (talk about dinosaurs!) enough to modify my home charging station. This is a side issue. You still have not said how a private company implementing a proprietary charging protocol is "authoritarian" and how a government rule enforcing standardization is not "authoritarian".

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

45 minutes ago, notsonice said:

UK looks like the odd duck as in the US we 2 phase power to every house at a minimum (you could not run a dryer or electric stove on single phase) for the rest of Europe......

 

This is common misapprehension. Most US homes have "split-phase", not "2 phase". Nobody uses 2 phase as it has no advantage. "Split-phase" is single phase power, nominally "220 VAC" but actually twice the base nominal "120 VAC". The house gets two hot wires plus ground from the pole, and these two wires are 120 VAC with respect ground, but are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and thus 240 VAC with respect to each other.

Three-phase power has three 120VAC  hot wires at 120-degree phase offsets. Many single-phase high-power motors can operate by using either split-phase (240VAC) or two of the three hots of a 3-phase, which provide 208 VAC. the magic of 3-phase is that a motor that uses all three phases provides true constant torque, because three equal sine waves at 120-degree offsets sum to a constant.

[notsonice + 1,062]

32 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

This is common misapprehension. Most US homes have "split-phase", not "2 phase". Nobody uses 2 phase as it has no advantage. "Split-phase" is single phase power, nominally "220 VAC" but actually twice the base nominal "120 VAC". The house gets two hot wires plus ground from the pole, and these two wires are 120 VAC with respect ground, but are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and thus 240 VAC with respect to each other.

Three-phase power has three 120VAC  hot wires at 120-degree phase offsets. Many single-phase high-power motors can operate by using either split-phase (240VAC) or two of the three hots of a 3-phase, which provide 208 VAC. the magic of 3-phase is that a motor that uses all three phases provides true constant torque, because three equal sine waves at 120-degree offsets sum to a constant.

dude it is common language that it is called  2 phase power today no one calls it split phase. 180  degrees out of phase in comparison to the other phase means 2 different phases for all practical reasons. Have you done any house wiring ? You still have 2 hots off the transformer to the panel (with only 1 hot to the transformer) the same as the old days when they ran 2 hots to the transformer with 2 hots to your panel.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

16 hours ago, Bu22ard said:

UK situation:

 

99% of domestic properties are on single phase power. Time to fully charge a normal petrol car replacement EV from empty is 15hrs. Power walls such as Tesla’s can only charge up to a third of the battery and have a 25 year payback. 

 

Granted you won’t need to charge from empty every night but if you have two electric cars you will have to stagger charge them meaning likely drawing 7Kw to charge most of the time you are home. 

 

If you add in domestic appliance use you could be drawing well over 10Kw I saw up to 13Kw on mine. Some UK domestic main fuses can not take this and might blow. 

 

Two interesting facts told to me by the guy who installed my fast charger. 

 

1. Most UK housing estates electrical infrastructure were designed for an average draw of 2Kw per household. 
2. Often when he went to a business (3 phase power etc) to install destination chargers they would say to him I want ten rapid chargers. He would put his tools on their electrical system and more often than not say you have the spare capacity for two. 
3.  

Some current facts on charging

Seeing all these posts on 10-20 minute charging, I was mentally doing the arithmetic that @footeab@yahoo.com did above. I just don't think that's plausible, not to mention I don't believe Joe Six-pack can be trusted with that much power in his hands. 600 amperes at 240 volts can kill you very quickly, and all your friends if it's wet and they're not socially distanced enough. Meanwhile it doesn't look like any car could even handle that. So, no quick charge

But the Germans are nothing if not innovative. Perhaps those stations should be mandated to provide special massage services to waiting drivers, while their cars are getting juiced, they can be de-juiced, if you get my drift.  😂

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, notsonice said:

dude it is common language that it is called  2 phase power today no one calls it split phase. 180  degrees out of phase in comparison to the other phase means 2 different phases for all practical reasons. Have you done any house wiring ? You still have 2 hots off the transformer to the panel (with only 1 hot to the transformer) the same as the old days when they ran 2 hots to the transformer with 2 hots to your panel.

Dude, you should have quit while you were behind. No one calls it 2 phase, anywhere. If an electrician showed up to work on my "two phase" system, I'd show him the door. Clearly unlicensed. Don't confuse "hots" with phases. Don't go anywhere near a Wye or Delta connection, you'd be dangerous. 

[notsonice + 1,062]

2 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Dude, you should have quit while you were behind. No one calls it 2 phase, anywhere. If an electrician showed up to work on my "two phase" system, I'd show him the door. Clearly unlicensed. Don't confuse "hots" with phases. Don't go anywhere near a Wye or Delta connection, you'd be dangerous. 

2 phase system? is not 2 phases... 2 hots are never the same phase. Unless you think you can hook your 2 hots together??????  . BTW the two Hots are 2 different phases. When the 1 phase is split into 2 , the 2 phases are not the same.

Edited June 16, 2020 by notsonice

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

42 minutes ago, notsonice said:

2 phase system? is not 2 phases... 2 hots are never the same phase. Unless you think you can hook your 2 hots together??????  You made up a new phrase 2 phase system , not me. BTW the two Hots are 2 different phases. When the 1 phase is split into 2 , the 2 phases are not the same.

Please see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

Contrast this with the very early system no longer in use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

[markslawson + 1,042]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:00 AM, Wombat said:

ANY major disruptive technology has massive implementation costs (think autos replacing horse and buggy, introduction of computers/robots causing loss of millions of traditional jobs), but the end result is much more efficient and productive.

The big difference here, and I'm tired to pointing this out, is that the technologies you point to would be largely ignored, if not for government intervention.. they are being foisted on people who do not want them.. its the intervention that's disrupting, not the technology which do not make things better. They are simply less efficient, more costly ways of doing what existing technology alerad did fairly well. Now that's it on that argument..  

[Piotr Berman + 82]

  On 6/10/2020 at 12:12 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

Good for Germany, more power to them, wish them the best!

Is this another ‘unfunded mandate’ from the government forcing businesses to provide a service without subsidizing the mandate?

Like the unfunded mandate that 15 % ethanol/85 % gas mix as used in the US. Ethanol is a pure pork barrel program invented by ADM. We all subsidize the mandate every time we fuel up.

• Ethanol program is a combination of all bad policies in one package.  Given a fixed amount of dollars to save carbon emission, probably a combination of nuclear power ,substituting coal with gas and hybrid vehicles would provide most.  Ethanol most assuredly is not in that mixed, but it maintains the mode of agriculture that leads to soil erosion and unhealthy food mix -- cheap meat  (corn to cattle feed lots, soybean to poultry and pork in megafarms) with expensive fruits vegetables.whole grains etc - several times more than in Poland, and perhaps double of German prices.  Ethanol program subsidizes one Agrobusiness that specializes in producing it plus lets farmers to stick to alternating corn and soybeans with nothing else.
• Concerning Germany, they would save millions tons of carbon each year by not closing nuclear power stations. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

17 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Some current facts on charging

Seeing all these posts on 10-20 minute charging, I was mentally doing the arithmetic that @footeab@yahoo.com did above. I just don't think that's plausible, not to mention I don't believe Joe Six-pack can be trusted with that much power in his hands. 600 amperes at 240 volts can kill you very quickly, and all your friends if it's wet and they're not socially distanced enough. Meanwhile it doesn't look like any car could even handle that. So, no quick charge

But the Germans are nothing if not innovative. Perhaps those stations should be mandated to provide special massage services to waiting drivers, while their cars are getting juiced, they can be de-juiced, if you get my drift.  😂

600A at 240V? Is that a typo?

Isn't that 140,000+ W? Pretty sure 140,000W would melt your car.  Haha

The biggest energy hogs at the lab used 50A at 240V and even those cords were damn thick and were wired directly to a breaker (no plug).

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

22 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

600A at 240V? Is that a typo?

Isn't that 140,000+ W? Pretty sure 140,000W would melt your car.  Haha

The biggest energy hogs at the lab used 50A at 240V and even those cords were damn thick and were wired directly to a breaker (no plug).

Those are DC "super chargers", which really do go up to 250 kW. The two DC conductors in the charging cable are really big, and the DC voltage in that cable is 480 V.  I have no idea what is behind that plug inside the supercharger, but I very much doubt it's a 240 VAC input. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

Very few types of EV have the internal busses required to actually draw 150 kW. New Teslas can do it.

There is no way that Germany can mandate a DC super charger for every petrol station. They have probably mandated a SAE 1772 level 2 charger.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dan Clemmensen
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