Per most popular Indian websites it was Indian troops not Chinese troops breach of LAC that caused the clashes. If you know any Indian media that claim to the contrary please provide the link

[Marcin2 + 724]

39 minutes ago, JoMack said:

I found out trying to buy a product NOT made in China on-line is a b***h.    Even when you dig in to find products relating to such things as underwear for example, and you ask "show products made in U.S.A." you get the product and it says "some material made in China".  Drives me insane!  

Now, I believe on Saturday, China began it's wonderful 10 day Yulin Dog Meat Festival - YAY!!  The Chinese claim it's part of their culture, but it was started in 2009.  So, I guess it's just one of those Chinese internal affair things where, like Hong Kong, the South China Sea, Taiwan, India and the rest of the world they are set on annexing, is to be left alone.  This so called festival is animal cruelty at its apex.  China says it has another virus outbreak in Beijing, which I think is a ruse since they are a bit less than transparent with this virus and everything else, and tell us the current virus probably came from a wet market, yet thousands of dogs and cats are skinned alive and eaten during Yulin Dog Meat Festival.  It's madness, but Xi, in my opinion, is a psychopath.  I believe Trump praises him since God knows what he'd do if he didn't.  A nuke would probably be his preferred method of a response and I'm talking about Xi.

 

 

Try for a moment to be neutral, if it is difficult Please make mind exercise.

You switch territories: Chinese with US. Lets pretend US is in East Asia.

In that case of course everything west of Guam, East of Mallacca strait and North of Perth and South of Okinawa would be primary US zone of influence.

Taiwan: China is huge country, current  No 2 and want to be No 1 globally. It is obvious it would control Formosa island even if it would never be Chinese territory just from strategic point of view cause 1 billion Chinese live in 1000 kilometres radius from Formosa. This is totally OBVIOUS for any strategist.

South China Sea is just Chinese counterpart of Mexico Bay, Long Island or US East Coast. China is too large a  country to not control in 100% this Sea lane. 60% of Chinese trade and 70% of oil imports goes this way.

Please guys do not pretend we are children in kindergarten.

In realpolitik countries like US and China have exclude zones of control at least 1,000 miles from their borders.

In case of US it is 5,000 miles from its borders.

Of course there would be clashes US with China.

Because US totally  controls narrative in US based media and most of people are too stupid to understand geopolitical consequences of power, current interpretation of China-US  conflict that you cited in your comment is the only possible.

But in future bi-polar world it would be new  normal that Western Hemisphere is US domain, whereas East and South East Asia is Chinese domain.

The rest of the world would be  constant zone of competition between countries.

Currently China has to be patient and needs to tolerate probably for the next 7 maybe 10 years US overflights over Taiwan or US ships passing Taiwan Strait.

But they know that in the future it would stop.

Probably After a few years of  constant Chinese military presence in US East Coast in Mexico Bay and off the Coast of California.

These widely publicized in US media movements of Chinese Navy (with impoicit information that they Carey nuclear weapons) would   cause sense of fear in US society and cause stop of US Navy movements in East Asia.

Just realpolitik.

US politicians are aware of this, US society of  course not.

 

 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

On 6/19/2020 at 1:27 AM, Jan van Eck said:

What the Commies are doing is exactly what they are doing in the South China Sea:  expand their territory by taking it from others, one salami slice at a time.  The idea is that nobody is going to go to war with them over some slices of uninhabited territory, be that in the coral reefs of the Spratley Islands or the far Northern mountains of India.  Readers may keep in mind that what China claims as Chinese was the southern border of the independent nation of Tibet, until the Chinese Communists knocked that over back around 1954.  So the posture is, "It's ours!" because it was previously the border with Tibet, and hey, we took that, so now we take this.  Charming logic. 

I'm waiting for the CCP to claim all lands conquered by the Kahn.

CCP logic - Barbarians conquered China = China having claims on all territories the Barbarians conquered.

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

1 hour ago, Marcin2 said:

Probably After a few years of  constant Chinese military presence in US East Coast in Mexico Bay and off the Coast of California.

These widely publicized in US media movements of Chinese Navy (with impoicit information that they Carey nuclear weapons) would   cause sense of fear in US society and cause stop of US Navy movements in East Asia.

Just realpolitik.

US politicians are aware of this, US society of  course not.

 

The Russians sail ships up and down the eastern seaboard/gulf of Mexico all the time, it's been going on for decades. No one in the US is scared, they also won't be when China does the same.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Marcin2 said:

Try for a moment to be neutral, if it is difficult Please make mind exercise.

You switch territories: Chinese with US. Lets pretend US is in East Asia.

In that case of course everything west of Guam, East of Mallacca strait and North of Perth and South of Okinawa would be primary US zone of influence.

Taiwan: China is huge country, current  No 2 and want to be No 1 globally. It is obvious it would control Formosa island even if it would never be Chinese territory just from strategic point of view cause 1 billion Chinese live in 1000 kilometres radius from Formosa. This is totally OBVIOUS for any strategist.

South China Sea is just Chinese counterpart of Mexico Bay, Long Island or US East Coast. China is too large a  country to not control in 100% this Sea lane. 60% of Chinese trade and 70% of oil imports goes this way.

Please guys do not pretend we are children in kindergarten.

In realpolitik countries like US and China have exclude zones of control at least 1,000 miles from their borders.

In case of US it is 5,000 miles from its borders.

Of course there would be clashes US with China.

Because US totally  controls narrative in US based media and most of people are too stupid to understand geopolitical consequences of power, current interpretation of China-US  conflict that you cited in your comment is the only possible.

But in future bi-polar world it would be new  normal that Western Hemisphere is US domain, whereas East and South East Asia is Chinese domain.

The rest of the world would be  constant zone of competition between countries.

Currently China has to be patient and needs to tolerate probably for the next 7 maybe 10 years US overflights over Taiwan or US ships passing Taiwan Strait.

But they know that in the future it would stop.

Probably After a few years of  constant Chinese military presence in US East Coast in Mexico Bay and off the Coast of California.

These widely publicized in US media movements of Chinese Navy (with impoicit information that they Carey nuclear weapons) would   cause sense of fear in US society and cause stop of US Navy movements in East Asia.

Just realpolitik.

US politicians are aware of this, US society of  course not.

 

 

You seem to forget that we have allowed China to control the Panama Canal, which we built at great cost in blood and money. Blood due to malaria deaths of workers. The Panama Canal is open to the whole world as far as I know, and has been except in world wars and a Panamanian Revolt. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

I'm waiting for the CCP to claim all lands conquered by the Kahn.

CCP logic - Barbarians conquered China = China having claims on all territories the Barbarians conquered.

Hmmm.  BLM!  (Barbarians)

Double Hmmm:

Quite an interesting, if not exhausting, read.  Put it on your list or perish (the thought. What did you think I meant?).

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hmmm.  BLM!  (Barbarians)

Double Hmmm:

Quite an interesting, if not exhausting, read.  Put it on your list or perish (the thought. What did you think I meant?).

Believe it or not I'm going to read this! Can't deny my inner geopolitics geek.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Strangelovesurfing

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Believe it or not I'm going to read this! Can't deny my inner geopolitics geek.

That is ironic.  Your mind will travel to a different plain, or so I hope for your enjoyment.  May you live in interesting times!

Edited June 23, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

On 6/20/2020 at 10:30 PM, frankfurter said:

The solution to the border is simple: India accepts the demarcation set by the UK prior to independence, per the terms of independence hand-over. That demarcation is known today as the LAC.  Simple. 

Given the amount of mis-information about that Border and the "line of control," I would recite as follows.

The original Border, between India and Tibet, was marked as "unknown" on the maps of the era, as nobody actually went up into that very rugged terrain, and nobody lived there.  So you had this undemarcated border.  Nobody much cared.

The next step was a drafting of a "Border Map" which showed a line well to the North of current positions.  That one was agreed to by the British and the Chinese. 

Then the Chinese annexed Tibet, by force of arms of course, and the Tibetan monarch or whatever you call that fellow fled, taking up residence in India, and the Chinese decided that they needed to build a military road between two points some hundreds of miles apart, and the best route took it through INdia.  So, they just built it, and annexed the Indian territory.  India did not even find out ab out the road and the annexation until about two years later, which shows you how remote the terrain is.

The Indians responded by putting up various posts, lightly manned, strung out like some row of pearls across the terrain. At some point they got into a shooting match with the Chinese Army and got their asses kicked.  Now the Chinese moved the border line unilaterally even further to the South. 

More border posts were erected and manned.  New maps were drawn up, and it is uncontested that the entirety of the Galwan River lay within India.  The Chinese again started encroaching by moving a post at a time further South, just slicing off little bits of Indian Territory.  India responded by putting up  a post at the headwaters of the Galwan, and the Chinese surrounded it, opened fire on it, the Indians sent a supply column to relieve it, the column was beaten back, and the surrounmded post was massacred, everyone there shot dead, no survivors. So, once again the border was forced further South. 

The string of these border posts, typically over 20 miles apart, is called the "Line of Actual Control," or LAC.  In reality, there is no border, it is fluid, it is wherever there is a man with a gun to enforce it. The Border does not exist because the Chinese idea of a Border is something agreed to, but that becomes the starting point for further negotiations or gunfire to move the Border to some new point.  For example, at one time the Border between Taiwan and the mainland (Red) China was just off the coast of the mainland, and some islands, specifically Quemoy and Matsu, were territory of Taiwan.  Well, the Chinese started shelling those islands in order to push the taiwanese off them, and the shelling went on for a year or so, the Chinese did not give a crap about the Border or world opinion or much of anything else.  That is the nature of the Communists.  When in doubt, take it and kill the locals. 

The Chinese will continue to push that border, line of control or no line of control, until they reach the headwaters of the Indus River, which is the real goal.  That is another hundred miles to the South. 

They will kill anyone who gets in their way. Harbor no illusions about the Chinese Communists. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

15 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

The Chinese will continue to push that border, line of control or no line of control, until they reach the headwaters of the Indus River, which is the real goal.  That is another hundred miles to the South. 

The Indus River?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

11 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

The Indus River?

Sorry, Ganges.  I have to stop writing while I am half asleep.  I need a nap!

[frankfurter + 562]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sorry, Ganges.  I have to stop writing while I am half asleep.  I need a nap!

uh, you need very much more than a map. you could start by learning history. but then, why let facts get in your way, right? 

[frankfurter + 562]

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

You seem to forget that we have allowed China to control the Panama Canal, which we built at great cost in blood and money. Blood due to malaria deaths of workers. The Panama Canal is open to the whole world as far as I know, and has been except in world wars and a Panamanian Revolt. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal

China controls the Panama Canal?  be careful with your 8 meds daily: such heavy dosage has serious effects upon cognitive abilities.

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

11 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

uh, you need very much more than a map. you could start by learning history. but then, why let facts get in your way, right? 

I said Nap, not Map, but you only read what you want to read.  As for the rest of your comment, is is your usual partisan bullshit, to which I refuse to respond, as I am not going to get sucked in to another one of your belittling wars, that you have so famously promoted here.  I appreciate that you are paid by the Cihinese military to be a propagandist.  That is not going to excuse you from attempting to defend the indefensible, the invasion of India and the murder of its citizens.  

At some point your Communist Party is going to collapse, although I concede it just might limp along in the version of Cuba, where people pretend to work and the government pretends to pay them. It is starting to become apparent that the Party is more of a global burden than it could possibly be worth, so the rest of the planet will proceed to withdraw from engagement with China, as long as the Communists run things. Cannot happen too soon, for my taste. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

4 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Mexico Bay

Sounds like a Vegas hotel. Perhaps you meant Gulf of Mexico? 

Meanwhile, you don't see the US planting islands in the Gulf to expand our economic exclusion zone, unlike say, China, which is doing exactly that. 

[Marcin2 + 724]

12 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

The Russians sail ships up and down the eastern seaboard/gulf of Mexico all the time, it's been going on for decades. No one in the US is scared, they also won't be when China does the same.

Yeah, up and down, all the time. Last decade Russians did it already twice: once in 2018 or 2019 and once in 2013.

Russia simply does not have enough navy combatants to make it more often.

I am talking about real activity like constant presence of a few destroyers off the coast from and to Cuban or Venezuelan bases. Like making spotting Chinese Navy from the observation decks, the major tourist attractions of New England and California.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[SUZNV + 1,197]

17 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Try for a moment to be neutral, if it is difficult Please make mind exercise.

You switch territories: Chinese with US. Lets pretend US is in East Asia.

In that case of course everything west of Guam, East of Mallacca strait and North of Perth and South of Okinawa would be primary US zone of influence.

Taiwan: China is huge country, current  No 2 and want to be No 1 globally. It is obvious it would control Formosa island even if it would never be Chinese territory just from strategic point of view cause 1 billion Chinese live in 1000 kilometres radius from Formosa. This is totally OBVIOUS for any strategist.

South China Sea is just Chinese counterpart of Mexico Bay, Long Island or US East Coast. China is too large a  country to not control in 100% this Sea lane. 60% of Chinese trade and 70% of oil imports goes this way.

Please guys do not pretend we are children in kindergarten.

In realpolitik countries like US and China have exclude zones of control at least 1,000 miles from their borders.

In case of US it is 5,000 miles from its borders.

Of course there would be clashes US with China.

Because US totally  controls narrative in US based media and most of people are too stupid to understand geopolitical consequences of power, current interpretation of China-US  conflict that you cited in your comment is the only possible.

But firstly US didn't force any side for their zone controls after winning WW2. It didn't stop any country to join securing the trade routes or claim these are their territories and other need permission to enter. Most countries just didn't bother to spend more on that. Any of US ally has the free will to ask US to leave their countries without the risk of getting a war. EU didn't mind to have US troops station on their land while most of China's neighbor do mind.

If US matched China's geopolitical standard, the world would be much much different and no way China could be where it is now and maybe the Sea and trade routes would be much less important to her although most of trades and oil imports would still go this way. China's surrounded situation is because of the her geo location and most of the countries are surrounded by their neighbors. That is not an excuse for I need the sea more than you.

History has many wars because some country wanted to get the strategic position & resources of their neighbors. And no country attempted to block China's trading roads, even Taiwan or Japan, it is just their paranoia.  It is more about CCP try to show off their leadership to their citizens for power. We can do anything to our neighbors UN wouldn't complain because we have strong power under CCP's leadership. The same way they proved their super power over nature with the Three Gorges Dam. US had many bad decisions against their own interest (the same way the lobbying may not for US interests) while CCP would never so I wouldn't  think a better world with that bi-polar system.We had 2 world wars and 1 cold war for the bi-polar system before. US didn't control the UN, WTO or WHO.

Secondly considering the 2016 elections, US media don't have that much effect on public control. They don't represent the people or government or congress or jury. They represent themselves.

Edited June 24, 2020 by SUZNV

[frankfurter + 562]

17 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Try for a moment to be neutral, if it is difficult Please make mind exercise.

You switch territories: Chinese with US. Lets pretend US is in East Asia.

In that case of course everything west of Guam, East of Mallacca strait and North of Perth and South of Okinawa would be primary US zone of influence.

Taiwan: China is huge country, current  No 2 and want to be No 1 globally. It is obvious it would control Formosa island even if it would never be Chinese territory just from strategic point of view cause 1 billion Chinese live in 1000 kilometres radius from Formosa. This is totally OBVIOUS for any strategist.

South China Sea is just Chinese counterpart of Mexico Bay, Long Island or US East Coast. China is too large a  country to not control in 100% this Sea lane. 60% of Chinese trade and 70% of oil imports goes this way.

Please guys do not pretend we are children in kindergarten.

In realpolitik countries like US and China have exclude zones of control at least 1,000 miles from their borders.

In case of US it is 5,000 miles from its borders.

Of course there would be clashes US with China.

Because US totally  controls narrative in US based media and most of people are too stupid to understand geopolitical consequences of power, current interpretation of China-US  conflict that you cited in your comment is the only possible.

But in future bi-polar world it would be new  normal that Western Hemisphere is US domain, whereas East and South East Asia is Chinese domain.

The rest of the world would be  constant zone of competition between countries.

Currently China has to be patient and needs to tolerate probably for the next 7 maybe 10 years US overflights over Taiwan or US ships passing Taiwan Strait.

But they know that in the future it would stop.

Probably After a few years of  constant Chinese military presence in US East Coast in Mexico Bay and off the Coast of California.

These widely publicized in US media movements of Chinese Navy (with impoicit information that they Carey nuclear weapons) would   cause sense of fear in US society and cause stop of US Navy movements in East Asia.

Just realpolitik.

US politicians are aware of this, US society of  course not.

 

 

pretending?  who is pretending? 

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

43 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

They represent themselves

Actually they represent the DNC 

[Marcin2 + 724]

58 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

pretending?  who is pretending? 

 

Please fight your insecurities. You are quick also to insult people without any reason.

Back to meritum:

I am just referring to the laws of the geopolitics as a science.

I just say that China acts very similar to US.

US made many coups and military aggressions in the world since WW2. Of course they ALWAYS had good reasons.

Like China or Russia.

But at the end of the day it is the power of superior military and economy that counts.

I mean you can hide 750 billion military budget, 12 supercarriers, 80 destroyers and 3000 superior planes and reserve currency plus largest economy behind human rights or whatever argument the same as you can hide ELEPHANT behind the ANT. You just need a little bit of imagination.

@Ward Smith When US was created as a country all Gulf of Mexico islands were somebody's possession for 250 years. I am talking about the situation when 2 countries: 1 weak / medium and 1 very strong (like China, US or Russia) have international territorial dispute. The stronger country ALWAYS wins. Chinese claims whether right or not ( I really do not care, it is far far away) will be "solved" in Chinese favor, sooner or later. The only obstacle is US that is no 1 and China is just no 2.

In case of India and China both disputed territories are more or less worthless in comaprison to all the area of India or China.

Aksai Chin is much worse than Arunachal Pradesh, India would do a good deal by accepting the status quo.

China wants to settle this dispute just to move on. It is the last important land dispute of China (they have very small with Bhutan). India on the other hand has not settled border with ANY of its neighbours.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Marcin2
typos

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

6 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

The stronger country ALWAYS wins.

There wouldn't even be a United States if this were true. England was the superpower of its day when we fought for and achieved Independence. 

As for India and China, they both have excessively large population and need all the room they can get (or so they believe). China has indeed been nibbling away at Indian territory, just as they bit into Mongolia lands and gobbled up Tibet, while drooling over Taiwan. The vast majority of Chinese REE production comes from those Mongolian lands. It's not just "worthless" space. 

[Marcin2 + 724]

 @SUZNV

EU didn't mind to have US troops station on their land while most of China's neighbor do mind.

China's troops are within its borders bar Djibuti were everybody has a base. Presence of US in EU dates back to USSR times, and we still think it is a good and VERY CHEAP way to defend our countries, even if we lose some of the sovereignty. But I think when Germany would inevitably flex it military muscle in the future and go nuclear it would kick US out the country. EU and US interest are just already too divergent, containment of EU is the strategic goal of US, otherwise US cannot go after China.

 China's surrounded situation is because of the her geo location and most of the countries are surrounded by their neighbors. That is not an excuse for I need the sea more than you.

China has every land border regulated bar Indian ( and small , really small patch with Bhutan). China wanted to regulate all border disputes as it was weaking its strategic situation, the way it is a disaster for India for 70 years. It is not just but they are stronger than Vietnam so would keep the islands.

The same way they proved their super power over nature with the Three Gorges Dam. US had many bad decisions against their own interest (the same way the lobbying may not for US interests) while CCP would never so I wouldn't  think a better world with that bi-polar system.We had 2 world wars and 1 cold war for the bi-polar system before.

I do not say it is good or bad, world is bi-polar, the FACT. Chinese economy is nearly 3 times larger than Japanese in nominal and 5 times in PPP GDP. US economy is 4 times larger than Japanese economy.

US didn't control the UN

Actually it did till 1970s and prevented Chinese membership

and WTO

actually it did and prevented access of China as long as US could, until Bush the younger traded the membership for backing War of Terror.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Marcin2 + 724]

32 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

There wouldn't even be a United States if this were true. England was the superpower of its day when we fought for and achieved Independence. 

As for India and China, they both have excessively large population and need all the room they can get (or so they believe). China has indeed been nibbling away at Indian territory, just as they bit into Mongolia lands and gobbled up Tibet, while drooling over Taiwan. The vast majority of Chinese REE production comes from those Mongolian lands. It's not just "worthless" space. 

Logistics is everything, and US is on remote continent and it was 18th century.

US population was 4 million and GB was 10.5 million in 1790 so there was disparity but not that much.

 

I was looking for the description of these Chinese transgressions.

Above all I am part of the cult of true and unbiased information, even if it unconvenient.

Nowhere to find them.

If there were any transgression I think, I am 100% positive India and US would document it on the satellite maps and distribute all over the world.

There is  Indian press consensus, even Modi mentioned this before being attacked by Congress that it India has not lost any land to China at LAC.

The outpost was on Chinese side of LAC.

Please show me any map that shows that before March 2020, or 2010, or 1970 this was territory held by India and later stealth invaded by China.

Of course China cannot comment, cause it is not going to lose any resources on petty fist fights with India, its desperate neighbour in deep recession.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Marcin2
typo and erased insults to other commenters

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

32 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Logistics is everything, and US is on remote continent and it was 18th century.

US population was 4 million and GB was 10.5 million in 1790 so there was disparity but not that much.

 

I was looking for the description of these Chinese transgressions.

Above all I am part of the cult of true and unbiased information, even if it unconvenient.

Nowhere to find them.

If there were any transgression I think, I am 100% positive India and US would document it on the satellite maps and distribute all over the world.

There is  Indian press consensus, even Modi mentioned this before being attacked by Congress that it India has not lost any land to China at LAC.

The outpost was on Chinese side of LAC.

Please show me any map that shows that before March 2020, or 2010, or 1970 this was territory held by India and later stealth invaded by China.

Of course China cannot comment, cause it is not going to lose any resources on petty fist fights with India, its desperate neighbour in deep recession.

You would literally have me believe you've never heard of Tibet? Mongolia? You can't find internet sources because, what, the internet hadn't been invented yet? 

[Marcin2 + 724]

1 minute ago, Ward Smith said:

You would literally have me believe you've never heard of Tibet? Mongolia? You can't find internet sources because, what, the internet hadn't been invented yet? 

I am talking only about LAC and India-China dispute, not everything ab ovo.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

On 6/18/2020 at 6:51 PM, frankfurter said:

 The border dispute has been simmering since India gained independence. Prior, India was a British colony; and post, India agreed to uphold all treaties, agreements, proclamations made by Britain respecting Indian lands and sovereignty, without amendments. This is a crucial point.

Britain set the border twixt India and China,

Stop the blatant lies.  Those treaties, agreements, proclamations were not with China.  China had not CONQUERED Tibet yet. 

Here is reality: IF water flows towards the Indian Ocean: It is not China's.  Period.  Under no circumstances should it be Chinese conquered Tibeten Territory. 

There, solved all the border problems.