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On 10/4/2020 at 5:51 PM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

That does raise an interesting question though: how did people obtain fruits and vegetables prior to rail, refrigeration, and CA's dominance in the market?  They produced elsewhere.

Not really.  They ate less, and with lesser variety.  For example, I speculate that the volume of cucumbers consumed before California became a huge supplier was quite small.  What Cali does (or did) was expand the market, not substitute the market. 

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16 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Not really.  They ate less, and with lesser variety.  For example, I speculate that the volume of cucumbers consumed before California became a huge supplier was quite small.  What Cali does (or did) was expand the market, not substitute the market. 

That makes it even easier: all those fruits and vegetables aren't necessary; we simply stop producing and consuming them.

I'm glad you raised this point, actually, because I've studied diet and nutrition in some depth. There is no dietary requirement for fruits, vegetables, or grains. None. The human body sustains itself entirely from amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals. Every vital nutrient obtainable from plants is more easily obtained from meat, fish, and dairy. In fact, one can maintain perfect health subsisting on nothing but beef. There are entire communities of all ethnicities doing it.

What of all the "phytonutrients" and "antioxidants" we've been told about? Utter BS. The body's oxidative state is measured by the level of glutathione reduction, and these plant chemicals have exactly zero effect on that. Plants can be used as medicine for specific conditions, but they're not a health panacea to be applied indiscriminately. Plants often cause more harm than good.

What about fiber? That, too, is hogwash. Doctors would have us believe our bowels would immediately bind without fiber. The data says the exact opposite. Other claims about fiber's health are also unsupported, if not outright contradicted.

Doctors and nutritionists claim that a purely carnivorous human would keel over within months for lack of nutrients - and if not within months, within years on account of clogged arteries. Turns out that was a lie. People have practiced carnivore for decades with only good outcomes to show for it. Ivor Cummins is a good place to start to understand clogged arteries.

My favorite example is the exhortation to reduce saturated fats to control cholesterol levels. It turns out doctors know almost nothing about cholesterol. A data scientist discovered the following:
1) The association between LDL cholesterol and heart risk disappears if HDL is high and triglycerides are low, suggesting that LDL cholesterol - long vilified by the medical community - has nothing to do with heart disease.
2) He could repeatably produce wild swings in LDL cholesterol by increasing or decreasing his dietary fat intake. This is because cholesterol is an energy carrier. Reduce fat intake, and the body mobilizes cholesterol to burn endogenous fat. Of the approximately 100 people who've repeated his experiment, none found contradictory evidence. If you want your LDL cholesterol test to look good, eat as much fat as you can for three days prior to the test. The doctor won't know the difference.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point: the fields of medicine and nutrition are a pack of monkeys f***ing a football. I go to them because they have a legal monopoly on medical care, but I certainly don't trust their competence.

Oh, and we'd be better off without California's agricultural output. Good riddance.

 

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40 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

In fact, one can maintain perfect health subsisting on nothing but beef.

Well, there is a specific disease called scurvy. From Vitamin C deficiency. There is little or no Vitamin C in beef. Some of the recent converts to a paleo diet are coming down with scurvy. It's actually a fairly bad disorder. 

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52 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

That makes it even easier: all those fruits and vegetables aren't necessary; we simply stop producing and consuming them.

Ben, your post is troubling.  It suggests that humans as mammals are evolved analogous to coyotes instead of gorillas. 

The coyote is a predator that kills and eats meat.  The gorilla, which is structurally very close to the human, eats plants, berries, and fruits.  I find it bizarre that you would suggest that humans discard the gorilla model and go to the coyote predator model.  By that standard, we should be out there scooping up roadkill, and setting the carrion on the barbeque.  Not exactly my idea of a sandwich  (which, by the way, includes bread (a grain product), and lettuce  (a leafy veg), and slices of cheese).  Tastes yummy!  Add some avocado and you have nirvana.  In fact, I think I am going to take a break here and go make myself one!

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1 hour ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

That makes it even easier: all those fruits and vegetables aren't necessary; we simply stop producing and consuming them.

I'm glad you raised this point, actually, because I've studied diet and nutrition in some depth. There is no dietary requirement for fruits, vegetables, or grains. None. The human body sustains itself entirely from amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals. Every vital nutrient obtainable from plants is more easily obtained from meat, fish, and dairy. In fact, one can maintain perfect health subsisting on nothing but beef. There are entire communities of all ethnicities doing it.

What of all the "phytonutrients" and "antioxidants" we've been told about? Utter BS. The body's oxidative state is measured by the level of glutathione reduction, and these plant chemicals have exactly zero effect on that. Plants can be used as medicine for specific conditions, but they're not a health panacea to be applied indiscriminately. Plants often cause more harm than good.

What about fiber? That, too, is hogwash. Doctors would have us believe our bowels would immediately bind without fiber. The data says the exact opposite. Other claims about fiber's health are also unsupported, if not outright contradicted.

Doctors and nutritionists claim that a purely carnivorous human would keel over within months for lack of nutrients - and if not within months, within years on account of clogged arteries. Turns out that was a lie. People have practiced carnivore for decades with only good outcomes to show for it. Ivor Cummins is a good place to start to understand clogged arteries.

My favorite example is the exhortation to reduce saturated fats to control cholesterol levels. It turns out doctors know almost nothing about cholesterol. A data scientist discovered the following:
1) The association between LDL cholesterol and heart risk disappears if HDL is high and triglycerides are low, suggesting that LDL cholesterol - long vilified by the medical community - has nothing to do with heart disease.
2) He could repeatably produce wild swings in LDL cholesterol by increasing or decreasing his dietary fat intake. This is because cholesterol is an energy carrier. Reduce fat intake, and the body mobilizes cholesterol to burn endogenous fat. Of the approximately 100 people who've repeated his experiment, none found contradictory evidence. If you want your LDL cholesterol test to look good, eat as much fat as you can for three days prior to the test. The doctor won't know the difference.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point: the fields of medicine and nutrition are a pack of monkeys f***ing a football. I go to them because they have a legal monopoly on medical care, but I certainly don't trust their competence.

Oh, and we'd be better off without California's agricultural output. Good riddance.

 

Actually, you're all wrong. In point of fact, humans do not subsist on the food we eat. Rather, and you might want to close your eyes if you're squeamish, we only survive on bug poop! Well, technically microbe poop but you get my point. 

Our digestive system only functions due to the symbiotic relationship to the flora and fauna in our gut. Take that away (as happens for instance when we're given extreme doses of antibiotics) and we're a bloody mess. 

Dr. @Gerry Maddoux is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong

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^

The particular admixture of bacteria in the gut make up what is known as the microbiome, which varies from person to person. And yes, that massive and diverse population is responsible for breaking down certain foods to release vitamins and nutrients. Depending on one's food preferences, the microbiome will vary greatly. A broad-spectrum antibiotic will wipe out a lot of that population. It can be restored slowly by kefer or yogurt, or quickly by--no kidding--a fecal transplant, which is actually performed on severely ill people who have been on antibiotics for a protracted period of time and are dying of pseudomembranous colitis. You take some natural product from a healthy person and . . . well, you're an imaginative bunch, I suspect you can figure out the rest. 

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1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Well, there is a specific disease called scurvy. From Vitamin C deficiency. There is little or no Vitamin C in beef. Some of the recent converts to a paleo diet are coming down with scurvy. It's actually a fairly bad disorder. 

Glad you mentioned that. This was investigated when it was discovered that entire cultures have thrived on carnivorous diets - no vitamin C supplements required.  This contradicted the nutrition facts, which stated that there was no Vitamin C in meat.

Here's what they discovered:
1) There is, in fact, vitamin C in meat. The nutrition facts say there isn't because the scientists involved were too lazy to measure it.
2) A carnivorous diet reduces Vitamin C requirements. Turns out carbohydrates consume antioxidants.
3) People who experience scurvy on a carnivorous diet are overcooking their food. Heat destroys vitamin C. Have your steak medium rare, and you won't have a problem. 

Further reading:
https://www.amazon.com/Fat-Land-Vilhjalmur-Stefansson/dp/8829534234/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+fat+of+the+land&qid=1602699342&sr=8-1

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31 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

^

The particular admixture of bacteria in the gut make up what is known as the microbiome, which varies from person to person. And yes, that massive and diverse population is responsible for breaking down certain foods to release vitamins and nutrients. Depending on one's food preferences, the microbiome will vary greatly. A broad-spectrum antibiotic will wipe out a lot of that population. It can be restored slowly by kefer or yogurt, or quickly by--no kidding--a fecal transplant, which is actually performed on severely ill people who have been on antibiotics for a protracted period of time and are dying of pseudomembranous colitis. You take some natural product from a healthy person and . . . well, you're an imaginative bunch, I suspect you can figure out the rest. 

You can't use phases like that anymore - people are stupid.

Hint: you don't take it like kefer or yogurt. :)

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56 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Actually, you're all wrong. In point of fact, humans do not subsist on the food we eat. Rather, and you might want to close your eyes if you're squeamish, we only survive on bug poop! Well, technically microbe poop but you get my point. 

Our digestive system only functions due to the symbiotic relationship to the flora and fauna in our gut. Take that away (as happens for instance when we're given extreme doses of antibiotics) and we're a bloody mess. 

Dr. @Gerry Maddoux is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong

No, the small intestine has relatively little bacteria in it and that is where the majority of food absorption occurs. You would have terrible gas and diarrhea if the bacteria were allowed to eat all of the food calories (think lactose intolerance dialed up by a few orders of magnitude). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099351/

The colon bacteria take care of things were can't normally digest ourselves (fiber) and turn in into nice things like short chain fatty acid and vitamin K we can use.

 

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41 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

^

The particular admixture of bacteria in the gut make up what is known as the microbiome, which varies from person to person. And yes, that massive and diverse population is responsible for breaking down certain foods to release vitamins and nutrients. Depending on one's food preferences, the microbiome will vary greatly. A broad-spectrum antibiotic will wipe out a lot of that population. It can be restored slowly by kefer or yogurt, or quickly by--no kidding--a fecal transplant, which is actually performed on severely ill people who have been on antibiotics for a protracted period of time and are dying of pseudomembranous colitis. You take some natural product from a healthy person and . . . well, you're an imaginative bunch, I suspect you can figure out the rest. 

You failed to tell him he is wrong.  Majority of absorption occurs in small intestine (see my post).

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(edited)

14 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Glad you mentioned that. This was investigated when it was discovered that entire cultures have thrived on carnivorous diets - no vitamin C supplements required. 

Carnivorous cultures tended to supplement with vitamin C (Pemmican, rose hips, dandelion).

Max calories from protein is around 40% so the rest has to be fat or carbs. That is why you can still die eating unlimited rabbit, it is too lean.

 

Edited by Enthalpic

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Actually, you're all wrong. In point of fact, humans do not subsist on the food we eat. Rather, and you might want to close your eyes if you're squeamish, we only survive on bug poop! Well, technically microbe poop but you get my point. 

Our digestive system only functions due to the symbiotic relationship to the flora and fauna in our gut. Take that away (as happens for instance when we're given extreme doses of antibiotics) and we're a bloody mess. 

Dr. @Gerry Maddoux is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong

 

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

Ben, your post is troubling.  It suggests that humans as mammals are evolved analogous to coyotes instead of gorillas. 

The coyote is a predator that kills and eats meat.  The gorilla, which is structurally very close to the human, eats plants, berries, and fruits.  I find it bizarre that you would suggest that humans discard the gorilla model and go to the coyote predator model.  By that standard, we should be out there scooping up roadkill, and setting the carrion on the barbeque.  Not exactly my idea of a sandwich  (which, by the way, includes bread (a grain product), and lettuce  (a leafy veg), and slices of cheese).  Tastes yummy!  Add some avocado and you have nirvana.  In fact, I think I am going to take a break here and go make myself one!

In fact, humans did discard the ape model to pursue the coyote model.

Your statements about digestion are true of apes and ruminants, who ingest fiber, process it through a large intestinal tract full of bacteria, and obtain energy from the butyrates those bacteria produce. You can see this on apes, who have enormous, bulging bellies. These statements are not true of humans, whose digestive tract can only obtain about 5% of daily caloric requirements from fiber - and then only under perfect conditions. You can clearly see this on healthy humans, who have slim waists.

Where, then, do humans get their calories?  From fat and protein. If you open up animals and compare the design of their digestive tracts, you'll find that obligate carnivores have one kind of digestive tract and herbivores another. The human digestive tract is as close to "obligate carnivore" as possible, the only difference being a vestigial cecum - the part of the large intestine responsible for fermenting fibers. This is evidence that we started as herbivores and evolved into nearly obligate carnivores.

If you look at human physiology as a whole, it's clear we're predators. Upright posture, forward-looking eyes, shoulders built for throwing, high resolution vision within a narrow cone, a ligament to stabilize our head while running (absent in other apes), oversized small intestine paired with undersized large intestine, unparalleled endurance (read about "persistence hunting"), the ability to coordinate pack behavior - it all points to "carnivore".

A little investigation might have saved you two from regurgitating common, incorrect knowledge.

Edited by BenFranklin'sSpectacles
Removed "color vision". Realized it wasn't relevant.
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5 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Carnivorous cultures tended to supplement with vitamin C (Pemmican, rose hips, dandelion).

Max calories from protein is around 40% so the rest has to be fat or carbs. That is why you can still die eating unlimited rabbit, it is too lean.

And where, pray tell, do you propose the Inuit obtain plant-based vitamin C?  Also, you realize pemmican is raw, dehydrated meat mixed with tallow, right? I.e. it's not a plant product.

It's true that even carnivorous cultures will eat some plants. My point is that plants are not a significant fraction of their diet. More of a supplement. On that note, even cats eat grass; that doesn't mean they're subsisting on it.

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9 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

And where, pray tell, do you propose the Inuit obtain plant-based vitamin C?  Also, you realize pemmican is raw, dehydrated meat mixed with tallow, right? I.e. it's not a plant product.

It's true that even carnivorous cultures will eat some plants. My point is that plants are not a significant fraction of their diet. More of a supplement. On that note, even cats eat grass; that doesn't mean they're subsisting on it.

They still have brief summers, stuff on tv is their winter hunting trips - they don't live like that.  Pemmican has dried berries in it.

I agree it is possible to live off animal products, just as it is possible to be vegan.  Humans are incredibly adaptable omnivores. 

 

 

Edited by Enthalpic

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1 hour ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

^

The particular admixture of bacteria in the gut make up what is known as the microbiome, which varies from person to person. And yes, that massive and diverse population is responsible for breaking down certain foods to release vitamins and nutrients. Depending on one's food preferences, the microbiome will vary greatly. A broad-spectrum antibiotic will wipe out a lot of that population. It can be restored slowly by kefer or yogurt, or quickly by--no kidding--a fecal transplant, which is actually performed on severely ill people who have been on antibiotics for a protracted period of time and are dying of pseudomembranous colitis. You take some natural product from a healthy person and . . . well, you're an imaginative bunch, I suspect you can figure out the rest. 

I see @Enthalpic is back, down voting me and posting lots of meaningless (I presume) "opinions" no one cares about. 

But in the spirit of Christian charity, and given that he's clearly got some kind of problem, I'd like to publicly state, and for the record, that Enthalpic is welcome to eat my shit anytime, anywhere. It undoubtedly will make him a better person

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(edited)

Ward likes to live in ignorance.

Geriatric-child with his eyes and ears closed. 

Weak minds upvote his childish behaviour without commenting on real information.

Edited by Enthalpic

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1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

I see @Enthalpic is back, down voting me and posting lots of meaningless (I presume) "opinions" no one cares about. 

But in the spirit of Christian charity, and given that he's clearly got some kind of problem, I'd like to publicly state, and for the record, that Enthalpic is welcome to eat my shit anytime, anywhere. It undoubtedly will make him a better person

it is odd, its almost like your a trigger of sort...Post and poof

624d400d5b3c202024f6790b64ed3a51e7808a33

Edited by Eyes Wide Open
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22 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

it is odd, its almost like your a trigger of sort...Post and poof

624d400d5b3c202024f6790b64ed3a51e7808a33

That gif really amuses you.  Simple things for simple minds.

 

I comment on wards posts because he spreads misinformation. I won't stop correcting him just because he pretends not to read my posts.

 

If anyone is obsessed it is him and Jan about me. I hear they are writing a book.

 

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Democrat governor shutdowns are destroying people's livelihood. Many of these businesses will never come back and have done permanent damage to our economy and country. The Democrats want to shutdown or burn down all businesses so they can win an election.

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(edited)

On 10/14/2020 at 11:10 AM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

The human body sustains itself entirely from amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals

 

On 10/14/2020 at 11:10 AM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

The body's oxidative state is measured by the level of glutathione reduction, and these plant chemicals have exactly zero effect on that.

That was a good writeup.  I still choose to also eat plants, but what you wrote holds aspects of validity.  Thanks.

Edited by Tom Nolan
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2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

Democrat governor shutdowns are destroying people's livelihood. Many of these businesses will never come back and have done permanent damage to our economy and country. The Democrats want to shutdown or burn down all businesses so they can win an election.

This boggles the mind.  And yet, there is no other justification or explanation.  Lives ruined & lives sacrificed at the altar of political office.

As far as the MSM, it is easy to understand how they have become complicit.  With the advent of social media, email, live feeds, etc., all of which is possible from mobile telephones, it is no longer necessary for a news outlet to send their own people to find and investigate issues.  Just get the story from the wire service or one of the majors, who themselves may only opine about issues and not investigate, and run with it on your own news outlet.  Power mongers saw this as an opportunity, realizing all they had to do was purchase and consolidate news companies to control the narrative.  Job done.  But how to get all the employees of the news company to fall in line?  Well, since the job of news reader is largely the only one still available, they are easily replaced.  Therefore they are under no illusion that they either report/read the news as given to them on a screen or be fired and replaced.

The last point I will make is that it absolutely amazing to me, that the Left commit every infraction known to man, and then without fail turn each and every one of them around and accuse the opposition of committing those crimes themselves.  Without fail.

100's of millions of people have been adversely affected by this farce of a pandemic.  People by the scores have lost their lives needlessly complying with the lockdown orders, and yet no-one will ever serve a day in jail for any of it.  Does anyone believe otherwise?

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13 hours ago, Tom Nolan said:

That was a good writeup.  I still choose to also eat plants, but what you wrote holds aspects of validity.  Thanks.

To be fair, I also eat some plants. Chocolate, blueberries, coffee, and other plants are all delicious. I just don't fool myself into thinking this is necessary or even a significant fraction of my nutrition.

As some well-respected carnivore said, "Even cats eat grass."

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On 10/4/2020 at 7:48 PM, Jan van Eck said:

As long as you recognize that Bezos, the big beneficiary of your shopping approach, is single-handedly destroying America. 

Not just America

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On 10/14/2020 at 7:27 PM, Enthalpic said:

No, the small intestine has relatively little bacteria in it and that is where the majority of food absorption occurs. You would have terrible gas and diarrhea if the bacteria were allowed to eat all of the food calories (think lactose intolerance dialed up by a few orders of magnitude). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099351/

The colon bacteria take care of things were can't normally digest ourselves (fiber) and turn in into nice things like short chain fatty acid and vitamin K we can use.

 

When I was at Uni I worked as a Nursing Auxillary at weekends, mainly on a Psychogeriatric ward. There was one guy who had had his small intestine removed. When he went for a sh1t you literally needed to wear a gas mask to go anywhere near him🤢

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