Trucking Demand; Refrigerated Vaccine Distribution

[Machine 0]

I’m envisioning refrigerated trucks running all across the earth distributing the vaccine in advance of the overall pickup of the economy. Would there be a meaningful fuel demand or just a blip on the radar?

[markslawson + 1,042]

8 hours ago, Machine said:

I’m envisioning refrigerated trucks running all across the earth distributing the vaccine in advance of the overall pickup of the economy. Would there be a meaningful fuel demand or just a blip on the radar?

Very much doubt that there would be any noticeable difference at all. I recall seeing one presentation some time back which stated that the truck sector (not light trucks) accounted for about half of US oil demand, and the US is a good chunk of world demand. Trucks delivering vaccine, even world-wide, is not going to mean much.. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Small light vials that only need to be kept cool.

A bag of frozen french fries that sells for $2 is a bigger shipping logistics challenge...

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

The vaccine must be kept a whole lot colder than frozen food: More like liquid nitrogen, but an individual truckload would be on the order of a million doses, so the problem is not long-haul trucking. Instead, it's the distribution of the vaccine to hospitals. Also most hospitals will not have the cryogenic storage facilities needed, so these will need to be shipped and installed. This will take a lot more fuel, etc. than the vaccine itself I think the smallest cryostorage unit will be bigger than a typical refrigerator or chest-style freezer.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

25 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

The vaccine must be kept a whole lot colder than frozen food: More like liquid nitrogen, but an individual truckload would be on the order of a million doses, so the problem is not long-haul trucking. Instead, it's the distribution of the vaccine to hospitals. Also most hospitals will not have the cryogenic storage facilities needed, so these will need to be shipped and installed. This will take a lot more fuel, etc. than the vaccine itself I think the smallest cryostorage unit will be bigger than a typical refrigerator or chest-style freezer.

Highly doubtful that it is that heat sensitive.  You may need cryo for long-term lab storage but short-term distribution conditions have to be warmer. If the vaccine is too heat susceptible it won't survive being warmed to room temperature for usage, let alone the heat of the body after injection.

These storage condition "requirements" make more legal and financial sense than they do chemical or medical.  If it doesn't work well you have deniability because the users didn't follow impossible storage instructions.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

26 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Highly doubtful that it is that heat sensitive.  You may need cryo for long-term lab storage but short-term distribution conditions have to be warmer. If the vaccine is too heat susceptible it won't survive being warmed to room temperature for usage, let alone the heat of the body after injection.

These storage condition "requirements" make more legal and financial sense than they do chemical or medical.  If it doesn't work well you have deniability because the users didn't follow impossible storage instructions.

 

There are two main vaccine contenders now. One of them needs cryogenic storage:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/11/rural-hospitals-cant-afford-freezers-to-store-pfizer-covid19-vaccine/

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/vaccine-storage-issues-leave-3b-people-access-73815623

 

[markslawson + 1,042]

1 hour ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

There are two main vaccine contenders now. One of them needs cryogenic storage:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/11/rural-hospitals-cant-afford-freezers-to-store-pfizer-covid19-vaccine/

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/vaccine-storage-issues-leave-3b-people-access-73815623

 

An interesting story but of course its a financial and logistics issue.. the additional energy load even from these cryogenic freezers wouldn't make a scrap of difference to overall demand, not even in lightly settled areas.. third world countries maybe, but not the US.. same for the fuel requirement the original poster was asking about.. interesting story though..  

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

15 minutes ago, markslawson said:

An interesting story but of course its a financial and logistics issue.. the additional energy load even from these cryogenic freezers wouldn't make a scrap of difference to overall demand, not even in lightly settled areas.. third world countries maybe, but not the US.. same for the fuel requirement the original poster was asking about.. interesting story though..  

Agreed. By far the largest energy component will be in the manufacture, shipping, and installation of all those extra cryostorage units, and Even that is not a huge amount of energy.

[El Gato + 251]

Liquid Nitrogen tanks  to store vaccines can be as small as a 3 gal cooler, and require no power sources, just periodic re-adding of liquid nitrogen, and the size of containers go up from there. They have been used for years in the artificial insemination industry.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

4 hours ago, El Gato said:

Liquid Nitrogen tanks  to store vaccines can be as small as a 3 gal cooler, and require no power sources, just periodic re-adding of liquid nitrogen, and the size of containers go up from there. They have been used for years in the artificial insemination industry.

Agreed. No matter how we look at it, the vaccination effort will be a trivial increment in global energy demand. Producing liquid nitrogen takes a fair amount of energy but will probably be used for vaccine transport. I think electric cryostorage will be used in hospitals, however.  It will be interesting to see if all of this can be organized quickly, or if a competing room-temperature vaccine will be developed and deployed first.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,132]

On 11/12/2020 at 7:24 PM, Dan Clemmensen said:

The vaccine must be kept a whole lot colder than frozen food: More like liquid nitrogen, \....../ itself I think the smallest cryostorage unit will be bigger than a typical refrigerator or chest-style freezer.

Cryo is absurdly easy.  Any container, dump liquid N2 in it, dump product in it.  Use said product, add LN2 as needed.  Sure, insulation helps, but so?  Nothing needed more than closed cell foam which is literally everywhere.  Making LN2 is not difficult at all.  In fact, every minor hospital already has LN2 production facilities in developed world as the most important devices/medicines of modern medicine require LN2 to function(imaging devices).  In fact many businesses have LN2 production facilities.  Of course this is the developed world... so... yea. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

6 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Cryo is absurdly easy.  Any container, dump liquid N2 in it, dump product in it.  Use said product, add LN2 as needed.  Sure, insulation helps, but so?  Nothing needed more than closed cell foam which is literally everywhere.  Making LN2 is not difficult at all.  In fact, every minor hospital already has LN2 production facilities in developed world as the most important devices/medicines of modern medicine require LN2 to function(imaging devices).  In fact many businesses have LN2 production facilities.  Of course this is the developed world... so... yea. 

I only "know" what I read on the subject:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/11/rural-hospitals-cant-afford-freezers-to-store-pfizer-covid19-vaccine/

We are getting a little off-topic. the original question was (broadly) "how much energy will be needed to distribute a Covid-19 vaccine?" I think the answer is "incrementally very little", and this will be true even if hospitals use liquefied nitrogen and the energy used to liquefy nitrogen is included. However, I do not know much at all about the total amount of LN2 needed relative to the nation's capacity to produce it.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Dan Clemmensen
sp

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

1 hour ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

We are getting a little off-topic. the original question was (broadly) "how much energy will be needed to distribute a Covid-19 vaccine?" I think the answer is "incrementally very little", and this will be true even if hospitals use liquefied nitrogen and the energy used to liquefy nitrogen is included. However, I do not know much at all about the total amount of LN2 needed relative to the nation's capacity to produce it.

Globally, this is a big deal . . . if a mRNA vaccine is the only one that is protective. A "Cold Chain" has to be set up to deliver about 15 billion doses of vaccine around the world. The temperature required for preservation of the integrity of the vaccine is fairly distinct: Only minus 4 for the Moderna vaccine, but all the way down to -94F for the Pfizer vaccine. 

A cold chain means refrigerated trucks, planes, warehouses, distribution centers. The cold chain, in point of fact, will overwhelm many places in the world. Normally, this would be where a World Health Organization, but if no palms are greased and no political gain is to be had, don't expect them to do much. More likely it will be coordinated by the US, in conjunction with city/state governments around the world. It will theoretically be a great way to generate good will between countries.

With a hundred vaccines on the horizon, surely one or more of them will be of the more conventional type that doesn't involve mRNA. I'm personally a little goosey about mRNA vaccines--the potential for smoldering inflammation and/or autoimmune issues. The main concern is not that these show up right away but in a year. I don't even know is this is a warranted concern, to be frank, but there's no doubt that when the mRNA vaccines are trotted out, we're going to be running a giant experiment for the first time in history.

And at record low temperatures, too. 

[BLA + 1,666]

5 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

 

With a hundred vaccines on the horizon, surely one or more of them will be of the more conventional type that doesn't involve mRNA. I'm personally a little goosey about mRNA vaccines--the potential for smoldering inflammation and/or autoimmune issues. The main concern is not that these show up right away but in a year. I don't even know is this is a warranted concern, to be frank, but there's no doubt that when the mRNA vaccines are trotted out, we're going to be running a giant experiment for the first time in history.

And at record low temperatures, too. 

GM thanks for the heads up on possible risks of mRNA vaccine. I had not heard this.  

I think I'll stick to vitamin D and Zinc for now.

Found this article : Five Risks of mRNA vaccines

https://www.newswars.com/mrna-vaccines-might-prove-catastrophic-in-a-rushed-coronavirus-response/  

 

"1) Sudden onset of autoimmune disorders that cause the body’s immune system to attack its own cells. (See more details below.)

2) Heightened inflammation in the body, resulting in a hyper-inflammatory response in some people, leading to secondary effects such as neurological damage, organ failure or cancer. This is also sometimes called an “enhanced” inflammatory response.

3) A heightened risk of blood clotting in response to mRNA strands circulating in the blood outside the body’s cells. This can lead to potentially fatal episodes of stroke or serious cardiovascular events.

4) Immune response interference due to the presence of unintended RNA fragments being translated into unintended proteins, leading to a vast array of negative possible outcomes including molecular deficiencies that can result in various diseases and syndromes including hormonal / endocrine disorders, infertility, cardiovascular disease, neurological disorders and many more.

5) In the case of self-replicating mRNA vaccines using viral components, an inability to stop a runaway process that’s replicating out of control in the body. This could theoretically occur when the mRNA snippets are pushed into cells via virus replicon particles (VRP), for example, or using other viral delivery methods that rely on viral replication machinery. On the other hand, self-replicating mRNA vaccines allow for injection doses to be incredibly small, since the mRNA coding material is self-replicating, and this could lead to safer vaccines with far smaller dosing requirements compared to traditional vaccines."

"Importantly, many of the theoretical side effects of an mRNA vaccine would not become apparent until months or years after the initial injection. These adverse events are likely to be systemic, not acute, and would not become apparent in short-term clinical trials. This is a critical issue to grasp, since mRNA vaccines are right now being rushed through short-term clinical trials, leaving open the possibility of long-term unintended side effects that were not anticipated by vaccine manufacturers or FDA regulators."

Edited November 16, 2020 by BLA

[BLA + 1,666]

21 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

the mRNA vaccines are trotted out, we're going to be running a giant experiment for the first time in history.

And at record low temperatures, too. 

What amazes me .   .   .  

The Chinese Communist Party , the ones responsible for spreading this Coronavirus Pandemic World Wide is absolved by the media of any responsibility or accountability. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by BLA

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, BLA said:

What amazes me .   .   .  

The Chinese Communist Party , the ones responsible from spreading this Coronavirus Pandemic World Wide is absolved by the media of any responsibility or accountability. 

At this point in the argument (global reset), the origination of the virus is just one component in a much larger plan, or series, of events.  Almost but not quite irrelevant.

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, BLA said:

What amazes me .   .   .  

The Chinese Communist Party , the ones responsible for spreading this Coronavirus Pandemic World Wide is absolved by the media of any responsibility or accountability. 

Of course - it would be Wacist to blame the Chinese. 

[BLA + 1,666]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:10 PM, BLA said:

 

"Importantly, many of the theoretical side effects of an mRNA vaccine would not become apparent until months or years after the initial injection. These adverse events are likely to be systemic, not acute, and would not become apparent in short-term clinical trials. This is a critical issue to grasp, since mRNA vaccines are right now being rushed through short-term clinical trials, leaving open the possibility of long-term unintended side effects that were not anticipated by vaccine manufacturers or FDA regulators."

Fauci said that in order to get back to "normal" 60% to 70% of the U.S. population needed to get vaccinated to create herd immunity.

I did a non scientific poll among friends and acquaintances.  Of the 9 people only one said they might get the vaccine next year.  

Only a couple knew about mRNA vaccine risks before I told them. 

When asked yes or no if he would get their mRNA  vaccine the Pfizer CEO said , "it wouldn't be unethical for me to get at the head of the line"

I take that as a NO.

It's early but when it comes down to it I think majority will object to getting first versions of CV19 vaccines .   Then what happens ? 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by BLA

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

6 hours ago, BLA said:

It's early but when it comes down to it I think majority will object to getting first versions of CV19 vaccines .  

 

The majority won't be offered the option to take the first batches, as they will go to the healthcare workers, the sick, and elderly.

That roll-out format is already commonly used for flu shots.

The reality is many volunteers will have already been the "Guinea pigs" during late phase trials. It's not untested.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Enthalpic

[BLA + 1,666]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

The majority won't be offered the option to take the first batches, as they will go to the healthcare workers, the sick, and elderly.

That roll-out format is already commonly used for flu shots.

The reality is many volunteers will have already been the "Guinea pigs" during late phase trials. It's not untested.

 

 

Read the about science. You missed the point .   .   .   Again.

The two major risk factors attributed to mRNA vaccines are related to  inflammation and immunology .  

Read the about science. You missed the point .   .   .   Again.

The two major risk factors attributed to mRNA vaccines are related to  inflammation and immunology .  THE ASSOCIATE SAFETY CONCERNS WILL LIKELY NOT SHOW UP FOR 1 TO 2 YEARS.  

 * Pfizer said no evidence of serious safety concerns . Only minor Flu-like symptoms . Of course it's only been a month or two.

 * Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla when asked if he would take the vaccines for himself and his family he skirted the issue and replied, " It would be unethical for me and my family to receive the vaccine before others."

 * Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla scheduled regular sale of stock ahead of time to avoid appearance of conflict of interest . . . BUT HE SCHEDULED THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF 90% EFFICACY ON THE SAME DAY AS HIS SCHEFULED STOCK SALE NETTING HIM $5.6 MILLION.

 * The Pharma companies developing vaccines and therapeutics for CV19 have been given immunity .  They are indemnified from liability.  

 * The volunteers that received the mRNA vaccine fro mPfizer or Moderna will be given a weekly checkup for 2 years. 

 * Pfizer was awarded $1.9 Billion by Trump Administration to develop and distribute a vaccine.  

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by BLA

[BLA + 1,666]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

 

The reality is many volunteers will have already been the "Guinea pigs" during late phase trials. It's not untested.

 

 

For some reason all my post a doubling ?

Edited November 18, 2020 by BLA

[BLA + 1,666]

Feel free to get a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccine shot.  

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

28 minutes ago, BLA said:

Feel free to get a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccine shot.  

I probably won't for some time, by then there will be more safety data. I agree there are many unknowns but they are not doing this totally blind.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,177]

11 hours ago, BLA said:

Feel free to get a Pfizer or Moderna mRNA vaccine shot.  

Naw, believe I will wait .......  at least a year!

[JoMack + 547]

I'm getting out that ole carbon dioxide and be first in line for a shot!!  Or two!!  I'm not afraid of the coronavirus.  I'm afraid of never going out again!!  I'm afraid of never seeing my family until I'm lying in state! I want to go to Scotland and visit friends!  Hell, I want to go to NYC and LA and visit people I know and love.  This sucks!  So, fuck this shit!  Sign me up!!!