JACK MA versus Xi Jinping

[Tomasz + 1,608]

So now we have a serious clash between richest man in China founder of Alibaba Jack Ma  who is under investigation allegedly on the personal order of Chinese leader Xi Jinping.

He ordered after October 2020 a very careful scrutiny of the businesses of Jack Ma "to dig in bussiness papers" , who has not appeared in public for quite a long time.

So far we know so much, although there is a lot of speculation about it in bussiness press.

Potentially, this could be a matter with huge consequences for China in my opinion, so hereby begins the following thread.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Tomasz

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

I predict Jack Ma will become a refugee soon enough, and will flee for Singapore or some other more hospitable location.  His business, which is electronic, may not survive, as the CCP will confiscate it or most of it.  Either way, a pleasant retirement in the West sure beats a firing squad or lifetime imprisonment out in those Tibet concentration camps, already holding millions.  

There is a time to hold 'em, and a time to fold 'em.   And for Jack Ma, it is time to fold. China is, at best, a precarious place to go do business. 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Rumour from a Taiwanese source says that he went to Hongkong by boat and disappeared in Singapore. He has a Saint Kitts passport so many countries he can go to but not sure about Covid19 time now. Yes China doesn't allow dual citizenships but the elite normally can have 2, maybe as a half-secret among the Chinese elites.  

Personally I guess he should have some financial Card to protect himself or by giving up most of what his have without interruption , Xi may let him go (not a good time to have a big public case about Jack Ma), under the condition that he will never resurface so Xi can still make his disappearance as a warning to others who are talking behind his back and undermining his power/face.

Edited January 17, 2021 by SUZNV

[Tomasz + 1,608]

From what my brother's wife, a sinologist by profession, who has been to China several times and deals with China, told me under Xi Jinping's presidency, authoritarian tendencies are growing and China closes it borders to foreigners even the  scientific world.

China is also closing itself to the world, therefore it is becoming more and more difficult to conduct research in China and obtain a research grant in China.

But you must take under consideration on the other hand, in the context of the increasingly aggressive US policy towards China, it does not surprise her personally.

Just to be clear -the vast majority of Chinese support the Chinese government because of the unprecedented civilization progress of the last 40 years, and no Chinese dissidents Uighurs, Tibetans, or the people of Hong Kong should obscure the picture.

This is the most serious contender the US has ever faced for many reasons. Even the strongest rival so far USRR  was really  relatively weaker several times, mainly in terms of economy and population.

In general, the greatest advantage of the USA is that it borders on Canada and Mexico, which are harmless to it, but now it is facing its most dangerous rival and in my personal opinion, the last few years are definitely in favor of China, not the USA, even if President Trump and earlier even President Obama Asia has finally seen who is by far the most dangerous rival of the USA.

I recommend also to all foreign observers her observations that in China there is growing nationalism, general big  pride of the power of modern China, and resentment for humiliating China in the nineteenth century by Western powers is quite large because you must undestand that China is really planning for a very  long time and is very memorable,

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Tomasz said:

From what my brother's wife, a sinologist by profession, who has been to China several times and deals with China, told me under Xi Jinping's presidency, authoritarian tendencies are growing and China closes it borders to foreigners even the  scientific world.

China is also closing itself to the world, therefore it is becoming more and more difficult to conduct research in China and obtain a research grant in China.

But you must take under consideration on the other hand, in the context of the increasingly aggressive US policy towards China, it does not surprise her personally.

Just to be clear -the vast majority of Chinese support the Chinese government because of the unprecedented civilization progress of the last 40 years, and no Chinese dissidents Uighurs, Tibetans, or the people of Hong Kong should obscure the picture.

This is the most serious contender the US has ever faced for many reasons. Even the strongest rival so far USRR  was really  relatively weaker several times, mainly in terms of economy and population.

In general, the greatest advantage of the USA is that it borders on Canada and Mexico, which are harmless to it, but now it is facing its most dangerous rival and in my personal opinion, the last few years are definitely in favor of China, not the USA, even if President Trump and earlier even President Obama Asia has finally seen who is by far the most dangerous rival of the USA.

I recommend also to all foreign observers her observations that in China there is growing nationalism, general big  pride of the power of modern China, and resentment for humiliating China in the nineteenth century by Western powers is quite large because you must undestand that China is really planning for a very  long time and is very memorable,

 

I witnessed Chinese nationalism several times, over relatively minor events, and it was extremely widespread and ugly at those times, magnified due to having really only the CCP as a news source.

Many of the Chinese people are more aware now and have had access to more than one news source for the last 15 odd years, but I would wager that nationalism, when it is fomented in ways that only the CCP propaganda department can do it, is still a formidable force, especially among the vast population that has not been exposed to the outside world or outside media sources (most of which are in foreign languages). 

Do not forget that there is still a generation alive that remembers vividly, or at least from their parent's stories, the Cultural Revolution and all that happened then.  That is why I have largely given the citizens of China a pass for much of their "grab all you can" way of doing business and, yes, even living: because they are unsure whether the CCP will once again close the borders and clamp down on the intelligentsia and the "haves".  Whether or not that comes to pass is anybody's guess, but I reserve feelings that it is a distinct possibility, depending how things go over the next few years.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

20 hours ago, SUZNV said:

Rumour from a Taiwanese source says that he went to Hongkong by boat and disappeared in Singapore. He has a Saint Kitts passport so many countries he can go to but not sure about Covid19 time now. Yes China doesn't allow dual citizenships but the elite normally can have 2, maybe as a half-secret among the Chinese elites.  

Personally I guess he should have some financial Card to protect himself or by giving up most of what his have without interruption , Xi may let him go (not a good time to have a big public case about Jack Ma), under the condition that he will never resurface so Xi can still make his disappearance as a warning to others who are talking behind his back and undermining his power/face.

Also a notice to the world that only the evil should continue to deal with them. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Tomasz said:

From what my brother's wife, a sinologist by profession, who has been to China several times and deals with China, told me under Xi Jinping's presidency, authoritarian tendencies are growing and China closes it borders to foreigners even the  scientific world.

China is also closing itself to the world, therefore it is becoming more and more difficult to conduct research in China and obtain a research grant in China.

But you must take under consideration on the other hand, in the context of the increasingly aggressive US policy towards China, it does not surprise her personally.

Just to be clear -the vast majority of Chinese support the Chinese government because of the unprecedented civilization progress of the last 40 years, and no Chinese dissidents Uighurs, Tibetans, or the people of Hong Kong should obscure the picture.

This is the most serious contender the US has ever faced for many reasons. Even the strongest rival so far USRR  was really  relatively weaker several times, mainly in terms of economy and population.

In general, the greatest advantage of the USA is that it borders on Canada and Mexico, which are harmless to it, but now it is facing its most dangerous rival and in my personal opinion, the last few years are definitely in favor of China, not the USA, even if President Trump and earlier even President Obama Asia has finally seen who is by far the most dangerous rival of the USA.

I recommend also to all foreign observers her observations that in China there is growing nationalism, general big  pride of the power of modern China, and resentment for humiliating China in the nineteenth century by Western powers is quite large because you must undestand that China is really planning for a very  long time and is very memorable,

 

The CCP is a fascist dictatorship comparable to Hitler's Germany. Germany, Japan, and all their allied forces were minimal compared to the rest of the world. China has a far larger population, but is far from its military opposition. It is making potential enemies close by though. The rest of the world should ostracize them to the point possible. That is what Xi wants and we should oblige. We need to work with the rest of the world. Helping our opponent is foolish IMHO. 

[LiamP + 168]

Apparently not in a prison at least...

https://news.sky.com/story/jack-ma-appears-in-public-for-the-first-time-since-october-12193286

[SUZNV + 1,197]

4 hours ago, LiamP said:

Apparently not in a prison at least...

https://news.sky.com/story/jack-ma-appears-in-public-for-the-first-time-since-october-12193286

It is an online video so everything is possible.

 

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

From Rock Star 

And hanging out with Arnold .... I'll be back...

To Mr. "I'll shut up and say what ever you want long as you take the cattle prod out of my rear-end" 

All it took was a few months of CCP hospitality to remove all the joy from Jack Ma's existence. Hooray for the CCP

[Marcin2 + 724]

I do not know enough about Chinese tech giants to make substantial judgment, but I would not project this situation as simple personal Jack Ma vs Xi Jinping clash. It is too simplistic to present Jack Ma as another (would be) fugitive that got coerced by CCP because ... he got too much influence ? power ? money ?

Jack Ma is one of the most valuable soft power assets of CCP and China in general.

I would rather tend to think that it isa  regulatory push to govern monopolistic giants that drives this backlash against Ant Group.

Of course it is done the Chinese way, with censorship and Jack Ma disappearing from public view.

Tencent and Ant Group each know more about Chinese than even CCP does. Both companies have enormous clout , also political clout in China. I think that they became too powerful. There are 2 thing here.

First Chinese state wants monopoly over influence and knowledge about Chinese citizens. And second Chinese carefully watch what happens in US and around the world with the power of Facebook and Alphabet, with both companies too powerful for EU or US authorities.

So the picture is much more complicated than it seems,

maybe there is anybody at this site that has more knowledge about the matter and could contribute to this discussion ?

 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

2 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

I do not know enough about Chinese tech giants to make substantial judgment, but I would not project this situation as simple personal Jack Ma vs Xi Jinping clash. It is too simplistic to present Jack Ma as another (would be) fugitive that got coerced by CCP because ... he got too much influence ? power ? money ?

Jack Ma is one of the most valuable soft power assets of CCP and China in general.

I would rather tend to think that it isa  regulatory push to govern monopolistic giants that drives this backlash against Ant Group.

Of course it is done the Chinese way, with censorship and Jack Ma disappearing from public view.

Tencent and Ant Group each know more about Chinese than even CCP does. Both companies have enormous clout , also political clout in China. I think that they became too powerful. There are 2 thing here.

First Chinese state wants monopoly over influence and knowledge about Chinese citizens. And second Chinese carefully watch what happens in US and around the world with the power of Facebook and Alphabet, with both companies too powerful for EU or US authorities.

So the picture is much more complicated than it seems,

maybe there is anybody at this site that has more knowledge about the matter and could contribute to this discussion ?

 

Welcome back.

I don't claim I have more knowledge in this matter because of the scale. But from my conclusion so far:

-Hunter Biden laptop events accidentally exposed but Biden still won the presidency showed me that CCP cannot have a hold of US politicians. That power is in big tech (which behind mainstream). FBI and CIA. No investigation ensures no respectable evidences in anything. Cloud big tech  can remove any social media platform. Which politicians don't depend on mainstream or social media platform for their political careers?

-I assume CIA, FBI are allies or behind with big tech, which are uncheckable by US politicians anymore. You have more room to do thing in the shadow. Big tech can make China economy collapse with ease by lobbying US politicians but they gain nothing from that. They use it as a leverage for China to give them more access to personal information to train their AI and in return, they allow China economy not collapse and Xi can make an impression that China is in the rise to keep his power, and other politicians can use that as an excuse that they will not be strict with China. What can Xi do to US big tech, back by deep state FBI, CIA, politicians and military? 

-Personal information is the new oil. China benefits from consolidate their power inside China by big tech's technology and big tech use China crowd control technique to turn US (may be EU) into China style, by both technologies and financial tools. The green new deal is a planned economy style. The economy nowadays is more about speculation and government control  than productivity or true innovation.

-Institutions cannot keep up with the change in technology, voting in US can be manipulated easily so everything after this election is the illusion of choices. Xi knew that so his purpose is to make CCP  as an important part of Big tech's plan as possible to keep his power domestically. He is no where act on China people benefit, as much the same with Biden act for US benefit.  We are watching a big play designed specifically for our historical knowledge of geopolitics,  countries rise and fall... Globalization would blur the country's sovereignty.

Of course these big tech will not hesitate to swallow their own member if that member is lack behind and cannot prove their value to the council. 

I don't add the alien  in because it is possible enough without the alien. We live in a fast changing world. At least would be less worried about world war. How fast for this transition depends on how much people choose democracy over their greed or fear. Theoretically any prophecy  that Trump is the last president of US or Xi the last chairman of China seems partly right as the next may not have these power anymore. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by SUZNV

[NickW + 2,714]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:54 AM, SUZNV said:

Rumour from a Taiwanese source says that he went to Hongkong by boat and disappeared in Singapore. He has a Saint Kitts passport so many countries he can go to but not sure about Covid19 time now. Yes China doesn't allow dual citizenships but the elite normally can have 2, maybe as a half-secret among the Chinese elites.  

Personally I guess he should have some financial Card to protect himself or by giving up most of what his have without interruption , Xi may let him go (not a good time to have a big public case about Jack Ma), under the condition that he will never resurface so Xi can still make his disappearance as a warning to others who are talking behind his back and undermining his power/face.

The USA, UK, France, Germany etc would grant him political asylum . I bet he holds loads of valuable info on whats going inside the political structure in China. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 1/17/2021 at 11:29 PM, Tomasz said:

From what my brother's wife, a sinologist by profession, who has been to China several times and deals with China, told me under Xi Jinping's presidency, authoritarian tendencies are growing and China closes it borders to foreigners even the  scientific world.

China is also closing itself to the world, therefore it is becoming more and more difficult to conduct research in China and obtain a research grant in China.

But you must take under consideration on the other hand, in the context of the increasingly aggressive US policy towards China, it does not surprise her personally.

Just to be clear -the vast majority of Chinese support the Chinese government because of the unprecedented civilization progress of the last 40 years, and no Chinese dissidents Uighurs, Tibetans, or the people of Hong Kong should obscure the picture.

This is the most serious contender the US has ever faced for many reasons. Even the strongest rival so far USRR  was really  relatively weaker several times, mainly in terms of economy and population.

In general, the greatest advantage of the USA is that it borders on Canada and Mexico, which are harmless to it, but now it is facing its most dangerous rival and in my personal opinion, the last few years are definitely in favor of China, not the USA, even if President Trump and earlier even President Obama Asia has finally seen who is by far the most dangerous rival of the USA.

I recommend also to all foreign observers her observations that in China there is growing nationalism, general big  pride of the power of modern China, and resentment for humiliating China in the nineteenth century by Western powers is quite large because you must undestand that China is really planning for a very  long time and is very memorable,

 

Were it not for Russias several thousand nuclear warheads I am sure the CCP would have discovered some maps by now showing its historical  rights into the heart of Siberia.....

[El Nikko + 2,145]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

Were it not for Russias several thousand nuclear warheads I am sure the CCP would have discovered some maps by now showing its historical  rights into the heart of Siberia.....

This is why keeping Russia out in the cold is such a bad thing. The west has forced Russia in to a situation where it has to sell all of it's military technology to the Chinese who copy it and do exactly what they do to us.

Russia, despite it's nuclear arsenal, is far less of a threat and now China has acquired all of the best Russian technology and is close to catching up with everyone else.

Better than Russian/Western stuff?....probably not yet but they are closing the gap very very fast

 

[Tomasz + 1,608]

 

Well, for now the West is pushing even  into Ukraine and Belarus.

I propose to establish a NATO base 20 kilometers from Moscow and impose more  sanctions on Russia.

Then, certainly, despite the evident breach of the agreement with Gorbachev on not extending NATO beyond reunified Germany, you have a great chance to convince the Kremlin that the West, getting into Moscow's tollbooths, is a greater threat than China.

Source:

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Edited January 23, 2021 by Tomasz

[Tomasz + 1,608]

So I suggest to read very carefully an article from Anatoly Kalin's blog

When Russians Were Americanophiles by Anatoly Karlin

Quote

 

At the tail end of the Cold War, there was an incredible atmosphere of Americanophilia throughout the USSR, including amongst Russians.

Blue – approve of USA; orange – disapprove.

Around 75%-80% of Russians approved of the United States around 1990, versus <10% disapproval.

By modern standards, this would have put Russia into the top leagues of America fans, such as Poland, Israel, and the United Kingdom. It was also around 10%-15% points higher than contemporary US approval of Russia.

The blogger genby dug up a VCIOM poll from 1990 asking Russians – that is, Russians within the RSFSR, i.e. the territory of the modern day Russian Federation – what they thought about Americans.

The poll was redone in 2015, keeping the same questions, which allows a direct comparison between the two dates.

What in your opinion characterizes the United States? 1990      2015

High criminality and moral degradation 1             15

No warmth in people’s relations             1            15

High living standards      35           12

Large gap between rich and poor       5             11

Racial discrimination      1             9

Highly developed science and technology          15           7

Success depends on personal effort      20           7

Free society       13           5

Other    .              6

Can’t say for sure            10           12

 

Is US government friendly or hostile to Russia?1990   2015

Friendly 35   3

Not very friendly 40   32

Hostile 2  59

Can’t say 23 6

I would wager Russian opinions on America were more positive c.1990 than the opinions of the average American on his own country today!

These results speak for themselves and hardly need more commentary.

Nowadays, of course, things are rather different. Suffice to say the numbers of America fans have plummeted, while the percentage of Russians with actively negative views emerged essentially out of nowhere to constitute majority opinion. According to other polls, Russian approval of the US rarely breaks above 30%, and the sentiments are quite mutual. Just 1% (that’s one percent) of Russians approved of US leadership by 2016. Although there were hopes that this trend would turn around after Trump, which seemed plausible in early 2017 and indeed seemed to be happening, this was in the end not to be.

What I think is more significant is that nobody likes to talk about it now, because it reflects badly on pretty much everyone.

Russians would have to acknowledge that they were naive idiots who threw away an empire centuries in the making to end up within the borders of old Muscovy in exchange for… jeans and “common human values.” These figures testify to the complete and utter failure of Soviet propaganda, which spent decades spinning tales about American criminality, unemployment, and lynched Negroes only to end up with a society with some of the most Americanophile sentiments in the entire world. It also makes it much harder to scapegoat Gorbachev, or the mythical saboteurs and CIA agents in power that feature prominently in sovok conspiracy theories, for unraveling the Soviet Union, when ordinary Soviets themselves considered America the next best thing since Lenin and the US government to be their friend.

For their part, Americans would have to acknowledge that Russians do not have a kneejerk hatred of America, and that the “loss of Russia” was largely of their own doing. The arrogant refusal to take into account Russian interests after the Cold War, instead bombing their allies, expanding NATO to Russian borders in contravention of verbal commitments made to the USSR, and for all intents and purposes treating it as a defeated Power, may have made sense when it seemed that the US would be the world’s dominant hyperpower for the foreseeable future and Russia was doomed to die anyway – as was conventional wisdom by the late 1990s. And from a purely Realpolitik perspective, the results have hardly been catastrophic; the US gained a geopolitical foothold in Eastern Europe, tied up further European integration into an Atlantic framework, and closed off the possibility of the “Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok” envisaged by Charles de Gaulle. On the other hand, in a world where China is fast becoming a peer competitor – with the implicit backing of a resentful Russia – this may, in retrospect, not have been the best long-term play.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Tomasz

[SUZNV + 1,197]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

The USA, UK, France, Germany etc would grant him political asylum . I bet he holds loads of valuable info on whats going inside the political structure in China. 

IMHO, Xi wouldn't allow him to go exile to these countries as part of the deal because these can protect Jack Ma if they choose to do so, therefore  it is safe for Jack Ma to disclose national secret. Besides, Saint Kitts is much lower in tax. But get away from China ensure Jack Ma to have his money safe.

Edited January 23, 2021 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 hours ago, El Nikko said:

This is why keeping Russia out in the cold is such a bad thing. The west has forced Russia in to a situation where it has to sell all of it's military technology to the Chinese who copy it and do exactly what they do to us.

Russia, despite it's nuclear arsenal, is far less of a threat and now China has acquired all of the best Russian technology and is close to catching up with everyone else.

Better than Russian/Western stuff?....probably not yet but they are closing the gap very very fast

 

That ain't no Cessna!  They have been working on military procurement, copying planes and systems, and moving to full production for far longer than they have been working on commercial endeavors.  It was a good strategy: 1. National defense  2. Largest technology hurdles 3. most expensive R & D  4. Knowledge gained can be transferred to commercial aircraft, engines & systems.

Don't write these guys off as being amateurs, those days are long gone.  They are dedicated, driven and funded/provided with anything they need.

[NickW + 2,714]

20 hours ago, Tomasz said:

 

Well, for now the West is pushing even  into Ukraine and Belarus.

I propose to establish a NATO base 20 kilometers from Moscow and impose more  sanctions on Russia.

Then, certainly, despite the evident breach of the agreement with Gorbachev on not extending NATO beyond reunified Germany, you have a great chance to convince the Kremlin that the West, getting into Moscow's tollbooths, is a greater threat than China.

Source:

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

I have known a number of Poles. Romanians  and Baltic state nationals and they all had the same opinion. They wanted to get into NATO ASAP as they feared a re-energised Russia more than anything. 

Difficult one for NATO if former eastern bloc countries are pleading to join the alliance. 

[Tomasz + 1,608]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

I have known a number of Poles. Romanians  and Baltic state nationals and they all had the same opinion. They wanted to get into NATO ASAP as they feared a re-energised Russia more than anything. 

Difficult one for NATO if former eastern bloc countries are pleading to join the alliance. 

 

I will say this - I support the presence of Poland or the Baltic states in NATO because of their history of occupation by Russia.

I omit the fact that I cannot imagine how contemporary Poland could be in the Russian sphere of influence. And I cannot imagine because I think that some 50% of nationalistic  Poles would never ever agree to that and the war in Europe, or at least a decent guerrilla war would be certain.

 Russia's main goal is nowadays to neutralize the region. The only serious player here is Poland. Before 2014, the Polish government was even a certain threat to Russia, it was pushing itself into Ukraine and Belarus.

I think, however, that if you've heard anything about the current Polish government of Law and Justice Party in Europe recently it's that it is curiously incompetent, Russophobic to exaggeration, anti-German and anti-European. In general, it is a government with which the entire European Union has rather a serious problem, apart from the much weaker Hungary

So Poland biggest player is absolutely no  obstacle for Russia in achieving goals in Europe, and this is a successful implementation of Russia's maximum goals towards Poland.

However at the some time I believe that Russia should at all costs defend its dominance in Belarus and Ukraine because these countries are historically strongly tied to Russia and when you look at the map, Russia has nowhere to go back.

So as I accept the previous NATO enlargement, I think Russia has done well in Ukraine to say stop.

Not that I support murdering people in civil war but this eternal expansion to the east must have limits - of course, it is a pity that several thousand people died because of this, but I recommend a lecture by Professor Mearheimer at the Jagiellonian University.

I wil not write long post because I think the best possible explanation to what happened in 2014 is this video by famous US geopolitical prof John Mearsheimer from University of Chicao. I suggest watching it and I dont have anything to add

 

[Tomasz + 1,608]

Final resolution

China decided to end war with Alibaba founder

Quote

 

The Chinese financial and technology company Ant Group, a subsidiary of Jack Ma's Alibaba, has agreed with Chinese regulators a restructuring plan, according to which the company will be turned into a financial holding, Bloomberg reported, citing sources.

 

By such actions, the agency writes, Beijing decided to end the war with the founder of Alibaba.

Now the requirements for the capital of a business structure will be similar to those that apply to According to the plan, the holding will include all Ant enterprises, including blockchain and food delivery. To this end, the company proposed to include only financial transactions in the new structure.

These rules, say the agency's interlocutors, will almost certainly slow down Ant Group's pace of development, which has made it fast to become the dominant player in China's high-tech industry.

However, the company is now at the stage of exploring the possibility of resuming its initial public offering, which was stopped by regulators. However, taking into account that the structure of the fintech giant will change dramatically, the authorities may take a long time to decide on the approval of the listing.

Recall that in November of last 2020, the Chinese authorities ordered the suspension of the Ant Group share placement. The company entered the Chinese stock market. Reason: Jack Ma's statements. The billionaire criticized the rules governing the high-tech industry in China.