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33 minutes ago, Boat said:

You showed no evidence that by winterization of turbines like Iowa does would not fix the turbine problem in Texas.

Actually, NO ONE winterizes their turbines as there is nothing TO winterize. Every turbine must stop due to freezing fog/rain.  Only a rare few turbines even have heated leading edges and those can only be used when the turbine is not spinning, and then you had better hope there is only build up on the leading edges because that is the only heated section on the turbine.  They cannot be restarted until a manual visual inspection happens, so if the dethawing happens at dusk... you are SNAFU'd until morning for a sequential restart of the turbines in question.  Now maybe this aspect of WTG's has changed, I have not been on the daily maintenance side of things.  I suppose the pitot tubes in Texas might not be heated, so ok, there is a winterizing item.  Of course, every pitot tube I have ever had my hands on has a built in heating element as they are made for the aviation sector and the wind turbines just poached them.  So...  hook up some wires. 

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7 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

That site you linked was even able to compare the States of Iowa vs Texas regarding the direct assertion:

image.thumb.png.86aa221937df6266afb0a81c7bd7242d.png

To be clear why I wanted to say was Iowa has 44% of their electricity in renewables. Texas is in the low 20’s. The point was the turbines in Iowa are weatherized and don’t cause death and economic calamity with every big storm. 
It’s true Texas has more turbines and a poor decision not to weatherize them caused death and economic calamity. Glad I could clear that up for you. 
Now before anyone of you rises on my list of,...most likely not to google... try a google on winterization pkgs in Iowa or any northern area for wind turbines. What does GE offer, what do other leading wind manufacturers offer. Isn’t this question burning in your mind? Did it occurred to you to look? Why not? 

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How some of the coldest regions keep their turbines turning

So, how do wind farms respond to these different types of ice, to keep their turbines from shutting down as they did in Texas?

In wetter places like Scandinavia and Scotland, some turbines are filled with hot air while others have a special coating to prevent ice from forming. These winter-ready turbines cost about 5 percent more than regular turbines, and the heating process uses up some of their energy output, Stefan Skarp, who oversees wind power for Swedish utility Skellefteå Kraft, told Bloomberg News. Hu’s team is working on more energy-efficient technologies that could be cheaper.

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1 hour ago, Boat said:

To be clear why I wanted to say was Iowa has 44% of their electricity in renewables. Texas is in the low 20’s. The point was the turbines in Iowa are weatherized and don’t cause death and economic calamity with every big storm. 
It’s true Texas has more turbines and a poor decision not to weatherize them caused death and economic calamity. Glad I could clear that up for you. 
Now before anyone of you rises on my list of,...most likely not to google... try a google on winterization pkgs in Iowa or any northern area for wind turbines. What does GE offer, what do other leading wind manufacturers offer. Isn’t this question burning in your mind? Did it occurred to you to look? Why not? 

You cleared it up for you, not me or anyone else.  I know the turbines SHOULD be "weatherized".  The reason I put the " " is that they never should have been "de-weatherized", but somebody must have asked the OEMs to do so in some sort of cost-saving drive.  Probably looked real good on the spreadsheets.

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1 hour ago, Boat said:

How some of the coldest regions keep their turbines turning

So, how do wind farms respond to these different types of ice, to keep their turbines from shutting down as they did in Texas?

In wetter places like Scandinavia and Scotland, some turbines are filled with hot air while others have a special coating to prevent ice from forming. These winter-ready turbines cost about 5 percent more than regular turbines, and the heating process uses up some of their energy output, Stefan Skarp, who oversees wind power for Swedish utility Skellefteå Kraft, told Bloomberg News. Hu’s team is working on more energy-efficient technologies that could be cheaper.

We know.

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21 hours ago, Robert Ziegler said:

Blackouts in Europe? Just wait a bit. Their grid was way more robust than in the US, but the Energiewende took care of that too. Austrian military study predicts massive, long-lasting blackouts in Europe..... It all starts with frequency getting out of wack....

Unlikely to happen

There has been a lot of investment in grid scale battery storage to support grid frequency. Longer term this will be a 2nd life use for old EV batteries. 

Plus pump storage and interconnection. Europe is now interconnected to North Africa, West Asia (turkey), and Russia. The latter two have loads of Hydro capacity. 

Also loads of emergency gensets tied into  the system on short term operating reserve arrangements

This interactive map shows how much interconnector there is. 

electricityMap | Live CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption

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On 2/27/2021 at 10:29 PM, Boat said:

So if abundant hypersonic missiles that cost millions can take out ships that cost billions, what good are those ships. Kinda like if 500 nukes can kill the world multiple times over why do we need thousands? Why would we need a military space program?

All countries have very vulnerable infrastructure that is impossible to protect. A handful of countries can retaliate but any major war and were in a mad max scenario. Hundreds of billions in military spending won’t save any country. So why do it? 
So for every aircraft carrier we spend 12 billion with thousands onboard. Does anything the US military has stop a missile speeding along at 38,000 mph? What if our adversary has thousands of them. War and the threat of war has changed dramatically and will continue to do so. The hypersonic missile basically has made conventional warfare obsolete. The digital age and massive populations has made our infrastructure venerable. Our thinking and spending needs to change with it.

 To answer your question "does the US military have an anti-hypersonic missile capability", they are working on it. They are developing high-powered lasers for this purpose, and my understanding is that the only catch is figuring out how to aim them properly. Size is also an issue. The Ford class carrier has a compartment specifically set aside for the laser weapon once it is available. The first laser weapon the US military attempted was a "gas-pulse" laser inside a jumbo jet, but these days, it is much easier to use smaller lasers and bundles of fine fibre optic cables. It is a very complex field and I am no expert on it but I hear that many breakthroughs have been made in the past decade and the technology should be mature within 5 years.

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(edited)

8 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Erm, not what I wrote bud.  Fermi was same half way design as a near standard Pressure water reactor.  Only addition was that it was also a partial breeder reactor.

Liquid salt, breeder... any kind of problem, the reactants pour via gravity into their own containers which are not large enough for continuous reaction or outgasing.  Last two portions were done in the late 70's at Oak Ridge same with liquid salt.  Breeder, portion is partially done but did not get all the poisons out of(Namely Tritium).  What is poignant was that breeder, while it made plutonium, ate it an ate the other long lived poisons.  I believe it left Iodine/cesium and I forget which one of them has an 800 year half life. 

Well, Fermi 1 did breed some fertile to fissile, the reactor coolant did not require pressurization, avoided the potential for hydrogen generation, and operated at a much higher temperature to increasing the thermodynamic efficiency on the rankine cycle.  And it did work, even after the partial meltdown was repaired.

Molten salt has similar advantages, including enhanced safety issues as you point out.  Hopefully the fluoride salts don't end up attacking the pressure parts.

Lots of room for improvement.  If Washington was not so interested in easy naval reactors and getting material to make bombs, we'd probably have some LFTR's in service instead of LWR's.

But, we are off topic again, sorry...

Edited by turbguy
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6 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

You cleared it up for you, not me or anyone else.  I know the turbines SHOULD be "weatherized".  The reason I put the " " is that they never should have been "de-weatherized", but somebody must have asked the OEMs to do so in some sort of cost-saving drive.  Probably looked real good on the spreadsheets.

We are in agreement. The problem in Texas was in the decision making to not add weatherization for not only wind but most of its energy generation. That’s what the argument should have been about from the beginning. But alas I end up fact checking the Trumpism gang. 
What’s weird is why. I would assume Republicans along with Dems customers just want the most reliable, cleanest and cost competitive energy available. That way we can compete with all those evil countries out there for goods and services. 

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10 hours ago, Boat said:

You showed no evidence that by winterization of turbines like Iowa does would not fix the turbine problem in Texas. The chart does show just how little consumption Texas uses from wind in comparison to FF. The next storm has the potential to be devistating unless FF infrastructure like wind is weatherized. 
Glad I could clear up another Trumpism type misdirection post that does not do justice to the debate on how to end the killing and economic damage from large winter systems in Texas. You know, typical Ward speak.

You should try Ward speak sometimes. It has the precision of intelligent thought your drivel lacks. The bolded part above, which you wrote indicates you think wind is a Fossil Fuel? Or like Enthalpic, you'll now attempt to redefine FF infrastructure to mean something it isn't.  The total power generated in Texas dwarfs the puny production of Iowa. The percentage of wind in Texas was already too high, CREATING the problem we just witnessed. @Dan Clemmensen was close, he understood the b that every watt of wind needs a backup watt from FF, a concept you can't grok. 

Now as to your brilliant idea that windmills need to be heated, just how much energy does that draw? Hint, for Texas the answer is in the GIGAWATTS. So, during a power emergency where gigawatts need to be shed just to keep the grid stable, your bright idea is to load more demand to warm up wind turbines? What's it like to go thru life that unable to think properly? Drink a lot to kill those last few brain cells? 

 

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It would appear that @Ward Smith is right in his second paragraph above.  And I was wrong to assume that anti-icing and de-icing systems on wind turbines MUST have been available since they are commonly used in aviation.  It turns out, at least according the following paper from www.researchgate.net, that one of the common systems deployed on aircraft, that of hot air being routed along wing leading edges, is not very efficient or effective on wind turbine blades due to size and heat loss.  In fact, it would require a lot of energy to make them work at all.  Since we use jet engine bleed air (super hot) to heat the wing leading edges, my assumption proves fatal since, in the case of wind turbines, there is no jet engine to bleed hot air from (unless you position one at the base of a wind turbine structure and run it all the time!).

Ice protection systems for wind turbines in cold climate:characteristics, comparisons and analysis (it is a pdf so you will have to scroll down til you see the title in the link)

Here is an excerpt about hot air injection, one of the more common systems utilized in aircraft anti-icing and de-icing (the text does not C&P well, so I had to do snapshots instead):

image.png.d2b0c225ee483f1379bfb86a50a52ee0.png

image.thumb.png.6d7f610352cfc6280feefac6b4a9b2dd.png

 

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3 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

It would appear that @Ward Smith is right in his second paragraph above.  And I was wrong to assume that anti-icing and de-icing systems on wind turbines MUST have been available since they are commonly used in aviation.  It turns out, at least according the following paper from www.researchgate.net, that one of the common systems deployed on aircraft, that of hot air being routed along wing leading edges, is not very efficient or effective on wind turbine blades due to size and heat loss.  In fact, it would require a lot of energy to make them work at all.  Since we use jet engine bleed air (super hot) to heat the wing leading edges, my assumption proves fatal since, in the case of wind turbines, there is no jet engine to bleed hot air from (unless you position one at the base of a wind turbine structure and run it all the time!).

Ice protection systems for wind turbines in cold climate:characteristics, comparisons and analysis (it is a pdf so you will have to scroll down til you see the title in the link)

Here is an excerpt about hot air injection, one of the more common systems utilized in aircraft anti-icing and de-icing (the text does not C&P well, so I had to do snapshots instead):

image.png.d2b0c225ee483f1379bfb86a50a52ee0.png

image.thumb.png.6d7f610352cfc6280feefac6b4a9b2dd.png

 

Do not ignore the waste heat generated from gearing/bearing losses. That could easily be about 10 KW per blade for larger wind machines.

 

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(edited)

18 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Hmmm, but practically, that would turn Chicago's Black and Hispanic neighborhoods into war zones, and the Left, together with their tool BLM, would wail to the heavens that is was simply the height of racism.  The mob with the Democrat Machine used to rule Chicago; Now I'd say the drug lords/gangs with the Democrat Machine rules Chicago.  Those Dems use the tools available to them!  :)  A cleanout is not going to happen any time soon as long as the Democrats rule, and it would take a long time to right the ship under Republican leadership, for all the same reasons.  Having said that, the time is ripe for Republicans: State debt, mismanagement of Chicago, crime/murder rates in Chicago that never seem to go down, Madigan finally getting thrown out (and hopefully convicted by the FBI), and Illinoisan's general displeasure with the goings on of big government.

One can hope.  Illinois, south of Jolliet or thereabouts, is a great and beautiful state, with pristine agriculture and a great work ethic.

It is good timing that the following article regarding Madigan just came out from the National Review.  He hasn't been taken in by the FBI yet, but Illinois has a fair record of locking up politicians so we can remain hopeful the FBI doesn't abandon the investigations too easily.  Anyway, if you read the article about this guy, you may see what it was I was on about.

America’s Last Machine Boss Goes Down

(Excerpt)

The Chicago machine turned out some of the most notorious names in American public corruption, including Anton Cermak, Richard J. Daley, and Ed Kelly. The machine also turned out Mike Madigan, who ruled over Illinois politics for 50 years, 36 of which he spent calling the shots as House speaker.

Most people thought Madigan would only leave office in handcuffs or a casket. Most people were wrong. For the first time since 1970, “the Velvet Hammer” is not representing Chicago’s southwest side in the state capitol: Madigan announced his resignation on Feb. 18, just weeks after losing his spot as House speaker when his Democratic caucus abandoned him.

Madigan is the most skilled politician you’ve never heard of and the most powerful state-level official in American history. During his tenure, the mission of Illinois government could be summed up in a question:

“What’s in it for me?”

Madigan’s dominance of state and local politics will never be matched, and it came at the expense of a once-proud state, which now must claw its way out of the mess he made. But to make sense of that mess and the man’s monumental career — to understand how Illinois got here and how it can move forward — you have to start at the beginning.

(and so do you :) )

Edited by Dan Warnick
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3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Do not ignore the waste heat generated from gearing/bearing losses. That could easily be about 10 KW per blade for larger wind machines.

 

Have you had time to read the screen clips and/or the article?  Is 10 KW/blade enough?

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3 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Have you had time to read the screen clips and/or the article?  Is 10 KW/blade enough?

Actually, I'm not sure that would work in REALLY SEVERE conditions, but it right there to use...

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43 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Actually, I'm not sure that would work in REALLY SEVERE conditions, but it right there to use...

Blown air does not work on medium sized turbines.  Main reason is that you cannot blow truly hot air as it will melt the blades in question, so length of blown air is very minimal or you have to use EXPENSIVE high cost piping and even then this does not work well either.  Likewise they usually shut down when using blown air and then restart afterwards.  The only method that actually works is in blade heating elements and then they only place it on the leading edges and likewise only use it when the WTG is pulled out of the wind and stopped otherwise the air flow around the blade cools it faster than the blade can heat its skin. 

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On 2/27/2021 at 12:46 PM, surrept33 said:

I think the coolest part of Chicago was how it managed to be something like the 'infrastructure capital of the world' for various reasons - geography for one, but also the ingenuity of her people:

https://interactive.wttw.com/chicago-river-tour/how-chicago-reversed-river-animated

 

You should check out the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District, once the largest in the world if I remember correctly, something on the order of a billion+ gallons per day.  For something ongoing look into the Deep Tunnel Project, 100+ miles.

            waltz 

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On 2/27/2021 at 12:46 PM, Ecocharger said:

Last name was Kemp (not my last name), a great-great-great-grandfather, he had a colorful history, served as a captain in the Michigan/Illinois militia, fought in the Blackhawk War of 1832/3, was overrun in battle and survived by feigning death, later seconded to fight against Mexican army. Oh, he had also survived the Battle of Waterloo, was a non-com in the British Army. The late Jack Kemp is about an eighth cousin. Still welcome? That's okay, I didn't think so.

I think that my ancestor might have been able to survive in Chicago today.

That may have been too much of an “inside” joke.  Google “Mrs. O’Leary’s cow”.  Sounds like your distant grandfather would do just fine today and we could use any economic conservatives who can put up with the lunacy.  Speed cameras go into affect tomorrow, fines start at just six mph over.  For “SAFETY”, of course.

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4 minutes ago, waltz said:

Speed cameras go into affect tomorrow, fines start at just six mph over.  For “SAFETY”, of course.

C'mon man, Chicago needs the revenue as too many fleeing. Personally I would challenge any "speed camera ticket" in court. Hard to keep calibration like a cruisers radar gun. So what happens in Chicago, Peoria is to follow soon after. 

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(edited)

17 minutes ago, waltz said:

That may have been too much of an “inside” joke.  Google “Mrs. O’Leary’s cow”.  Sounds like your distant grandfather would do just fine today and we could use any economic conservatives who can put up with the lunacy.  Speed cameras go into affect tomorrow, fines start at just six mph over.  For “SAFETY”, of course.

We have had them in OR for yrs, greatest revenue generator Washington Co has ever seen, and in MPLS Mn, speaking to MPLS the citizens revolted and finally won a major victory. Cars were considerer personal property and guess what...taking a photo is against the law on or in personal property....or at least it was. I am quite sure that has been amended....lmao

https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/tax-credits-deductions/discussion/yes-a-car-is-considered-personal-property-so-are-boats/01/398634#M50424

https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/personal-injury/types-of-personal-injury-claims/videotaping-and-photography-on-private-property.html

Edited by Eyes Wide Open
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WIND AND HOT AIR

It has been overlooked that usually-warm Texas received a double whammy. Not a single hit, but a double.

There are two types of icing: glazing and rime. Glazing occurs when liquid precipitation hits objects as the temperature drops below freezing. Rime occurs when supercooled water micro-droplets within fog come into contact with objects in well-below-freezing weather. 

Texas got both. 

My understanding is, that's fairly rare. Most machines operating in extreme cold weather conditions are protected against rime ice. Therefore, most of the research has been directed toward rime. 

The first wind turbine connected to a grid was on Grandpa's Knob in Vermont, 1941. It didn't last all that long. Cause of death: rime ice. 

Not to jar you with a segue, but we can't build solar farms on every square mile of desert: too large an array will change the weather. Similarly, we can't build wind turbines in every so-called wind corridor: the weather will change them. 

Put simply, there is a finite limit to wind and solar energy. Not only due to the above, but due to scarcity of "rare earth" metals/elements. It has been estimated that the renewables being planned will increase the use of these by 14-fold. The price of nickel and cadmium and zinc and even copper is going to get awfully high. As windmill blades degrade and yaw hydraulics deteriorate, vast junk-heaps will accumulate. 

Hydrogen manufactured from steam-treated methane is a low-carbon process. The carbon can be easily captured and stored, but at some cost. The ITER is some years away and is called "experimental" for a reason--it may or may not be a viable answer. If there is a finite limit to wind and solar and hydrogen and nuclear fusion are futuristic, then what, pray tell, will be the short-term solution?

It may well be that different regions are best served by region-specific, uniquely-tailored energy sources. Just as you wouldn't go snow-skiing in Texas, maybe you shouldn't expect to receive your energy from wind, either. Solar fits Arizona perfectly, especially when coupled with hydroelectric from the Glenn Canyon Dam. I understand that offshore wind turbines serve the Netherlands well, but for all needed energy to be emitted by them the North Sea would have to be covered by windmills. While I have some reservations about mild-weather California going it alone with renewables--nothing but solar and wind coupled to lithium-ion battery storage--I think renewables are better suited for them than for most places. As long as all possible renewable energy sources are forced upon people through the illusory optics and easy money incentives plied by the federal government, we're going to have more and more energy failures. 

One size definitely does not fit all. Please, someone should tell Mr. Biden. Before it's too late.

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1 minute ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

WIND AND HOT AIR

It has been overlooked that usually-warm Texas received a double whammy. Not a single hit, but a double.

There are two types of icing: glazing and rime. Glazing occurs when liquid precipitation hits objects as the temperature drops below freezing. Rime occurs when supercooled water micro-droplets within fog come into contact with objects in well-below-freezing weather. 

Texas got both. 

I can vouch for that statement......got the photos posted on here. Drizzled at 28 degrees and falling then frozen fog at 10 degrees and colder for 48 hours+ and was truly miserable losing power and water. I was fortunate enough to have big genset on my bus.

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On 2/26/2021 at 11:50 PM, Dan Warnick said:

That is unusual for @ronwagn.

What gives, Ron?

I downgraded it. Just tired of green fairy tales about hydrogen etc. which will end up being more expensive and subsidized.

 

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2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

It is good timing that the following article regarding Madigan just came out from the National Review.  He hasn't been taken in by the FBI yet, but Illinois has a fair record of locking up politicians so we can remain hopeful the FBI doesn't abandon the investigations too easily.  Anyway, if you read the article about this guy, you may see what it was I was on about.

America’s Last Machine Boss Goes Down

(Excerpt)

The Chicago machine turned out some of the most notorious names in American public corruption, including Anton Cermak, Richard J. Daley, and Ed Kelly. The machine also turned out Mike Madigan, who ruled over Illinois politics for 50 years, 36 of which he spent calling the shots as House speaker.

Most people thought Madigan would only leave office in handcuffs or a casket. Most people were wrong. For the first time since 1970, “the Velvet Hammer” is not representing Chicago’s southwest side in the state capitol: Madigan announced his resignation on Feb. 18, just weeks after losing his spot as House speaker when his Democratic caucus abandoned him.

Madigan is the most skilled politician you’ve never heard of and the most powerful state-level official in American history. During his tenure, the mission of Illinois government could be summed up in a question:

“What’s in it for me?”

Madigan’s dominance of state and local politics will never be matched, and it came at the expense of a once-proud state, which now must claw its way out of the mess he made. But to make sense of that mess and the man’s monumental career — to understand how Illinois got here and how it can move forward — you have to start at the beginning.

(and so do you :) )

Dan, they missed the most ironic part, Madigan’s handpicked replacement had to bow out  after less than 72 hours.  Why, one might ask?  Because Madigan himself found something sketchy in his past, this was someone on his staff.  He will wield power and influence until he is behind bars or under earth.

       waltz 

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