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1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Cobalt will be needed for hundreds of millions of EV batteries, for storage batteries, this requires massive expansion of cobalt mining using child labor.

Wrong. Batteries using cobalt will be a small percentage of all EV and storage batteries. stationary ("storage") batteries will not use it at all, and neither will any EVs except high-performance luxury cars. The only reason NCM batteries are currently used for stationary batteries is that they are available right now in quantity. For EVs, they are used both  because they are available and because they have superior energy density both per kilogram and per liter, and most EVs are currently sold in the performance market, not the budget market. Cheaper EVs using LFP batteries (no cobalt) are now on the market, including the low end of the Tesla Model 3 made in China.  The big stationary batteries currently in place will eventually reach EOL and be replaced, which will allow their cobalt to be recovered.

However, cobalt is used for high-performance metal alloys, including for gas turbine blades. This has been true for decades, using child labor. This problem did not get any attention until cobalt began being used in EV batteries.

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1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Mr Smith I believe " The Rest Of The Story" has been sorely overlooked. While I do not have a passion for autos I do have a say bend for boats. With that being said fiberglassing or composite boat buliding is a rather very eco unfriendly process...very. 

In order to build enough turbines to empower this green revolution the production of blades would go up exponentially...in the millions of blades.

That would result in a environment nightmare. The amount of glass used in one blade is extraordinary scale that to millions it is almost mind numbing.

It would be quite interesting to see a numbers guy scale up the amount of pollution required to build all those blades. Composite pollution is deadly make no mistakes.

https://www.compositemood.com/boat-construction-composites-eco-compatibility/

It’s now a long time that the problem of recycling fiberglass and composite materials in general, is considered and studied but, although a considerable effort has been made internationally to find economically sustainable solutions, at the state of the art there are several recycling techniques but none really satisfactory.

It is important to emphasize that the frontier of ecological sustainability is no longer seen only from the point of view of the use of raw materials that should be degradable or easily disposed of at the end of their life, but also by implementing efficient and low energy impact systems. It must be also remembered that recyclability is an important concept of “eco-compatibility” that allows the use of materials that are not eco-friendly in themselves, but easily separable from one another

Other options to replace fiberglass:

https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2019/new-materials-could-lead-to-recyclable-wind-blades.html

https://www.nap.edu/read/1824/chapter/6

WIND TURBINE ROTOR DESIGN ISSUES

Wind turbine rotor blades are a high-technology product that must be produced at moderate cost for the resulting energy to be competitive in price. This means that the basic materials must provide a lot of long-term mechanical performance per unit cost and that they must be efficiently manufactured into their final form, including the cost of sufficient quality control. Unless a material choice and fabrication system can satisfy both of these requirements, it will not be appropriate for advancing the state of the art for economical production of power from the wind.

Both fiberglass-reinforced and wood/epoxy composites have been shown to have the combination of strength and low material and fabrication costs required for competitive blade manufacture. Their fabrication requirements and constraints, the current state of their materials database,

http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/Trade/AlBladeOrders.asp Extruded with a steel shaft. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

Wrong. Batteries using cobalt will be a small percentage of all EV and storage batteries. stationary ("storage") batteries will not use it at all, and neither will any EVs except high-performance luxury cars. The only reason NCM batteries are currently used for stationary batteries is that they are available right now in quantity. For EVs, they are used both  because they are available and because they have superior energy density both per kilogram and per liter, and most EVs are currently sold in the performance market, not the budget market. Cheaper EVs using LFP batteries (no cobalt) are now on the market, including the low end of the Tesla Model 3 made in China.  The big stationary batteries currently in place will eventually reach EOL and be replaced, which will allow their cobalt to be recovered.

However, cobalt is used for high-performance metal alloys, including for gas turbine blades. This has been true for decades, using child labor. This problem did not get any attention until cobalt began being used in EV batteries.

The current generation of EV models continues to rely on cobalt, it will continue as the mainstay.

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2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Cobalt will be needed for hundreds of millions of EV batteries, for storage batteries, this requires massive expansion of cobalt mining using child labor.

To be clear REE's do not include cobalt. Cobalt, lithium et al are merely critical elements in the GREED New Deal (hat tip to @ceo_energemsier) 😉

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28 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

To be clear REE's do not include cobalt. Cobalt, lithium et al are merely critical elements in the GREED New Deal (hat tip to @ceo_energemsier) 😉

How many REE's are there as a percentage of the current stock on the road or in the sales room? They are stil rolling out the cobalt models from the factories in record numbers.

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44 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The current generation of EV models continues to rely on cobalt, it will continue as the mainstay.

The "current generation" includes those "low end" Model 3's currently being produced in China using LFP batteries, and several much cheaper Chinese EVs also using LFP batteries.  Using those model 3's as an example, their full-battery range is lower: maybe 250 miles instead of 320 miles. 250 miles of range is more than the top range of the high end for most EVs except Teslas. Any EV manufacturer that wants to enter the budget end of the market will be forced to adopt LFP or some lower-cost cobalt-free alternative. The budget end of the market is where the volume is in today's ICE market, and I presume this will continue to be true as EVs penetrate the market.

As a side note, in everyday use the LFP is almost equal to today's NCM batteries, because in everyday use, you don't charge your NCM battery past about 80%, and on those rare occasions when you do, you only charge above 80% v-e-r-y  s-l-o-w-l-y. By contrast, you  can charge LFP all the way to 100% at a high rate of charge.

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(edited)

15 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

How many REE's are there as a percentage of the current stock on the road or in the sales room? They are stil rolling out the cobalt models from the factories in record numbers.

44 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

To be clear REE's do not include cobalt. Cobalt, lithium et al are merely critical elements in the GREED New Deal (hat tip to @ceo_energemsier) 😉

So here is an answer, about 600,000 vehicles available by 2026, just a drop in the bucket.

https://diystockpicker.com/ree-stock-vcvc-stock-analysis/

Edited by Ecocharger
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1 hour ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

However, cobalt is used for high-performance metal alloys, including for gas turbine blades. This has been true for decades, using child labor. This problem did not get any attention until cobalt began being used in EV batteries.

So true.  I never understood why this group never achnowledged the elemental content of superalloys, many of which contain FE as a tramp element. More than just blades, as well.

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(edited)

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

So true.  I never understood why this group never achnowledged the elemental content of superalloys, many of which contain FE as a tramp element. More than just blades, as well.

Now that it has been identified as an embarrassing problem, child labor under slave-like conditions, something has to be done. The problem of scarcity of cobalt remains an issue for batteries.

Edited by Ecocharger
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Just now, Ecocharger said:

Now that is has been identified as an embarrassing problem, child labor under slave-like conditions, something has to be done.

I would suggest immigration.

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(edited)

1 minute ago, turbguy said:

I would suggest immigration.

Immigration of whom to where? How does that resolve the problem of scarce cobalt?

Edited by Ecocharger
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1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

So here is an answer, about 600,000 vehicles available by 2026, just a drop in the bucket.

https://diystockpicker.com/ree-stock-vcvc-stock-analysis/

What we have here is a failure to communicate. REE (the company) is a bit player in the EV market. Some but not all of its platforms will use NCM batteries.  REEs (Rare Earth Elements) are a subset of the elements in the periodic table that does not include lithium or cobalt.

Tesla (a company that manufactures EVs) made 500,000 EVs in 2020. None of them use the REE (the company) platform. Most of them used NCMs, but some of them used LFPs.  It will make more than one million EVs this year, ans a larger percentage will use LFPs. The LFPs are made by CATL (a Chinese battery manufacturer).

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10 minutes ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

What we have here is a failure to communicate. REE (the company) is a bit player in the EV market. Some but not all of its platforms will use NCM batteries.  REEs (Rare Earth Elements) are a subset of the elements in the periodic table that does not include lithium or cobalt.

Tesla (a company that manufactures EVs) made 500,000 EVs in 2020. None of them use the REE (the company) platform. Most of them used NCMs, but some of them used LFPs.  It will make more than one million EVs this year, ans a larger percentage will use LFPs. The LFPs are made by CATL (a Chinese battery manufacturer).

So we are talking about a very small percentage of EV output, which does not move the marker for cobalt scarcity, it sounds like.

My engineer friend still insists that cobalt is a necessity to keep EV batteries from overheating and catching fire.  Someone is wrong here. Or perhaps you are referring to "low-end, low performance" EV's as a candidate for the cobalt-free battery. And pray that they do not overheat.

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(edited)

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

I would suggest immigration.

I understand that the subjects of this problem are not free to move anywhere, not to some other country, not to some other job.

It is literally a dead end type of work. It requires immediate rescue action.

A boycott of output from these cobalt sources.

Edited by Ecocharger
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18 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

So we are talking about a very small percentage of EV output, which does not move the marker for cobalt scarcity, it sounds like.

My engineer friend still insists that cobalt is a necessity to keep EV batteries from overheating and catching fire.  Someone is wrong here. Or perhaps you are referring to "low-end, low performance" EV's as a candidate for the cobalt-free battery. And pray that they do not overheat.

Please take a look at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

LFPs do not catch fire. NCMs do catch fire if their sophisticated charging systems fail. These fires are less frequent on a percentage basis than ICE car fires.  Yes, I am talking about "low-end-low performance", relative to high-end EVs. Some of them are still high-performance vehicles compared to mid-range ICE. the only performance difference is range, and the range is still quite good.  I do not need to pray for them to over-heat. Overheating is not a problem for LFP batteries.  I think you and perhaps your friend need to look at the broader battery picture and not just NCMs.

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23 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

I understand that the subjects of this problem are not free to move anywhere, not to some other country, not to some other job.

It is literally a dead end type of work. It requires immediate rescue action.

A boycott of output from these cobalt sources.

I will be impressed when the makers of specialty alloys and their customers (such as gas and steam turbine manufacturers) join with the greenies to insist on ethically-sourced materials.

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8 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Elsewhere we saw @turbguy saying he was never climbing a wind tower again. The newest ones are approaching 300 meter towers. How convenient do you think it will be to recycle those 4 tons of rare earth elements from those whirligigs up there? Chop them down like trees? (Never mind that the pylons are by far the strongest component).

Never heard of a helicopter?  If there are 4 tons of expensive material up there people will gladly recover it. 

How convenient is it to rip oil from deep below the earth?  Hint: not very.

 

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32 minutes ago, Symmetry said:

That's completely off-topic and childish.

Respect the POTUS. 

Why now? 

You never did before. 

Turnabout is fair play, you leftist sycophantic blockhead. 

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4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

I understand that the subjects of this problem are not free to move anywhere, not to some other country, not to some other job.

It is literally a dead end type of work. It requires immediate rescue action.

A boycott of output from these cobalt sources.

Who do you think would participate in the boycott, who would not?

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4 hours ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

What we have here is a failure to communicate. REE (the company) is a bit player in the EV market. Some but not all of its platforms will use NCM batteries.  REEs (Rare Earth Elements) are a subset of the elements in the periodic table that does not include lithium or cobalt.

Tesla (a company that manufactures EVs) made 500,000 EVs in 2020. None of them use the REE (the company) platform. Most of them used NCMs, but some of them used LFPs.  It will make more than one million EVs this year, ans a larger percentage will use LFPs. The LFPs are made by CATL (a Chinese battery manufacturer).

Dude, Alphabits is a cereal brand. If you're going to go full acronym soup on us, expect to have misunderstandings. Every time I say REE, I mean Rare Earth Elements. Those would include the lanthanide and actinide series. If you don't know what those are, look it up. Perhaps you'd care to go back thru your post and identify terms? 

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3 hours ago, Symmetry said:

That's completely off-topic and childish.

Respect the POTUS. 

The Eejit strikes again. Got ya covered there chump

 

F766949F-A6B0-4269-ADAB-26B59565BD47.jpeg

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(edited)

On 3/17/2021 at 5:16 PM, Ecocharger said:

Basic input materials for batteries are already seeing their prices run up at fast rates this past year, and that rate of increase will continue at an accelerating pace going forward. Reach for your wallet.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Three-Commodities-Set-To-Boom-As-The-Global-Economy-Recovers.html

What kind of sales would a practical and inexpensive EV obtain? Something that would compete with an ICE 3 cylinder like our Mitsubishi Mirage. They sell for about $15,000 and get around 40 mpg. We love ours but also drive a minivan and a large van. What price would they be in North America? Would we ever let the Chinese export them to us, they have plenty of such models?

Wuling

The current best-selling car in China is the Wuling HongGuang Mini EV, which costs an incredibly low $4,200. The Mini EV can only do 62mph and lasts a mere 124 miles on a single charge, but you might not need or want more in a suburban or urban environment. Wuling doesn’t appear to have any plans to sell the Mini EV outside of China, but it shows what kind of rock-bottom prices could be unleashed in Europe or the USA, even if higher safety regulations in those regions would push the cost up. If Wuling does release the Mini EV in Europe or the USA in 2021, it could be the cheapest EV around by a very large margin.

Edited by ronwagn
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5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Who do you think would participate in the boycott, who would not?

A boycott of a fungible commodity is a sick joke, because it is so easy to cheat anywhere along the supply chain. The biggest example of this of course is crude oil.   Look how "effective" the boycott of Iran has been.

Just because something is the morally correct thing to do does not suddenly make it possible: ask any Vietnam vet.

Probably the best way to get those kids out of those dogholes is to put pressure on the federal government of the Congo, and the best way to do that would be via pressure from all of the exporters, not just the cobalt exporters. the problem is that boycotts end up hurting the entire economy, including especially the bottom of the economic heap. Especially those kids and their families.

No, I don't have a solution. The only real solution would be jobs that pay a living wage, and I have no idea how to make that happen.

If by "participate" you mean companies that would refuse for use cobalt from the Congo, I think the greenies would try, but the only way to really not use Congolese cobalt is to not use cobalt at all. The battery guys are working hard on this. It's a lot harder to substitute for various metallic alloys and magnetic alloys for motors.

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16 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

The Eejit strikes again. Got ya covered there chump

 

F766949F-A6B0-4269-ADAB-26B59565BD47.jpeg

He just needs a husky bodyguard to help him get around. 

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