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18 hours ago, turbguy said:

Yeah, fiber optics have to be "regenerated" after some distance. I believe they do it all optically now, no?

I can only assume the power for regeneration is backed up with good UPS's.

I doubt it needs much power for that.  Probably around, 10-50 watts or so at each site?

Here is a good site if you want to enlighten the brain some. 

Single Mode vs. Multimode Fiber Optic Cables | Cleerline SSF Fiber (cleerlinefiber.com)

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On 2/15/2021 at 2:40 PM, Eyes Wide Open said:

Now just of a second here...i do believe underground pipelines are buried at a depth far below the frost line, actually it would take weeks of subzero temps to freeze any liquid buried 14" below the surface. OK i will ask what am i missing here? 

Since Ward suggested I look back about 50 pages , I have and found major blunders no one  here knows enough to recognize the blunder.   Here the problem is methyl hydrate.  I am there fore going to explain in English  instead of using Reynolds number or Shacham equations  or Panhandle A. Paper from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~shuman/NEXT/MATERIALS&COMPONENTS/Pressure_vessels/FM/compressible_pipe_flow.pdf  See Example 1.    Preventing formation of hydrate plugs Example 1: hydrate formation in a pipeline  https://petrowiki.spe.org/Preventing_formation_of_hydrate_plugs

Any one with certification in pipeline safety knows this one.   At operating pressures in the pipeline above 600 PSIG methyl hydrate will form at ISO.  This was the most common freeze off  in the fields since well pressures are 2000-6000psig and pipelines usually above 700-800psig.

Another freeze off is going through the well head.  PV drop is too great because  field hands did not reset  valves correctly for the temperature of the steel wellhead or did not insulate the Christmas tree. .   You have to maintain higher well head pressure to prevent  gas expansion lowering the temperature (PV=nrT)where you freeze the brine in the oil/gas mixture. see time mark  8:15 to 8:45 for video of the brine and hydrate from pipelines in  this storm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08mwXICY4JM  Practical engineering.

I will itemize Ward's blunders, but they are so many it maybe a couple of days to itemize them. Ward. Your failure to understand grid protection/relaying techniques needs no further discussion . Neither does his inability to read need any further comment. .

Edited by nsdp
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39 minutes ago, nsdp said:

Since Ward suggested I look back about 50 pages , I have and found major blunders no one  here knows enough to recognize the blunder.   Here the problem is methyl hydrate.  I am there fore going to explain in English  instead of using Reynolds number or Shacham equations  or Panhandle A. Paper from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~shuman/NEXT/MATERIALS&COMPONENTS/Pressure_vessels/FM/compressible_pipe_flow.pdf  See Example 1.    Preventing formation of hydrate plugs Example 1: hydrate formation in a pipeline  https://petrowiki.spe.org/Preventing_formation_of_hydrate_plugs

Any one with certification in pipeline safety knows this one.   At operating pressures in the pipeline above 600 PSIG methyl hydrate will form at ISO.  This was the most common freeze off  in the fields since well pressures are 2000-6000psig and pipelines usually above 700-800psig.

Another freeze off is going through the well head.  PV drop is too great because  field hands did not reset  valves correctly for the temperature of the steel wellhead or did not insulate the Christmas tree. .   You have to maintain higher well head pressure to prevent  gas expansion lowering the temperature (PV=nrT)where you freeze the brine in the oil/gas mixture. see time mark  8:15 to 8:45 for video of the brine and hydrate from pipelines in  this storm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08mwXICY4JM  Practical engineering.

I will itemize Ward's blunders, but they are so many it maybe a couple of days to itemize them. Ward. Your failure to understand grid protection/relaying techniques needs no further discussion . Neither does his inability to read need any further comment. .

Perhaps you might address Mr Wards error's, rather than my thoughts and or questions. That would be a rather basic foundation to build upon...just a thought carry on.

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2 hours ago, nsdp said:

Ward. Your failure to understand grid protection/relaying techniques needs no further discussion .

Yeah, when I first started working on the generation side, I was initially surprised at the number of protective relays on generation.  It took a couple years to understand them all (via osmosis, and a little C.P. Steinmetz).

Grid/distribution relaying was never my forte, but a lot of it is really serves quite similar purposes. Way to many diff eq's ("difficult equations") for transient analysis.

If grid frequency drops, either you increase generation, shed load, or both.  There are zero other options.

If your dispatchable stuff ain't there, off goes someone's lights. 

Edited by turbguy

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On 4/18/2021 at 10:32 AM, turbguy said:

Does your generator installation include an auto-transfer switch?

I'm on "ranch power", which tends to be less reliable as there are no backfeeds to employ in the distribution system.  I'm at the end of a loooong distribution branch/circuit.  If one stepdown transformer on my circuit branch has a "bad day", it trips the entire branch.  At least we can see the smoke in the distance.

When we call the REA operator to report an outage, she answers "We'll get right on it, as soon I find out who has the truck today".

PLANNED distribution outages (where the REA notifies you that power will be intentionally off for system maintenance) occur about once or twice a year.

13 KW Generac here (nat gas fired), at this altitude, it's derated to 9.5 KW (on a warm day).

I believe that is built into the Smart Module that comes with the generator.

 

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So the February royalty checks are both in and we get paid for liquids and residual gas.  The independent got $8/mcf for residual and XTO got $19.91/mcf for residual.  We made way more on gas than oil in February for all our wells.  I guess that the independent didn't get to sell as much at the high rate over the freeze as XTO did and thus had a lower average price for the month.

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1 hour ago, wrs said:

I believe that is built into the Smart Module that comes with the generator.

 

An auto-transfer switch normally is installed as part of the home's electrical system, used to protect against backfeeds into the grid.  It disconnects home circuits from the grid supply and switches those circuits to the generator, isolating those to "generator only".

These are multi-pole double throw purely mechanical contactors with an electromagnetic operator, typically within it's own metal enclosure.

Mine operates with a quite audible mechanical "clunk" when switching.  If you have something (smart module) connected to the generator only, it won't isolate circuits from the grid.  I would be surprised if it were solid state, too.

Edited by turbguy

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On 4/20/2021 at 10:50 PM, turbguy said:

Yeah, fiber optics have to be "regenerated" after some distance. I believe they do it all optically now, no?

I can only assume the power for regeneration is backed up with good UPS's.

I doubt it needs much power for that.  Probably around, 10-50 watts or so at each site?

No

No

Yes

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7 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

No

No

Yes

Thanx, not my forte'.

I had heard they were going optical-only (no intermediary electronics) about a decade ago, since it required less power and could handle multiple signal wavelength. Guess that's still lab-only.

I am surprised they don't use UPS's.  "The Grid Never Goes Down" is a falsehood.

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14 hours ago, nsdp said:

Since Ward suggested I look back about 50 pages , I have and found major blunders no one  here knows enough to recognize the blunder.   Here the problem is methyl hydrate.  I am there fore going to explain in English  instead of using Reynolds number or Shacham equations  or Panhandle A. Paper from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~shuman/NEXT/MATERIALS&COMPONENTS/Pressure_vessels/FM/compressible_pipe_flow.pdf  See Example 1.    Preventing formation of hydrate plugs Example 1: hydrate formation in a pipeline  https://petrowiki.spe.org/Preventing_formation_of_hydrate_plugs

Any one with certification in pipeline safety knows this one.   At operating pressures in the pipeline above 600 PSIG methyl hydrate will form at ISO.  This was the most common freeze off  in the fields since well pressures are 2000-6000psig and pipelines usually above 700-800psig.

Another freeze off is going through the well head.  PV drop is too great because  field hands did not reset  valves correctly for the temperature of the steel wellhead or did not insulate the Christmas tree. .   You have to maintain higher well head pressure to prevent  gas expansion lowering the temperature (PV=nrT)where you freeze the brine in the oil/gas mixture. see time mark  8:15 to 8:45 for video of the brine and hydrate from pipelines in  this storm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08mwXICY4JM  Practical engineering.

I will itemize Ward's blunders, but they are so many it maybe a couple of days to itemize them. Ward. Your failure to understand grid protection/relaying techniques needs no further discussion . Neither does his inability to read need any further comment. .

Doofus, go back to when I described clathrates and get back to me. Hint, a clathrate is the same thing as a hydrate, just the more proper scientific terminology. You like to pretend you've got the terminology down, seconds after reading a paper that uses it. I'm doing this on a mobile device with a small screen, I don't blog on my computer so I don't waste more time than I already do here. Therefore I'm disinclined to write long treatises on these subjects. I'm also disinclined to correct every mistake I see, but yours are egregious enough to warrant correction, because you pretend knowledge you don't have. I do believe you're a lawyer, with all the (dis)honor such a profession deserves. You and @Jay McKinsey should get a room. 

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3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Thanx, not my forte'.

I had heard they were going optical-only (no intermediary electronics) about a decade ago, since it required less power and could handle multiple signal wavelength. Guess that's still lab-only.

I am surprised they don't use UPS's.  "The Grid Never Goes Down" is a falsehood.

Optical "regeneration" involves doping the fiber then firing a laser at that doping (simplified explanation here, I know far more than I can or should describe, still being under multiple non disclosure agreements). One could "say" it's optical only but that laser gets powered how? 

I also worked on submarine systems, which bend every law of physics they can find to "manage" to get that signal across the ocean. The "grid" goes down all the time, the internet manages to stay up primarily because of BGP routing protocol. Sadly, while vendors will tell you they've run redundant fibers, they've run them in the same conduit. Once a fiber seeking backhoe finds one, it's found them all. 

Utilities run fiber inside their power lines, but it's the cheap stuff using LED lasers that need regen quite often, sometimes every mile. Low bandwidth compared to other fiber systems but high dispersion losses. 

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2 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Optical "regeneration" involves doping the fiber then firing a laser at that doping (simplified explanation here, I know far more than I can or should describe, still being under multiple non disclosure agreements). One could "say" it's optical only but that laser gets powered how?

I agree that optical regen could still require distributed power down the fiberline (stil gotta power lasers at regen sites). You gotta amplify and sharpen the signal pusles/phase back up and restore timing (damn you, jitter) after degradation. I thought interferometers, wave plates (and such) were involved in the 'magic.  Things evolve. Yup, not my forte'.

It gets powered from whatever is around, AC or DC. If there's no power, they lose.

Edited by turbguy
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4 hours ago, turbguy said:

I agree that optical regen could still require distributed power down the fiberline (stil gotta power lasers at regen sites). You gotta amplify and sharpen the signal pusles/phase back up and restore timing (damn you, jitter) after degradation. I thought interferometers, wave plates (and such) were involved in the 'magic.  Things evolve. Yup, not my forte'.

It gets powered from whatever is around, AC or DC. If there's no power, they lose.

Ward , you are forgetting that all critical paths in ERCOT are dual path and most all are parallel path. That means you have power from both ends of the transmission lines that connect the substation.  If one side goes down you still have at least a radial feed from the other side.   So unless a substation is an isolated tap (not loop tap, or loop or ring buss or a breaker and a half or double breaker scheme) you will still have power in the  substation  from the metering PT's from at least one circuit feeding the station to energize all of your fiber optic cable.  So every time you connect two substations you have power at both substations to energize your regen equipment.  If you have both lines down , then the substation has no power to worry about monitoring.

As for both cables being in the same conduit, where did you see that or is that BS again.  You may see it for local distribution  The NERC standards require the fiber optic for any transmission line(does not apply to the distribution circuit that goes from the substation to your house), outside the control room, be at least 25 ft from any other fiber optic cable and buried 6 ft below the surface.   If the surface is concrete or other impervious material then it has to be in a 2" conduit  with a green telecommunications tape overlaying the conduit as a warning for any one digging.   You have to mark and put up signs jut like you do for underground electric lines or  pipelines of any kind. There are older installations or backup fiber that is installed overhead on the same poles as the power lines.

Sounds like you don't know the difference between transmission/generation controls and relaying and distribution controls and relaying.

Edited by nsdp
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4 hours ago, nsdp said:

Ward , you are forgetting that all critical paths in ERCOT are dual path and most all are parallel path. That means you have power from both ends of the transmission lines that connect the substation.  If one side goes down you still have at least a radial feed from the other side.   So unless a substation is an isolated tap (not loop tap, or loop or ring buss or a breaker and a half or double breaker scheme) you will still have power in the  substation  from the metering PT's from at least one circuit feeding the station to energize all of your fiber optic cable.  So every time you connect two substations you have power at both substations to energize your regen equipment.  If you have both lines down , then the substation has no power to worry about monitoring.

As for both cables being in the same conduit, where did you see that or is that BS again.  You may see it for local distribution  The NERC standards require the fiber optic for any transmission line(does not apply to the distribution circuit that goes from the substation to your house), outside the control room, be at least 25 ft from any other fiber optic cable and buried 6 ft below the surface.   If the surface is concrete or other impervious material then it has to be in a 2" conduit  with a green telecommunications tape overlaying the conduit as a warning for any one digging.   You have to mark and put up signs jut like you do for underground electric lines or  pipelines of any kind. There are older installations or backup fiber that is installed overhead on the same poles as the power lines.

Sounds like you don't know the difference between transmission/generation controls and relaying and distribution controls and relaying.

Right and SONET was bullet proof because there were dual rings. What happened to SONET again? Let's see, just the big 3 vendors 20 years ago had annual sales over $200 billion. Today all SONET sales combined don't add up to $40 million. It just didn't work, kind of like your post. 

SCADA systems require loads of inputs and certainly the ability is there, except when it isn't. Pop quiz, what percentage of grid infrastructure is overhead versus underground? No utility is digging 6 foot deep holes to monitor overhead lines. I know how this is done, you've read about it. The CEO of the number one vendor in that industry is s friend of mine as are several of his employees. You're talking out your… hat let's say. 

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22 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Right and SONET was bullet proof because there were dual rings. What happened to SONET again? Let's see, just the big 3 vendors 20 years ago had annual sales over $200 billion. Today all SONET sales combined don't add up to $40 million. It just didn't work, kind of like your post. 

SCADA systems require loads of inputs and certainly the ability is there, except when it isn't. Pop quiz, what percentage of grid infrastructure is overhead versus underground? No utility is digging 6 foot deep holes to monitor overhead lines. I know how this is done, you've read about it. The CEO of the number one vendor in that industry is s friend of mine as are several of his employees. You're talking out your… hat let's say. 

Ward. I suggest you read the NERC standards, no SCADA for RTO or ISO use.  A utility may use it for local matters like distribution. .   Old  generation and   transmission installations have to be replaced.   There are two reasons why fiber optic cable at least 6 ft. underground.   If you drive along Tradewinds Road starting it Harrington Power Plant in Amarillo and go south along the 135 miles of fiber cable adjacent to the 230kv line that connects to Abernathy you will find  steel posts with orange signs  that say buried fiber optic cable every time they cross a road.  The fiber optic is buried for two reasons. 1. there are nuts on the wheel like Ward Smith driving on public roads and 2. to protect against EMP Pulse.   Protecting U.S. Electric Grid Communications from Electromagnetic Pulse https://www.resilientsocieties.org/uploads/5/4/0/0/54008795/protecting_us_electric_grid_communications_from_emp.pdf

and here is NASA's standard which has been adopted by NERC in 2013 https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/05/04/2020-09695/securing-the-united-states-bulk-power-system Guide to Mitigating Spacecraft Charging Effects ( I can get a signed copy for you from Hank he was my senior roommate in college) as an authoritative standard for preventing celestial disruption as experienced by Hydro Quebec in 1989 or if some one should do something like Star Fish PrimeGuide to Mitigating Spacecraft Charging Effects (nuclear weapons exploded at altitude as happened in Hawaii 's telecommunications and parts of the grid on Kauai and Oahu).   If you aren't already familiar with these two events with out looking them up  and also know what is called a Carrington Event you have absolutely no business posting anything about grid or powerplant control systems, installation, and protection.

FERC White Paper  announcing why we do this instead of using stupid ideas like your internet. https://www.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-05/ferc_executive_summary.pdf

I guarantee you don't know how it is done and meet  the current NERC standards. What happened to SONET is FERC has killed it because it failed in the 2003 Blackout blackout triggering extraneous outages in Maryland and Virginia  and  failed subsequent NIST testing for grid use. Phones can go out of service and no one dies.  Grids go out and people die. 111 died in Texas ice storm.  The grid does not quite use the "Manned Rated"  standard that NASA uses  but we are getting close.

Edited by nsdp

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On 4/23/2021 at 4:34 PM, nsdp said:

The fiber optic is buried for two reasons. 1. there are nuts on the wheel like Ward Smith driving on public roads and 2. to protect against EMP Pulse.

Why anyone driving on public roads is a problem is unexplained by you but let's all laugh at your second point. An EMP pulse does nothing to the fiber. At. All. Electromagnetic signals of all kinds can be immediately adjacent to fiber, this is why they put it right inside the high voltage wires. Now, do I believe bunglecrats like your butt buddy roommate don't understand simple physics but create onerous regulations based on their ignorance? Why yes, yes I do. 

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(edited)

This might be "done", but the complaints over high pricing during an emergency continues.

Somebody's gonna pay.  The Texas Governor seems to be a target.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/All-night-ERCOT-meeting-raises-questions-about-16124189.php

The Rural Electrification Agency was created to provide electric power to rural America, including much of Texas. Rural electric coops were responsive to their consumer-owners. Now, Texas electricity providers are investor owned.

This is where Texas is with electric power.

Sadly, the next great catastrophe waiting to happen might be in food. Farms are no longer family-owned, they are corporate owned. We can expect food prices to rise as a call for returns on investment.

Be careful what you ask for when you call for an end to Big Government and deregulation. We've just had a taste of how Big Corporations might treat us.

Edited by turbguy

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After the Texas Blackouts, Follow the Wind and Solar Money – All $66 Billion of It

To make the tax-related math easier, let’s round that figure up to $250 million per year. Doing so – and a bit of elementary computation – shows that the oil and gas sector’s annual tax contributions to the state of Texas are roughly 54 times as great as what is contributed by the wind and solar sectors.

Despite this enormous disparity in tax revenue – and the fact that the wind and solar industries spent $66 billion building generation capacity in Texas – we have been repeatedly told that wind and solar weren’t to blame for the blackouts. Why? Because they were “expected to make up only a fraction” of what the state needed during the winter.

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2021/04/26/after_the_texas_blackouts_follow_the_wind_and_solar_money__all_66_billion_of_it_774468.html

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(edited)

From yesterday:

An updated analysis of February’s Texas power crisis by experts at the Electric Reliability Council of Texas shows that lost wind power generation was a small component of the huge losses in electric generation that plunged much of the state into darkness during the severe cold weather.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/04/28/texas-power-outage-wind/

Duh!  I saw that easily...

To add insult to injury..

Natural gas fuel and transportation companies have recently posted huge profits in the aftermath of the Texas power crisis. Kinder Morgan, one of Texas’ largest pipeline companies, posted a more than $1 billion profit in the first quarter due to the power crisis, a result of voluntarily cutting power back and selling gas at inflated prices.

Edited by turbguy
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2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Sounds like a shill for oil and gas who needs Grey's anatomy and a geology text and a map to go to the bathroom. He probably doesn't know who Michael  Faraday or Hendrick Lorentz or James Clerk Maxwell were or much less use their equations to find out how stupid he is.  He makes a fence post look like a genius.

"Both the heat-driven August 2020 electricity shortage in California, and the cold-driven February 2021 shortage in Texas, were caused in large part by over-reliance, not under-reliance, on weather-dependent renewables like solar panels and wind turbines. As demonstrated by the temporary freeze-up of even nuclear and fossil-fueled power plants during the Texas coldsnap, what the grid needs more reliable baseload generation — not more intermittant supplies. Without infeasibly massive investments in battery storage and other load smoothing technologies, Federal policies that force states to become more reliant on renewables will only increase the probability and frequency of blackouts. "

California has a problem created by Gov. Pete Wilson(R) and his CPUC and compounded by Gov. Moon Beam and Chairman Picker's do nothing attitude. It is under investment in the core grid. Parallel path problems constrain core transmission circuits to less than full capacity making it impossible to transfer power from one part of the state to another. NRG Sutter(ne of Sacramento) had to send power to Nevada to get it back to SCE or SDGE in southern Ca.  I worked with two IRS criminal agents from 2002-2003 tracking though the trades and manipulation of grid capacity of Enron, Dynergy and RRI's  that  were games with California electricity prices. We got 41 employees indicted and Convicted. My work was good enough that I was named  the NERC representative on the committee that prepared the WECC Constraints and Needs Report for five years. https://www.wecc.org/Reliability/2014PSA_draft.pdf

There is still plenty of generation in California and more than sufficient import capacity on Path 15 and 65 from the Columbia River, on Path 27 from Utah with 150,000 mwh of storage  https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitsubishiheavyindustries/2020/03/13/in-utah-hydrogen-and-a-massive-salt-dome-are-winning-the-west-for-renewable-energy/?sh=47cb51875c5 . More than adequate transmission from Glen Canyon and Hoover Dams over lines from closed coal plants to replace battery storage for peaking and base load from Palo Verde and Hassayampa to Devers .  This guy makes a fence post look like a genius. He also needs to read the operating plan for the Bureau of Reclamation for the Colorado River.  The problem is political, Pete Wilson and Gov. Moon Beam not engineering or operational.

I think turboguy's link to the Texas Tribune is enough to tell you how laughable his claims about Texas are. I wonder if the governor and the PUCT are smart enough to know that the method of price setting the PUCT used is a criminal violation of A. Lincoln's False Claims Act and each hour and each service to US government facilites is a new criminal charge. Oh the irony. A Republican President's law sending the Republican state of Texas government to federal prison for over charging under federal contracts.

Edited by nsdp
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(edited)

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

A great opinion piece. I found it realistic.

 

It sounds good unless you know the physics behind each grid and what he is saying.  California is a poorly designed core grid with parallel path issues. Texas' problem was complacency and incompetence in the industries and at the PUCT and ERCOT.   A water intake from two condensers' cooling lake freezing off on a nuclear plant!!!?  That is as stupid as the Macando blowout.   He just repeats the culprits shifting their share of the blame.

Edited by nsdp
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2 hours ago, nsdp said:

frequency of blackouts. "

California has a problem created by....

There is still plenty of generation in California and more than sufficient import capacity on Path 15 and 65 from the Columbia River, on Path 27 from Utah with 150,000 mwh of storage  https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitsubishiheavyindustries/2020/03/13/in-utah-hydrogen-and-a-massive-salt-dome-are-winning-the-west-for-renewable-energy/?sh=47cb51875c5 . More than adequate transmission from Glen Canyon and Hoover Dams over lines from closed coal plants to replace battery storage for peaking and base load from Palo Verde and Hassayampa to Devers .  This guy makes a fence post look like a genius. He also needs to read the operating plan for the Bureau of Reclamation for the Colorado River.  The problem is political, Pete Wilson and Gov. Moon Beam not engineering or operational.

 

Right, because the PNW doesn't already use 100% of the Hydro up there nor does Phoenix/Salt Lake/Sin City already use 100% of the Colorado for power...   Exactly ZERO hydro power goes to California other than a spring melt flood down the Columbia River if the PNW has mild temperatures and it is night time while CA is hot for about ~ 1 month a year in late May early June.  Honestly at this point both those giant powerlines to CALifornia may as well not exist other than the assholes in CA refusing to burn coal in their own state and instead burn it in Arizona... Lying Hypocrites. 

Now you could argue that CALIFORNIA should PAY to develop more Pumped Hydro Storage on the Columbia River, but here the PNW would gobble all that power up unless you ~doubled the Hydro Power Capacity because that is what will be required just for the SHORT term before you add in population increase and here the PNW/West population is massively increasing. 

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