.

[NickW + 2,714]

8 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Pumped hydro typical returns with about 80% (+/-) efficiency, although it takes CONSIDERABLY longer to implement ancillary services than with batteries. It really can be quite profitable when you "buy low and sell high" every day...

zero to full output (1860MW) on Dinorwic (UK's biggest) pump storage unit is under 2 minutes. 

[turbguy + 1,391]

4 minutes ago, NickW said:

zero to full output (1860MW) on Dinorwic (UK's biggest) pump storage unit is under 2 minutes. 

Generating, yes.  Pumping, not quite so fast.   Batteries provide ancillary services in milliseconds (if not microseconds).  The grid can typically survive for several minutes of severe distress, until you need it RIGHT NOW! Else all generation trips offline, and you have a little problem on your hands.

Edited February 16, 2021 by turbguy

[NickW + 2,714]

Just now, turbguy said:

Generating, yes.  Pumping, not quite so fast.   Batteries provide ancillary services in milliseconds (if not microseconds).  The grid can typically survive for several minutes of severe distress, until you need it RIGHT NOW!

I agree - batteries are unsurpassed in terms of supporting grid frequency and providing very short duration power back up to bridge that gap between the fall off in frequency and the pump storage / OCGT / Stationary gensets to kick in to meet the shortfall. 

Another advantage of batteries is they are modular so can be distributed around the grid to provide support. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

If you want to protect against rolling power cuts in all circumstances you need a sounded back up network whatever the fuel source. If your system is maxed out whether it be coal, gas, oil or nuclear if there is a trip in the transmission connection then someone is getting a blackout somewhere. If a Nuc trips out and shuts down you are looking at 10-14 days to get that back on line. 

I don't know how US utilities manage this. In the UK many large users are on part interruptible supplies which means they can be disconnected for short periods (large cold stores, centralised air con, some industrial processes). Also large numbers of emergency generators with companies / hospitals  can be fired up automatically to take the strain off the grid (they get a capacity payment for this). The diesel needs to be cycled through any way so might as well be used in this fashion and get a payment for it. This helps deal with the initial shortfall and provide back up power for  several hours / couple of days in regard to the generators. 

Like you I have major doubt about batteries although I see merit in repurposing redundant EV batteries for storage and grid stabilisation where they still have plenty of capacity. 

For grid storage there are some interesting developments. Saw this the other day using a fluid weighing 2.5x that of water 

Introduction (rheenergise.com)

 

I disagree, on almost all points. 

If you want to protect against rolling power cuts in all circumstances you need proper capacity, with a growth plan, a proper grid that can interconnect across the network, and a good maintenance plan.  Texas gets hot.  Texas occasionally gets cold, really cold, freezing in fact.  But the bottom line is power supply, not the weather.  If they are doing their jobs at the utilities there will be enough to handle a freakin 2 or 3 day POWER DRAW, no matter what the cause.  We are not the third world.

And I wondered how long it would take you to get to generators.  Generators in individual businesses and, increasingly, individual homes shows nothing less than a NO CONFIDENCE VOTE in the utility company, whether private or municipal.  That means they didn't/don't adhere to the basic principles of my first paragraph.  

This is electricity; it is not new nor is it rocket science.  But it must be handled professionally, by professionals; not bureaucrats or CEOs with bonuses tied to share prices that makes shareholders in far away places happy when they get a larger dividend check.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, turbguy said:

I don't believe ERCOT system operators are getting any deserved rest. It appears some transmission lines have been forced out due to icing conditions.  The entire system is literally "hanging by a thread".

At least, a system collapse won't propagate into neighboring states.

 

What does "some transmission lines have been forced out due to icing conditions" mean?  Ice formation on power lines to the magnitude that it can bring down power lines comes from precipitation followed by or mixed with freezing temperatures.  I have not heard of this cold snap being preceded by or being accompanied by rain.  Anyone else?

"Transmission lines have been forced out due to icing conditions" is bureaucratic and/or corporate bullshxx, plain and simple.

[NickW + 2,714]

Just now, Dan Warnick said:

I disagree, on almost all points. 

If you want to protect against rolling power cuts in all circumstances you need proper capacity, with a growth plan, a proper grid that can interconnect across the network, and a good maintenance plan.  Texas gets hot.  Texas occasionally gets cold, really cold, freezing in fact.  But the bottom line is power supply, not the weather.  If they are doing their jobs at the utilities there will be enough to handle a freakin 2 or 3 day POWER DRAW, no matter what the cause.  We are not the third world.

And I wondered how long it would take you to get to generators.  Generators in individual businesses and, increasingly, individual homes shows nothing less than a NO CONFIDENCE VOTE in the utility company, whether private or municipal.  That means they didn't/don't adhere to the basic principles of my first paragraph.  

This is electricity; it is not new nor is it rocket science.  But it must be handled professionally, by professionals; not bureaucrats or CEOs with bonuses tied to share prices that makes shareholders in far away places happy when they get a larger dividend check.

You can disagree but at the end of the day its the USA with the f**ked transmission network and utility system not Europe which is more heavily invested in renewables than the USA. 

My second paragraph highlights how NG manages the UK network and utilises in place generating plant to support. Again we have had a long extensive cold spell including storms. No region wide power cuts and no capacity constraints in the UK or Europe (as far as I am aware). 

Utilising existing generating capacity is an intelligent use of technology and resources. 

• It saves the transmission network investing in gen sets that sit there most of the time doing nothing
• It offsets the cost for the owners because they get a capacity payment and a payment if called upon. 
• Win win for both parties. 

[turbguy + 1,391]

3 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

I disagree, on almost all points. 

If you want to protect against rolling power cuts in all circumstances you need proper capacity, with a growth plan, a proper grid that can interconnect across the network, and a good maintenance plan.  Texas gets hot.  Texas occasionally gets cold, really cold, freezing in fact.  But the bottom line is power supply, not the weather.  If they are doing their jobs at the utilities there will be enough to handle a freakin 2 or 3 day POWER DRAW, no matter what the cause.  We are not the third world.

And I wondered how long it would take you to get to generators.  Generators in individual businesses and, increasingly, individual homes shows nothing less than a NO CONFIDENCE VOTE in the utility company, whether private or municipal.  That means they didn't/don't adhere to the basic principles of my first paragraph.  

This is electricity; it is not new nor is it rocket science.  But it must be handled professionally, by professionals; not bureaucrats or CEOs with bonuses tied to share prices that makes shareholders in far away places happy when they get a larger dividend check.

Do you build for the max, or for the "almost max"?  Do you build facilities that are called into service once a decade, once a year?  That's an economic and policy decision.   ERCOT's POLITICAL decision to rely primarily on internal resources (not counting DC ties) limits it's ability to import from other balancing authorities.   Even then, a generator that has never experienced a weather event like the current one will have unique and unexpected issues arise that may either derate them, or force them off.

 

[turbguy + 1,391]

4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

What does "some transmission lines have been forced out due to icing conditions" mean?  Ice formation on power lines to the magnitude that it can bring down power lines comes from precipitation followed by or mixed with freezing temperatures.  I have not heard of this cold snap being preceded by or being accompanied by rain.  Anyone else?

"Transmission lines have been forced out due to icing conditions" is bureaucratic and/or corporate bullshxx, plain and simple.

From their operations log:

Feb 14 2021 17:19:45 CST

Watch for the freezing precipitation event which has caused multiple forced Transmission outages across the ERCOT Region.

Edited February 16, 2021 by turbguy

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

Whats a double wide? 

You'll have to excuse my ignorance of US housing terminology

[turbguy + 1,391]

8 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

I think I've met him!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

Well if the US govt / states are permitting garden sheds to be used as residential accommodation then that is a political problem. 

Its not a left / right wing issue - its a basic one of human decency and empathy in whats considered to be a wealthy and prosperous nation. 

I believe the thread is about power outages.  Your ideas hold merit and the U.S. has had many programs to insulate homes, but again, that's not the question here.

I go back to my earlier comment about executive bonuses and shareholder value, as it is called.  There is only so much share price increase, or shareholder value, you can wring out of a normally expanding electricity network.  But our bonus driven executives have come up with a solution that greatly increases shareholder value: replace the system with a completely different one, whether it's truly needed or not.  Simply jump on the bandwagon and get the instant support of the so-called green movement, and, bonus, they'll lobby the bureaucracy for you!  Brilliant!

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

18 minutes ago, NickW said:

You can disagree but at the end of the day its the USA with the f**ked transmission network and utility system not Europe which is more heavily invested in renewables than the USA. 

My second paragraph highlights how NG manages the UK network and utilises in place generating plant to support. Again we have had a long extensive cold spell including storms. No region wide power cuts and no capacity constraints in the UK or Europe (as far as I am aware). 

Utilising existing generating capacity is an intelligent use of technology and resources. 

• It saves the transmission network investing in gen sets that sit there most of the time doing nothing
• It offsets the cost for the owners because they get a capacity payment and a payment if called upon. 
• Win win for both parties. 

Perhaps you need a break in this energy power generation/ distribution debate. Until green energy came on line there were no major issues.

Now what is it about green energy that causes so many disruptions? There is quite a wise man on this forum who stated things quite well, said simply Americas middle aged leaders defy any type of rational thinking.

To implement a type power transmission that is incompatible with existing tech is beyond comprehension. The solution is simple, take the keys to the car away. They have proven there inability or better said lack of responsibility. I can think of know better time than now, as to the EU....as we speak the EU is looking for somebody/ anybody to bail them out. 

Do you ever wonder the what price will be for China's welfare? It is what it is.. or what it will be, and to think of all the money the US has wasted on their security... all over green energy?

I'd suggest maybe taking the keys away, until the leaders find responsibility again.Hint watch the US it is about to happen once again.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

29 minutes ago, NickW said:

You can disagree but at the end of the day its the USA with the f**ked transmission network and utility system not Europe which is more heavily invested in renewables than the USA. 

My second paragraph highlights how NG manages the UK network and utilises in place generating plant to support. Again we have had a long extensive cold spell including storms. No region wide power cuts and no capacity constraints in the UK or Europe (as far as I am aware). 

Utilising existing generating capacity is an intelligent use of technology and resources. 

• It saves the transmission network investing in gen sets that sit there most of the time doing nothing
• It offsets the cost for the owners because they get a capacity payment and a payment if called upon. 
• Win win for both parties. 

My entire argument is that this is brought on by bad management, or at least management where profit motive overrides the consumer's best interest.  As I said earlier, I don't think anyone is against harnessing wind and solar, but it must be managed, and be affordable.  Otherwise it doesn't matter if you have a nuclear powerplant or a windmill for every 10 square miles.  Yes, Texas appears to have largely failed more broadly than the U.K. when it comes to power management, but the scale, legal systems, and presumably profit management regulations between the countries are also obviously quite different.  But that IS NO EXCUSE.  Texas should be doing better and they should be embarrassed to the point of fixing it.

As for raw dollars/pounds/euros invested, they matter little IF they are improperly managed.  If the U.K. has done a good job managing their power needs, I salute them.  Texas obviously has not.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

29 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I think I've met him!

The Trailer Park Boys series.  It ran for years up in Canada and at least the premise is based on trailer park living in Nova Scotia.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+trailer+park+boys&pws=0&gl=us&gws_rd=cr

 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Perhaps you need a break in this energy power generation/ distribution debate. Until green energy came on line there were no major issues.Now what is it about green energy that causes so many disruptions?

How much wind and solar was the USA using in 1965?

Northeast blackout of 1965 - Wikipedia

or 1977

New York City blackout of 1977 - Wikipedia

0r even 2003 (compared to 2021) 

Northeast blackout of 2003 - Wikipedia

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

This didn't age well

 

[NickW + 2,714]

13 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Perhaps you need a break in this energy power generation/ distribution debate. Until green energy came on line there were no major issues.

Now what is it about green energy that causes so many disruptions? There is quite a wise man on this forum who stated things quite well, said simply Americas middle aged leaders defy any type of rational thinking.

To implement a type power transmission that is incompatible with existing tech is beyond comprehension. The solution is simple, take the keys to the car away. They have proven there inability or better said lack of responsibility. I can think of know better time than now, as to the EU....as we speak the EU is looking for somebody/ anybody to bail them out. 

Do you ever wonder the what price will be for China's welfare? It is what it is.. or what it will be, and to think of all the money the US has wasted on their security... all over green energy?

I'd suggest maybe taking the keys away, until the leaders find responsibility again.Hint watch the US it is about to happen once again.

The approach I quoted is hardly cutting edge science. The gen sets obviously need to be able to sychronise with the grid. When needed, invariably based on a sharp drop in frequency an electronic signal from the transmission operator sends a message to fire up.

In the case of large plant that can disconnect the shut down takes that demand off the grid. 

[Roch + 537]

4 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

This didn't age well

 

 

No Power = no cell towers, no traffic lights , no heat , no nothing.

How many people died because of lack of power in Texas.

Houston mother and daughter die from family trying to heat up by running car in a garage

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2021/02/16/texas-mother-daughter-die-after-heating-home-with-car/ 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Roch

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

On 2/15/2021 at 3:46 PM, NickW said:

Except the greenhouse effect is a factor influencing the variability of the polar vortex. 

Doesn't matter....cold is cold, and hot is hot. World temperature goes down when it gets cold, world temperature goes up when it gets hot. This is not rocket science, but "climate" science. We are in the beginning of a cooling phase, well predicted by some recent climate models. You may have noticed that we are having a cold winter, this is not just a one-week wonder. The trend now is for cooler earth temperatures, responding to factors not related to atmospheric CO2. Sorry to spoil the new President's agenda celebration.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

2 hours ago, turbguy said:

Pumped hydro typical returns with about 80% (+/-) efficiency, although it takes CONSIDERABLY longer to implement ancillary services than with batteries. It really can be quite profitable when you "buy low and sell high" every day...

This is for energy storage as an alternative for lithium battery, so I assume there is no lithium battery in the process of storing energy. I am curious about the efficiency of solar or wind energy to pump hydro x2.5 density up there. 

Traditionally in large scale we have sun, wind and hydro dam, I wonder how this work in small scale with high density hydro.

Edited February 16, 2021 by SUZNV

[NickW + 2,714]

47 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Doesn't matter....cold is cold, and hot is hot. World temperature goes down when it gets cold, world temperature goes up when it gets hot. This is not rocket science, but "climate" science. We are in the beginning of a cooling phase, well predicted by some recent climate models. You may have noticed that we are having a cold winter, this is not just a one-week wonder. The trend now is for cooler earth temperatures, responding to factors not related to atmospheric CO2. Sorry to spoil the new President's agenda celebration.

The Earth won't cool down. The rate of global warming will be moderately slower for the next 2-3 years* during this 'cooler phase' before reaching peak again in 5-6 years. 

2010 was a particularly cold winter which coincides with the 11 year cycle solar cycle. 

* No doubt the heralds of the next ice age on here will be singing we all gonna freeze😀

Edited February 16, 2021 by NickW

[turbguy + 1,391]

12 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

This is for energy storage as an alternative for lithium battery, so I assume there is no lithium battery in the process of storing energy. I am curious about the efficiency of solar or wind energy to pump hydro x2.5 density up there. 

The round-trip for a denser fluid might be slightly more efficient, but not by much.  Hopefully the reservoirs are reasonably liquid-tight.  You are going to require higher compressed air pressure to evacuate the pump/turbine for pumping mode (or some other method).

Then there were the Rankine cycles that used mercury as the working fluid back in the 1930's I beleive.  Those were really "compact", but the leakage was expensive (and hazardous to O&M).

Edited February 16, 2021 by turbguy

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

I think I've met him!

Its Dans selfie😛

[NickW + 2,714]

6 minutes ago, turbguy said:

The round-trip for a denser fluid might be slightly more efficient, but not by much.  Hopefully the reservoirs are reasonably liquid-tight.

Then there were the Rankine cycles that used mercury as the working fluid back in the 1930's I beleive.  Those were really "compact", but the leakage was expensive (and hazardous to O&M).

In terms of the pump storage you get 2.5x the energy out for the same volume

mass (Kg)  x head (metres) x 9.8 (gravity) x  conversion efficiency (typical 0.9)*

* 0.9 on the pump up the hill.  

This assumes there are any additional friction losses from the denser fluid. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by NickW

[SUZNV + 1,197]

16 minutes ago, turbguy said:

The round-trip for a denser fluid might be slightly more efficient, but not by much.  Hopefully the reservoirs are reasonably liquid-tight.

Then there were the Rankine cycles that used mercury as the working fluid back in the 1930's I beleive.  Those were really "compact", but the leakage was expensive (and hazardous to O&M).

I cannot imagine how sun and wind can pump this efficiently (in term of  law of conservation of energy and horse power, I am bad in energy terminology). Wind Mill pump seems the most direct energy converting. Can a wind mill do that in windy place like Scotland?

Edited February 16, 2021 by SUZNV