.

[SUZNV + 1,197]

In place that crowded and the price of the houses are high, or where the electricity price is high, then investing in insulation make sense.

In Texas such as Houston the house price and electricity price is quite cheap and so the insulation cost especially double glazing windows may not worth the investment (the windows will need to change every 15 years anyway). 

In cities that houses are expensive then the one who could afford them will not worry about electricity bills  or why should landlords need to worry about tenants energy bill. 

US electricity price is 11 cent per kilowatt-hour while in the EU it is about 26 cent kwh and US people are living more spreading out even in metropolitans. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by SUZNV

[ronwagn + 6,290]

11 hours ago, NickW said:

The point here is how much do you spend to insure against 1 in 10/100/1000 year events? 

Do you double the cost of your networks to prevent 1 day blackout in 10 years? 

 

You do what you have to do to save lives in very cold areas or very hot areas with a concentration of vulnerable people like those who died in a very hot summer in NYC years ago. It may involve education in how to use various methods to keep cool or places to shelter. It could involve cooling or warming areas in highly populated areas. Telling people how to cool down in a tub or with wet towels, warm up with heating pads. Senile people often forget to do sensible things that could save their lives. 

Community calling checkups on vulnerable people. Emergency numbers for people to call. Large heaters or air conditioners to heat or cool available indoor spaces. Emergency generator and water trucks. 

Distributed energy and localized energy should be big topics discussed rationally as just as important as any other topic having to do with catastrophes of all kinds from weather to war. Our military has a lot of personnel and equipment that can be used in civilian catastrophes and it is good real world training for them.  

We should also be planning for a electro-magnetic pulse attack. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/09/03/dhs-combats-potential-electromagnetic-pulse-emp-attack

[El Nikko + 2,145]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

The Earth won't cool down. The rate of global warming will be moderately slower for the next 2-3 years* during this 'cooler phase' before reaching peak again in 5-6 years. 

2010 was a particularly cold winter which coincides with the 11 year cycle solar cycle. 

* No doubt the heralds of the next ice age on here will be singing we all gonna freeze😀

Nobody can predict that and it is idiotic to try to predict such tiny time frames on a planet that is 4.6 billion years old and has many different cycles some competing with each other.

There is also the glaring problem that if you or I get to pick our own starting point from where we compare temperatures the outcome will be completely different. 

Warm temperatures have always created explosions in life, cold has the opposite effect.

Why not read a few geology books

Edited February 16, 2021 by El Nikko

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

The approach I quoted is hardly cutting edge science. The gen sets obviously need to be able to sychronise with the grid. When needed, invariably based on a sharp drop in frequency an electronic signal from the transmission operator sends a message to fire up.

In the case of large plant that can disconnect the shut down takes that demand off the grid. 

Gen sets need to be able to stabilize the grid? One would assume the below is the subject of your focus.

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/baseload/grid-inertia-why-it-matters-in-a-renewable-world/#gref

[NickW + 2,714]

5 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

Nobody can predict that and it is idiotic to try to predict such tiny time frames on a planet that is 4.6 billion years old and has many different cycles some competing with each other.

There is also the glaring problem that if you or I get to pick our own starting point from where we compare temperatures the outcome will be completely different. 

Warm temperatures have always created explosions in life, cold has the opposite effect.

Why not read a few geology books

😀😀

Nothing to do with Geology. its an astronomical feature that is well studied and understood to impact climate on an 11 year cycle

An appropriate link to help with this

What Is the Solar Cycle? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

or for the grown ups

solar cycle | Definition, Length, & Facts | Britannica

NASA reveals how Solar Cycle 25 will impact lives and technology on Earth (inverse.com)

[NickW + 2,714]

6 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Gen sets need to be able to stabilize the grid? One would assume the below is the subject of your focus.

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/baseload/grid-inertia-why-it-matters-in-a-renewable-world/#gref

Whats the system operators response to falling frequency? 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

You are an educated idiot obviously. Many tens of thousands can't afford a "Newer House with decent insulation". They live in Trailer parks or Mobile Home estates from the 80's. Many here in Ft. Stockton live in very old plastered "stucco" houses. My guess is 100+ lost their lives due to the cold and crappy power grid. Still no power here, and not expected till tonight. 

A lot of those fifties and sixties stucco homes had very little insulation in California, but nobody was going to freeze to death. They were tar paper covered with chicken wire, stucco, and paint. Now they sell for half a million dollars. Hopefully they have had an insulation upgrade. 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Just now, NickW said:

😀😀

Nothing to do with Geology. its an astronomical feature that is well studied and understood to impact climate on an 11 year cycle

An appropriate link to help with this

What Is the Solar Cycle? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

or for the grown ups

solar cycle | Definition, Length, & Facts | Britannica

NASA reveals how Solar Cycle 25 will impact lives and technology on Earth (inverse.com)

You haven't a clue about what you are talking about, that isn't the only cycle that affects the Earth and short term ones like solar activity make little change in the grand scheme of things especially not to things we can study in the geological record.

but I will tell you for a fact nothing we can do will stop the Earth from coming out of an Ice age, which we are and nothing will stop temperatures from rising gradually over 10s of thousands of years.

I'm all for preserving the environment and preventing actual pollution but CO2 isn't a particular threat compared to many other problems we face and there are plenty that affect health and the local ecosystems. 

Anyway I won't hold you up from your in depth reading of the Guardian or Britannica any longer 

25 years of slightly warmer weather sounds lovely to me and I will refrain from selling my house by the sea just yet...cheers

 

 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

7 minutes ago, NickW said:

Whats the system operators response to falling frequency? 

 Odd did someone miss this?

What’s the big deal? A surge of renewables onto a grid without sufficient rotating mass could cause serious problems: power being cut in certain areas in an effort to bring demand back in line with supply; and large power plants getting disconnected from the grid to prevent them becoming overloaded.

The key to understanding this is frequency i.e. the speed of the grid. Some parts of the world such as the U.S. operate at a frequency of 60 Hz. Other parts operate at 50 Hz. Taking a simplified view of things, this is a measure of how fast electrons are moving along an alternating current wire. 60 times a second (60 Hz) or fifty times a second (50 Hz) is the frequency of the grid. If it rises too much above or below that, trouble results.

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, El Nikko said:

You haven't a clue about what you are talking about, that isn't the only cycle that affects the Earth and short term ones like solar activity make little change in the grand scheme of things especially not to things we can study in the geological record.

but I will tell you for a fact nothing we can do will stop the Earth from coming out of an Ice age, which we are and nothing will stop temperatures from rising gradually over 10s of thousands of years.

I'm all for preserving the environment and preventing actual pollution but CO2 isn't a particular threat compared to many other problems we face and there are plenty that affect health and the local ecosystems. 

Anyway I won't hold you up from your in depth reading of the Guardian or Britannica any longer 

25 years of slightly warmer weather sounds lovely to me and I will refrain from selling my house by the sea just yet...cheers

 

 

🤣🤡

Nice try - introduce a load of stuff  competely irrelevant to the point. This issue starts from someone making a  point about going into a 'cooling cycle'. We are  which is 11 years (yes I know there are other much longer cycles) 

We are heading into the solar minimum in this short cycle and in about 6 years we will be at the solar maximum. 

The final point on this is this cycle is completely irrelevant to the GW debate. 

[NickW + 2,714]

5 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 Odd did someone miss this?

What’s the big deal? A surge of renewables onto a grid without sufficient rotating mass could cause serious problems: power being cut in certain areas in an effort to bring demand back in line with supply; and large power plants getting disconnected from the grid to prevent them becoming overloaded.

The key to understanding this is frequency i.e. the speed of the grid. Some parts of the world such as the U.S. operate at a frequency of 60 Hz. Other parts operate at 50 Hz. Taking a simplified view of things, this is a measure of how fast electrons are moving along an alternating current wire. 60 times a second (60 Hz) or fifty times a second (50 Hz) is the frequency of the grid. If it rises too much above or below that, trouble results.

I am aware of the issues around the having enough grid inertia to deal with frequency drops

I'll ask again

Whats the grid operators response to a sustained fall in frequency? 

Edited February 16, 2021 by NickW

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

3 minutes ago, NickW said:

🤣🤡

Nice try - introduce a load of stuff  competely irrelevant to the point. This issue starts from someone making a  point about going into a 'cooling cycle'. We are  which is 11 years (yes I know there are other much longer cycles) 

We are heading into the solar minimum in this short cycle and in about 6 years we will be at the solar maximum. 

The final point on this is this cycle is completely irrelevant to the GW debate. 

ahh speaking of load stuff shall we continue?

You can also get a domino effect. If frequency goes out of control, one part of the system has to shut down. This causes severe strain on the rest of the network. If not dealt with, cascading outages lead to a major blackout such as that experienced in the Northeast of the U.S. in 2003. 60 million people ended up without electricity. In the summer of 2019, major blackouts in New York City and the U.K. further emphasize the need for greater grid resilience.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

6 minutes ago, NickW said:

I am aware of the issues around the having enough grid inertia to deal with frequency drops

I'll ask again

Whats the grid operators response to a sustained fall in frequency? 

Plenty of time for Grid Operators...lmao Whoa did i mean to say the grift operator's?

Edited February 16, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[turbguy + 1,391]

1 hour ago, SUZNV said:

I cannot imagine how sun and wind can pump this efficiently (in term of  law of conservation of energy and horse power, I am bad in energy terminology). Wind Mill pump seems the most direct energy converting. Can a wind mill do that in windy place like Scotland?

The pumped storage efficincy is simply input v output. Who cares where you get the "juice" from for pump-mode?  In my experience, it was time shifting Nuc power, then "selling water" on the way out.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

Well now not only can this green grid not produce when needed, the grid gets a raise. Only if California...err Texas is the gene pool this enlightened...

ERCOT to raise Texas energy prices, blaming high demand from winter storm

Your bills, that will already be higher because of the bitter cold, will stay that way beyond winter.

"Energy prices should reflect scarcity of the supply. If customer load is being shed, scarcity is at its maximum, and the market price for the energy needed to serve that load should also be at its highest,” the order said in part.

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,177]

14 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well now not only can this green grid not produce when needed, the grid gets a raise. Only if California...err Texas is the gene pool this enlightened...

ERCOT to raise Texas energy prices, blaming high demand from winter storm

Your bills, that will already be higher because of the bitter cold, will stay that way beyond winter.

"Energy prices should reflect scarcity of the supply. If customer load is being shed, scarcity is at its maximum, and the market price for the energy needed to serve that load should also be at its highest,” the order said in part.

New update, no power here till tomorrow afternoon. another 24 hours about.....50+ gallons diesel at 2.69. expensive electricity!!! but cheaper than freezing pipes. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

New update, no power here till tomorrow afternoon. another 24 hours about.....50+ gallons diesel at 2.69. expensive electricity!!! but cheaper than freezing pipes. 

I never realized how expensive it was to run an individual generator. I have thought about getting a large propane generator and disconnecting from the grid. Why does it cost so much more when you pay the grid so many other taxes and fees too?

[turbguy + 1,391]

59 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 Odd did someone miss this?

What’s the big deal? A surge of renewables onto a grid without sufficient rotating mass could cause serious problems: power being cut in certain areas in an effort to bring demand back in line with supply; and large power plants getting disconnected from the grid to prevent them becoming overloaded.

The key to understanding this is frequency i.e. the speed of the grid. Some parts of the world such as the U.S. operate at a frequency of 60 Hz. Other parts operate at 50 Hz. Taking a simplified view of things, this is a measure of how fast electrons are moving along an alternating current wire. 60 times a second (60 Hz) or fifty times a second (50 Hz) is the frequency of the grid. If it rises too much above or below that, trouble results.

With the advent of both power electronics and DFIG's , you can extract MUCH more stored rotating inertia from a wind turbine than a synchronous connected steam turbine.  The steam turbine-generator stores a whole lot, but can only extract about 5% of it without tripping underfrequency relaying.  With a wind machine as featured, you can get about 90% (+/-). 

[turbguy + 1,391]

6 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I never realized how expensive it was to run an individual generator. I have thought about getting a large propane generator and disconnecting from the grid. Why does it cost so much more when you pay the grid so many other taxes and fees too?

They get a real deal on fuel!

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 minutes ago, turbguy said:

They get a real deal on fuel!

One of our commentors bought a used propane truck so he could store his own propane and purchase in large amounts for his truck. Apparently it is doable if you are allowed to keep such items on your property. 

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,177]

41 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I never realized how expensive it was to run an individual generator. I have thought about getting a large propane generator and disconnecting from the grid. Why does it cost so much more when you pay the grid so many other taxes and fees too?

You could get a 1000 gallon "pig" or 1500 gallon one like the farmers use on the corn dryers and fill early spring when is at it lowest. Not sure how much propane is running in bulk, but say even 1.29 a gallon...... figure on a gallon an hour on 15k watt genset. Still fairly expensive electricity. NG gensets are less to operate but to run as full time buying power from your local electric company is probably 6cents a kilowatt? Hard to beat that. Ours used to CILCO Central Illinois Light Company, but is Ameren now for 12 years i thinks??

Edited February 17, 2021 by Old-Ruffneck

[turbguy + 1,391]

27 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

One of our commentors bought a used propane truck so he could store his own propane and purchase in large amounts for his truck. Apparently it is doable if you are allowed to keep such items on your property. 

Also, large generators are more efficient than small ones.  I have a air-cooled nat gas fueled recip (auto-start,auto transfer) as I live in a HIGHLY rural area with a major nat gas pipeline nearby, tapped for local supply.  Utilities call my area "ranch power" (ie, at the end of a distant, convoluted distribution system) with frequent outages (forced and planned), with a private well and septic system.  It's bad to loose heat, but loosing water is worse.

Anyhow, efficiency is abysmal...and performance is degraded residing at 7400'.

Covenants on my property do not permit propane.

And it REALLY easy to "social distance".

Edited February 17, 2021 by turbguy

[Roch + 537]

4 hours ago, Roch said:

 

No Power = no cell towers, no traffic lights , no heat , no nothing.

How many people died because of lack of power in Texas.

Houston mother and daughter die from family trying to heat up by running car in a garage

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2021/02/16/texas-mother-daughter-die-after-heating-home-with-car/ 

Tuesday night Texas:

4 million still without power.

11 died

Edited February 17, 2021 by Roch

[Symmetry + 109]

1 minute ago, turbguy said:

 It's bad to loose heat, but loosing water is worse.

Indeed.  I was watching a small farm for a friend and the well pump died.  You miss flush toilets pretty quick!

 

[hemanthaa@mail.com + 64]

Oh dear! Who thought this would happen? This is just one unforseen event, follks.