.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

3 hours ago, BakkenOil said:

Funny that everyone is pushing the fault onto “green” energy and not the fact that the idiots didn’t winterize their infrastructure. 

This thread is now more than a month old and more than 70 pages long. We are very far past the simple (and probably incorrect)  "blame the wind turbines" of the first  post. The consensus appears to be that the main faults were NG supply failure and failure of non-winterized NG power plants, but that we really need to wait until we have better information.

[Boat + 1,315]

 

The bigger problem is the ease the Republican and their news outlets jumped straight into lies and disinformation. Typically they cover statements from their leader about the oppositions “fake” news. Talk about a “swamp” . It’s like a herd of Buffalo stampeding off a cliff that never hit bottom. History will not be kind to the lack of honesty and critical thinking.

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

18 hours ago, BakkenOil said:

Funny that everyone is pushing the fault onto “green” energy and not the fact that the idiots didn’t winterize their infrastructure. 

How do you "winterize" a wind generation blade system?

Edited April 7, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,177]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

How do you "winterize" a wind generation blade system?

Get a flame thrower and "nuke em" hehehe. 🙂

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

1 hour ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

Get a flame thrower and "nuke em" hehehe. 🙂

So as it was written so you too shall be canceled..slowly..

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[Boat + 1,315]

Meanwhile Wind grows in Texas.

That output pushed wind’s share of the ERCOT electricity market to 38.6% and the No. 1 spot in total generation. It’s another first for the rapidly expanding resource, according to a report from the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (IEEFA) analyst Dennis Wamsted, which was emailed to Electrek by IEEFA.

Texas is the US leader for wind energy, and its solar capacity is rocketing – whether Governor Greg Abbott (R-TX) likes it or not.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Boat

[turbguy + 1,391]

And a short article of interest concerning cold weather ops for wind turbines.

https://www.windpowerengineering.com/3-steps-wind-farm-owners-can-take-to-keep-turbines-spinning-through-extreme-cold/?spMailingID=43397&puid=1277177&E=1277177&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=43397

[turbguy + 1,391]

6 hours ago, Boat said:

Meanwhile Wind grows in Texas.

That output pushed wind’s share of the ERCOT electricity market to 38.6% and the No. 1 spot in total generation. It’s another first for the rapidly expanding resource, according to a report from the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (IEEFA) analyst Dennis Wamsted, which was emailed to Electrek by IEEFA.

Texas is the US leader for wind energy, and its solar capacity is rocketing – whether Governor Greg Abbott (R-TX) likes it or not.

Texas is gonna need some storage to maintain reliability, or pay for spinning reserve.

[joeschmoe + 2]

Just AMAZINGLY clueless. They have windmills in NORTH DAKOTA, properly winterized. What's more, gas plants in Texas had to shut down too, unable to operate in the extreme cold.

  It is a clear picture of incompetent management of the grid, they were caught with their pants down, counting on a "normal" weather pattern when Global Warming reared its head. That's right, that freeze was a result of Global Warming, Arctic air pushed to Texas. Too bad deniers can't grasp simple science and choose to hate on scientists for the facts and green energy for looking for solutions. They are angry flat-earthers, unable to adapt or even acknowledge weather changes brought on by Global Warming, forging on looking neither right or left, leaving their intelligence behind in their attacks on facts.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by joeschmoe
correction

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, joeschmoe said:

That's right, that freeze was a result of Global Warming

Talk about leaving intelligence behind, all of yours is obviously in your behind

[turbguy + 1,391]

7 hours ago, joeschmoe said:

Just AMAZINGLY clueless. They have windmills in NORTH DAKOTA, properly winterized. What's more, gas plants in Texas had to shut down too, unable to operate in the extreme cold.

  It is a clear picture of incompetent management of the grid, they were caught with their pants down, counting on a "normal" weather pattern when Global Warming reared its head. ather changes brought on by Global Warming, forging on looking neither right or left, leaving their intelligence behind in their attacks on facts.

 

Hard to say if global warming was a contributing factor to the Texas weather event.  Time will tell if such "wild swings" increase.  I'm not denying that potential cause, however by the time it becomes obvious that things are dramatically changing, it may be too late to be able to regain past expectations.   A "catch-22".

The incompetence lies not with ERCOT.  Their management actually saved the grid.  It lies with the fractured energy supply system within Texas, set up in the name of a "energy market", by politics, paid for by the market participants.

If wind turbines accumulate ice, the current "solution" is to either shut them down, or recognize icing is coming, and shut them down beforehand.   While blade heating and coatings are possible, I don't believe they are extensively used (yet).  Most wind turbine weatherization programs apply to the lubricated systems (e.g. gearboxes, yaw motors).

  

Edited April 8, 2021 by turbguy

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/04/amazon-warns-texas-dont-pass-bill-that-would-drive-up-wind-power-costs/

Amazon warns Texas: Don’t pass bill that would drive up wind power costs

Ancillary services are the levers that operators can pull to keep electricity flowing. Electrical grids are finely tuned pieces of infrastructure that must be kept in balance at all times. Uncontrolled surges in demand or generation can take down key pieces of equipment, like transformers, sending entire regions into blackout.

Ancillary services cover a wide range of functions: operators might call on peaker plants to ramp up generation to counter an anticipated spike in demand, or they might rely on battery storage to stabilize within seconds threatening dips in frequency.

They might also order some plants to shut down to prevent the grid from becoming overloaded.

[turbguy + 1,391]

7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/04/amazon-warns-texas-dont-pass-bill-that-would-drive-up-wind-power-costs/

Amazon warns Texas: Don’t pass bill that would drive up wind power costs

Ancillary services are the levers that operators can pull to keep electricity flowing. Electrical grids are finely tuned pieces of infrastructure that must be kept in balance at all times. Uncontrolled surges in demand or generation can take down key pieces of equipment, like transformers, sending entire regions into blackout.

Ancillary services cover a wide range of functions: operators might call on peaker plants to ramp up generation to counter an anticipated spike in demand, or they might rely on battery storage to stabilize within seconds threatening dips in frequency.

They might also order some plants to shut down to prevent the grid from becoming overloaded.

I do feel that some ancillary service costs, that can be DEMONSTRATED to arise from penetration of renewable generation, should be paid for BY that renewable generation.  Either that, or they OWN and operate the ancillary services.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

3 hours ago, turbguy said:

I do feel that some ancillary service costs, that can be DEMONSTRATED to arise from penetration of renewable generation, should be paid for BY that renewable generation.  Either that, or they OWN and operate the ancillary services.

Well the ins Co's are now denying coverage, someplace a smidge of Higgey Higgey design was taking place. They have found it and i am quite sure there reasoning was design malfeasance, while i am no engineer by any chance i can tell you just from reading some of the extraordinary commentary on this thread this grid was a mumbo jumbo dream world. I sit here a have visions of some young brilliant sales engineer openly stating yep we have this...a seamless Green transition into the existing grid....We shall see someday...for now this is only my opinion strictly a opinion at that.

Turbguy i do not dislike Green Energy it is just not ready yet, perhaps Musk will build a working grid for a city of a million, once proven and deemed reliable and economically sound he or that person will own the world.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[Piotr Berman + 82]

Turbguy:: The incompetence lies not with ERCOT.  Their management actually saved the grid.  It lies with the fractured energy supply system within Texas, set up in the name of a "energy market", by politics, paid for by the market participants.

If wind turbines accumulate ice, the current "solution" is to either shut them down, or recognize icing is coming, and shut them down beforehand.   While blade heating and coatings are possible, I don't believe they are extensively used (yet).  Most wind turbine weatherization programs apply to the lubricated systems (e.g. gearboxes, yaw motors).

Me: I would imagine that ERCOT is responsible for the nature of energy supply system within Texas.  From what I read, it is dominated by absentee members that live in places like Minnesota.  In other words, they are like a typical Board of Directors, busy with assorted jobs and diversions, occasionally meeting on Zoom to exchange gossip.  

One feature in Texas (and elsewhere) is a system of continuous bidding between vendors and buyers of electricity.  That seems to FORCE cost cutting, if your cost are higher by 0.1 c/kWh, others eat your breakfast, lunch and dinner.  It is not like the technology preventing wind turbines or gas pipelines going out of service in a moderate cold (well, rather rare down South) is unknown to operators in Texas, or that cold snaps that occur every 10 years or so are "historically unprecedented".  But it can be economically loosing to prepare for once in 10 year event (unless you could loose your investment, but a week off is economically OK).  An entity like ERCOT could REGULATE by imposing anti-freeze measures, and Texans would "suffer" with electricity being more expensive -- by 1-2%? 

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

19 minutes ago, Piotr Berman said:

Turbguy:: The incompetence lies not with ERCOT.  Their management actually saved the grid.  It lies with the fractured energy supply system within Texas, set up in the name of a "energy market", by politics, paid for by the market participants.

 

If wind turbines accumulate ice, the current "solution" is to either shut them down, or recognize icing is coming, and shut them down beforehand.   While blade heating and coatings are possible, I don't believe they are extensively used (yet).  Most wind turbine weatherization programs apply to the lubricated systems (e.g. gearboxes, yaw motors).

Me: I would imagine that ERCOT is responsible for the nature of energy supply system within Texas.  From what I read, it is dominated by absentee members that live in places like Minnesota.  In other words, they are like a typical Board of Directors, busy with assorted jobs and diversions, occasionally meeting on Zoom to exchange gossip.  

One feature in Texas (and elsewhere) is a system of continuous bidding between vendors and buyers of electricity.  That seems to FORCE cost cutting, if your cost are higher by 0.1 c/kWh, others eat your breakfast, lunch and dinner.  It is not like the technology preventing wind turbines or gas pipelines going out of service in a moderate cold (well, rather rare down South) is unknown to operators in Texas, or that cold snaps that occur every 10 years or so are "historically unprecedented".  But it can be economically loosing to prepare for once in 10 year event (unless you could loose your investment, but a week off is economically OK).  An entity like ERCOT could REGULATE by imposing anti-freeze measures, and Texans would "suffer" with electricity being more expensive -- by 1-2%? 

 

You're talking about capacity market, which is different than a generation market, which is what Texas has. Your 1-2% is laughably low, every where it's been implemented the cost of electricity to consumers has been more than double or triple. Not 1-2% but 100-300%. Here's a comment from the YouTube explanation I linked to days ago

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Ward Smith

[turbguy + 1,391]

1 hour ago, Piotr Berman said:

Turbguy:: The incompetence lies not with ERCOT.  Their management actually saved the grid.  It lies with the fractured energy supply system within Texas, set up in the name of a "energy market", by politics, paid for by the market participants.

 

If wind turbines accumulate ice, the current "solution" is to either shut them down, or recognize icing is coming, and shut them down beforehand.   While blade heating and coatings are possible, I don't believe they are extensively used (yet).  Most wind turbine weatherization programs apply to the lubricated systems (e.g. gearboxes, yaw motors).

Me: I would imagine that ERCOT is responsible for the nature of energy supply system within Texas.  From what I read, it is dominated by absentee members that live in places like Minnesota.  In other words, they are like a typical Board of Directors, busy with assorted jobs and diversions, occasionally meeting on Zoom to exchange gossip.  

One feature in Texas (and elsewhere) is a system of continuous bidding between vendors and buyers of electricity.  That seems to FORCE cost cutting, if your cost are higher by 0.1 c/kWh, others eat your breakfast, lunch and dinner.  It is not like the technology preventing wind turbines or gas pipelines going out of service in a moderate cold (well, rather rare down South) is unknown to operators in Texas, or that cold snaps that occur every 10 years or so are "historically unprecedented".  But it can be economically loosing to prepare for once in 10 year event (unless you could loose your investment, but a week off is economically OK).  An entity like ERCOT could REGULATE by imposing anti-freeze measures, and Texans would "suffer" with electricity being more expensive -- by 1-2%? 

 

ERCOT is responsible for the electric grid.  The Texas RRC is responsible for nat gas supply to customers (including electric generation stations).   Seems to me that these two entities need to be either combined, or FORCED to work together.

[turbguy + 1,391]

2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well the ins Co's are now denying coverage, someplace a smidge of Higgey Higgey design was taking place. They have found it and i am quite sure there reasoning was design malfeasance, while i am no engineer by any chance i can tell you just from reading some of the extraordinary commentary on this thread this grid was a mumbo jumbo dream world. I sit here a have visions of some young brilliant sales engineer openly stating yep we have this...a seamless Green transition into the existing grid....We shall see someday...for now this is only my opinion strictly a opinion at that.

Turbguy i do not dislike Green Energy it is just not ready yet, perhaps Musk will build a working grid for a city of a million, once proven and deemed reliable and economically sound he or that person will own the world.

It may not be ready.  It is here.  And it is growing.  That is the reality. 

Most of the electricity you are using in Portland is already renewable, no? 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

6 minutes ago, turbguy said:

It may not be ready.  It is here.  And it is growing.  That is the reality. 

Most of the electricity you are using in Portland is already renewable, no? 

Not at all, as odd as it may sound Oregon at large talks a big game when it comes to the environment yet in reality little is done. Hydro power is the game here, along those lines Oregon (Portland) went thru this Green EV rage in 2008/15... It is a dead issue these days. Been there done that would be the word. It was so big at one time the DMV lost money thru gas taxes and tried to create various supplemental tax alternatives but all have failed.

Portland itself is facing other issues that may well turn this blue state red, the inner city is deserted, the police are leaving the community, commercial real estate is down over 40% the city has to many other issues to deal with. I put up those pics merely to demonstrate the low level of thought and intellect in this metro plex..The gene pool has been severely diminished,

[turbguy + 1,391]

8 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Not at all, as odd as it may sound Oregon at large talks a big game when it comes to the environment yet in reality little is done. Hydro power is the game here, along those lines Oregon (Portland) went thru this Green EV rage in 2008/15... It is a dead issue these days. Been there done that would be the word. It was so big at one time the DMV lost money thru gas taxes and tried to create various supplemental tax alternatives but all have failed.

Portland itself is facing other issues that may well turn this blue state red, the inner city is deserted, the police are leaving the community, commercial real estate is down over 40% the city has to many other issues to deal with. I put up those pics merely to demonstrate the low level of thought and intellect in this metro plex..The gene pool has been severely diminished,

Hydropower = renewable energy.  Fusion powered, just like most other forms (except geothermal)!

EV's in Wyoming pay a large road tax built into yearly state licensing fees, to make up for loss of road use taxes on fuel. 

Additionally, the Legislature is considering a per-mile tax on ALL vehicles, over and above road use taxes on fuel.

Edited April 9, 2021 by turbguy

[Robert Ziegler + 121]

On 3/1/2021 at 5:30 PM, NickW said:

Grid isolation devices don't prevent neighbouring countries from helping each other out. As interconnections spread across time zones then peak load time gets spread out and allows respective assistance. it also spreads out across different weather systems which affects both demand and supply if using wind, solar and to a degree Hydro. 

Likewise latitude spread of interconnections means the grid is more likely to contain a mix of regions which have summer or winter peak demand. This means more likelihood of mutual assistance where summer peak demand regions  export to winter peak demand areas. 

Not heard anything about Germany and can't find anything on the Net. The widescale investment in grid scale battery will support frequency levels 

I'm sure parts of Europe will have the occasional black out due to transmission issues. I bet its nothing like the scale of the Texas cascade disaster. 

 

This link shows the European transmission system linked into the whole of North Africa, West Asia and Russia as far as the Urals. 

Grid Map (entsoe.eu)

First, transporting electricity is extremely inefficient (except in multi-billion DC ultra-high voltage lines, but nobody except China has built these yet). Even over a few hundred miles, a gas pipleline is way more efficient than a power line. Electric Grid losses easy are in the double digit %, and can reach even 50%..... Also with gas, there is storage "in the grid" whereas everything electric is real time...... The only way to stabilize the frequency is teh large rotating masses of conventional power plants, which the Germans make now run for only this purpose..... What a waste. A good combined cycle gas plant alone with heat & power is more efficient than a gas turbine used as backup over the year of the windmills. Which makes windmills net CO2 emitters during the year, aside of their large rucksack they carry for the concrete steel and rare metals and earths that are needed to put them in place.

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, Robert Ziegler said:

First, transporting electricity is extremely inefficient (except in multi-billion DC ultra-high voltage lines, but nobody except China has built these yet). Even over a few hundred miles, a gas pipleline is way more efficient than a power line. Electric Grid losses easy are in the double digit %, and can reach even 50%..... Also with gas, there is storage "in the grid" whereas everything electric is real time...... The only way to stabilize the frequency is teh large rotating masses of conventional power plants, which the Germans make now run for only this purpose..... What a waste. A good combined cycle gas plant alone with heat & power is more efficient than a gas turbine used as backup over the year of the windmills. Which makes windmills net CO2 emitters during the year, aside of their large rucksack they carry for the concrete steel and rare metals and earths that are needed to put them in place.

Within Europe most interconnections are relatively short and the investment cost is offset by the overall reduction in capital costs to build conventional peaking plant. 

Stablising the grid can also be provided for through Hydro, pump storage and as we are now seeing increasing deployment of batteries. Europe is moving its Hydro fleet to being a peak supplier rather than  baseload. Typical example is Norway - on Windy days it imports from Denmark, Germany etc and on lower wind days exports Hydro. Its retrofitting many of its conventional Hydro plants with pump storage capacity which will further enhance this service.

Contrary to the point you make the relatively small amount of coal (inc Lignite) is used to provide baseload. There is some flexing of gas to meet demand variations but the vast bulk is meet by variations in Hydro output which Europe collectively has about 100GW plus can also access Hydro resources from Russia, Ukraine and Turkey. 

Look at the hourly electricity mix in this link

Wind Power Numbers | WindEurope

I see the old chestnut about wind being a net CO2 producer is alive and well. 

[turbguy + 1,391]

3 hours ago, Robert Ziegler said:

First, transporting electricity is extremely inefficient (except in multi-billion DC ultra-high voltage lines, but nobody except China has built these yet). Even over a few hundred miles, a gas pipleline is way more efficient than a power line. Electric Grid losses easy are in the double digit %, and can reach even 50%..... Also with gas, there is storage "in the grid" whereas everything electric is real time...... The only way to stabilize the frequency is teh large rotating masses of conventional power plants, which the Germans make now run for only this purpose..... What a waste. A good combined cycle gas plant alone with heat & power is more efficient than a gas turbine used as backup over the year of the windmills. Which makes windmills net CO2 emitters during the year, aside of their large rucksack they carry for the concrete steel and rare metals and earths that are needed to put them in place.

...and yet the system works.

Wind turbines can actually provide greater amounts of stored rotating inertia than synchronous machines.   Synchronous machines will trip if frequency (speed) deviates by greater that 1%, so a huge amount of stored inertia is unavailable.  Wind turbine (being typically non-synchronous) can contribute stored inertia over a MUCH larger speed range.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

Wall Street and big tech team up to oppose Texas wind power bill

https://www.ft.com/content/39091187-ce77-4bc5-8903-441d5fa7a5d4

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

16 hours ago, turbguy said:

ERCOT is responsible for the electric grid.  The Texas RRC is responsible for nat gas supply to customers (including electric generation stations).   Seems to me that these two entities need to be either combined, or FORCED to work together.

Those natural gas supplies would easily have made it to the utilities if only the EPA had not mandated that they could not use their own, plentiful natural gas to generate their own power, so the blackout would have had no effect. I didn't bother responding to the idiocy a few pages back that suggested a freaking parallel grid to supply the gas producers.

Much easier to bitch slap some brains into the EPA (well admittedly that's likely impossible) or simply demand a carve out. The EPA has their heads up their nether regions if they imagine that natural gas burned in a generator is somehow more polluting than natural gas burned in a bigger generator. I admit, they raise the bar on stupidity every day, but that stupidity takes the cake. Locally produced power has the additional benefit of locally generated heat, which can easily help freezing problems. I guarantee you much more gas was lost due to no power for compressors than ever was lost from frozen valves.