Poland as a breakpoint. Kremlin: Permanent U.S. Military Presence in Poland Would Harm European Security

 The Kremlin expressed concern on Monday over media reports that Poland has requested a permanent U.S. military presence on its soil, saying NATO’s expansion towards Russia’s borders undermined stability in Europe. Warsaw could offer up to $2 billion in funding for such a military presence, according to a Polish Defense Ministry proposal reported by Polish media.Asked about the move, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said it was every country’s sovereign right to take such decisions, but that it would harm the overall atmosphere on the continent.

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Russian military presence any where might harm European security.

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Oh, of course the Poles just have SO many reasons to trust the Russians.

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55 minutes ago, Pavel said:

Russian military presence any where might harm European security.

"Might" is a very polite word for it. 

Unfortunately, Russia has been taken over by what are effectively gangsters, men without moral scruples who will stop at nothing to have their way, including murder of journalists and opponents in broad daylight.  Russia has become the most dangerous country on the planet, especially so as it has a stockpile of nuclear weapons and an unstable political regime.  

What Putin wants is to re-create Imperial Russia, a new USSR.  In that scenario, Poland becomes a vassal State, with its wealth diverted to Russia, its people left as impoverished peasants.  Perhaps to no surprise, the Poles don't see their future that way. 

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(edited)

I would remind you that russian troops are on their territory. US troops are located a couple thousand kilometers from nearest US border.

Once more I suggest watching this and think a litte. Its satire but its also sad because it shows how people are manipulated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkldaRRPAw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOfQ7tgTLg

PS

One simple question for any of you who think that they have something interesting to add
Has any of you ever been to Russia or Ukraine? Because I really think you are specialist of russian or ukrainian affairs thanks to watching CNN and reading New York Times/The Washington Post/Guardian.

Sorry for me its just the same level of knowledge as being a being specialist of US internal affairs thanks to watching biased Russia Today and Press TV.  And there are strong signs of strong antirussian bias in western press.

Maybe a least you speak russian? At least you know cyrillic? So  you could read some russian sources and compare them with western newspapers ?

I assume that both not.

So why do you really think that you know internal situation of Russia in any way better than just vast majority of ordinary Russians? Because you read some western biased press?

Sorry it's really ridicolous.

Here you can read how effective is western message on russian people- today clearly not very effective  https://www.unz.com/akarlin/when-russians-were-americanophiles/

It's totally diferent situation than 25 years ago. And we clearly see here results of US foreign policy in Yugoslavia, Georgia and Ukraine. Just read what Alexander Solzhenitsyn told in his old days about NATO.

 

 

 

Edited by Tomasz
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Russia's economy has now descended to that of Spain, which will likely soon surpass it. California meanwhile has an economy that has surpassed the United Kingdom. Russia's population is declining as is it's status worldwide. See http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/western-sanctions-are-shrinking-russias-population/ 

Russia is a poor sister to China when it could be a wealthy partner to the West. All it would need to do is dump its dictator Putin and his plutocrat buddies. 

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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Russia's economy has now descended to that of Spain, which will likely soon surpass it. California meanwhile has an economy that has surpassed the United Kingdom. Russia's population is declining as is it's status worldwide. See http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/19/western-sanctions-are-shrinking-russias-population/ 

Russia is a poor sister to China when it could be a wealthy partner to the West. All it would need to do is dump its dictator Putin and his plutocrat buddies. 

Here's the problem, Ron.  Putin (and his chums) has no exit strategy.  Where can he (they) go?  Not in exile in the West; that would lead to arrest. If Putin stays in Russia, presumably in retirement, he will be arrested, tried, and likely sentenced to death.  At the least, the money he now has, perhaps some $68 billion, will be expropriated by the next government.  Because he has no exit strategy, Putin's only option is to remain President for Life - at whatever cost to Russia.  So he does. 

To make that work, he needs the backing of the Oligarchs.  So Putin makes these sweetheart deals with the oligarchs, where they back him up in the political arena and in return he hands out these lavish and corrupt contracts for more billions.  All the wealth is in effect taxed or expropriated from the Russian people, who are seriously suffering. The pensioners live in utter poverty; the infrastructure in the hinterlands is totally decrepit. There are entire cities where the roads have gone back to dirt. And nobody has any money.  Where did it go?  To the ruling circle.  

To depose Putin, you would need a military  overthrow of the government.  While not impossible, I see that as unlikely.  So the best the West can do is Containment, to keep the aggression from enveloping further territories and countries, places such as the Baltic States, and slivers of North Norway and Southeast Finland.  Personally, I predict that Russia will stir up more chaos inside Ukraine and use that as a pretext to march on Kharkov. Ukraine will continue to get sliced and diced.  NATO could move in, that might stabilize the place, but expect the Donbas to remain in a state of frozen war for a very long time. Altogether an unpleasant prospect. 

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17 hours ago, Tomasz said:

I would remind you that russian troops are on their territory. US troops are located a couple thousand kilometers from nearest US border.

Once more I suggest watching this and think a litte. Its satire but its also sad because it shows how people are manipulated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkldaRRPAw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOfQ7tgTLg

PS

One simple question for any of you who think that they have something interesting to add
Has any of you ever been to Russia or Ukraine? Because I really think you are specialist of russian or ukrainian affairs thanks to watching CNN and reading New York Times/The Washington Post/Guardian.

Sorry for me its just the same level of knowledge as being a being specialist of US internal affairs thanks to watching biased Russia Today and Press TV.  And there are strong signs of strong antirussian bias in western press.

Maybe a least you speak russian? At least you know cyrillic? So  you could read some russian sources and compare them with western newspapers ?

I assume that both not.

So why do you really think that you know internal situation of Russia in any way better than just vast majority of ordinary Russians? Because you read some western biased press?

Sorry it's really ridicolous.

Here you can read how effective is western message on russian people- today clearly not very effective  https://www.unz.com/akarlin/when-russians-were-americanophiles/

It's totally diferent situation than 25 years ago. And we clearly see here results of US foreign policy in Yugoslavia, Georgia and Ukraine. Just read what Alexander Solzhenitsyn told in his old days about NATO.

 

 

 

Tоварищ Tomasz,

at least you sound like a KGB agent, though you are not far from Putin's clone... Instead of a conclusion, this Latin dictum could help you so much: "Optimus orator est qui minimis verbis plurimum dicit"

до свидания

 

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On 28.05.2018 at 11:37 PM, Tomasz said:

I would remind you that russian troops are on their territory. US troops are located a couple thousand kilometers from nearest US border.

Once more I suggest watching this and think a litte. Its satire but its also sad because it shows how people are manipulated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkldaRRPAw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSOfQ7tgTLg

PS

One simple question for any of you who think that they have something interesting to add
Has any of you ever been to Russia or Ukraine? Because I really think you are specialist of russian or ukrainian affairs thanks to watching CNN and reading New York Times/The Washington Post/Guardian.

Sorry for me its just the same level of knowledge as being a being specialist of US internal affairs thanks to watching biased Russia Today and Press TV.  And there are strong signs of strong antirussian bias in western press.

Maybe a least you speak russian? At least you know cyrillic? So  you could read some russian sources and compare them with western newspapers ?

I assume that both not.

So why do you really think that you know internal situation of Russia in any way better than just vast majority of ordinary Russians? Because you read some western biased press?

Sorry it's really ridicolous.

Here you can read how effective is western message on russian people- today clearly not very effective  https://www.unz.com/akarlin/when-russians-were-americanophiles/

It's totally diferent situation than 25 years ago. And we clearly see here results of US foreign policy in Yugoslavia, Georgia and Ukraine. Just read what Alexander Solzhenitsyn told in his old days about NATO.

 

 

 

Tomasz, I can speak and read Russian and fully concur with Jan van Eck. Moreover, in my opinion, Russian-language media, produced and/or financed by Russia are no source of knowledge at all before having been checked for propaganda, spin-doctoring, disinformation and other methods of subverting public opinion.

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To hold that "Putin wants is to re-create Imperial Russia, a new USSR... [with] Poland [as] a vassal State" is pure spin that has no basis in any observable reality. One doesn't have to like Putin, or his plutocratic government, or much of the Russian state media that is indeed full of propaganda (though, sorry - does anyone watch US news here? Either FOX or CNN or MSNBC sides? If plenty of what you find there isn't propaganda and spin, than I am not sure what constitutes such). But one really doesn't need to pick a side here. Putin, his power vertical, and the elites that are now trying to carve their personal little fiefdoms out of that vertical are awful. In no way does that mean that the barrage of BS in regards to Russia in Anglo media is all true and wonderful unbiased analysis. Even liberal Russian journalists and others who are really trying to change the country for the better, all whom have no love lost for their government, have been finding American (and British, to a smaller extent) coverage of the goings on in their country to border on the absurd. The fact remains that Putin's government is bad for Russian citizens first and foremost. Poland is doing just fine, and is not in any danger of being invaded by this new/old enemy that is suddenly being blown out of any and all proportion, to the delight and loudly expressed glee of military contractors. 

As for NATO setting up on Russia's borders, everyone knew that it would end badly, which is why Gorbachev sought (and was given, as numerous declassified documents now show) assurances that NATO membership to countries like Poland is simply out of question. And we see this continue to play out - and it's playing out just as badly as was predicted by everyone in the 80s, most western politicians included.

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29 minutes ago, Olga Tkachuk said:

 Poland is doing just fine, and is not in any danger of being invaded by this new/old enemy that is suddenly being blown out of any and all proportion, to the delight and loudly expressed glee of military contractors. 

 

As your opening quote was from a post I had made, I would gently mention that there is no need to "invade" in order to create a vassal State.  I don't see Russia crossing over that Border from the Kaliningrad, it strikes me as implausible.  However, Putin does think that the collapse of the USSR was the worst catastrophe possible, and he would love to see some version of it re-created  (with himself at the helm).  Outright border meddling and invasions have been limited to Georgia, South Ossetia, and Ukraine so far, with the Ukraine situation the most serious. Putin does wish to destabilize Ukraine to the point that he can convert that back into a vassal State, with a pliant puppet government, that seems to be clear. 

Meanwhile, the government of Poland is sufficiently worried to invite the US to set up a big military base, and the Poles are prepared to pay some $2 Billion for the privilege of hosting that base.  So, it would seem that they have a bad case of the jitters  (and do see the possibility of being destabilized by Russia).  Cheers. 

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(edited)

The situation in Ukraine is a lot more complex than just Putin wanting it to be 'a vassal state', and Ukraine had all the independence it could muster despite the unavoidably heavy reliance on Russia, with governments that weren't puppets, even when they were pro-Russian like that of Yanukovich's. Until, again, all the talk of joining NATO went into overdrive, and then an overthrow of a government that won in legitimate elections, and was brought to power by the eastern half of the country (which is the way that elections in Ukraine always went, if you look at the map - west picks, east picks, west picks, east picks, etc.). No one should have been surprised that Russia then went on to annex Crimea, where even if the referendum would have been legitimately done, there is absolutely no doubt that the majority there would have voted for the current end result. As for my once fair hometown of Donetsk and the wider region, yes of course if Russia didn't flood the place with weapons, soldiers, etc., the conflict would not have taken this current form. But again, it is still also very much a civil conflict, with people in this area extremely split in their loyalties, and many extremely disdainful of Maidan and post-Maidan developments. 

As for Poles, I am not sure what a vassal state looks like in their case, as they are very far from it, and the former USSR dynamics, despite what Putin may want or may not want. And if it's not an actual invasion that they fear, as you say that there is 'no need to invade', than I am not sure how a US base will protect them (and also protect them from what). If you look at public opinions, the country is very split. This poll as regarding NATO, but I imagine that the negativity toward a purely American venture would be even greater - nevertheless, in a recent poll over 50% of Poles strongly or somewhat agreed with the statement that "The security of your country would be better protected by remaining neutral, rather than being forced to choose sides between NATO and Russia”, and a whopping 19% said they don't know. Only 28% disagreed, and only 6% of them strongly. So let's not confuse what the government wants with what the citizens of the country desire, as these often can be dangerously different.

Edited by Olga Tkachuk
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