GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Any attempt to ramp up EV production to a sizeable percentage of the vehicle stock will cause rare inputs into batteries to grow exponentially in price, thus placing a brick wall in the way of EV demand.

Simple.

So you are saying:

1. Increased production of inputs is impossible.

2. Battery technology won't become more efficient and require fewer inputs.

3. Technology will not develop substitutes.

 

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

So you are saying:

1. Increased production of inputs is impossible.

2. Battery technology won't become more efficient and require fewer inputs.

3. Technology will not develop substitutes.

 

We can always dream about undiscovered and yet-to-be-invented technologies, but that is for Green Dreamers and True Believers.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

We can always dream about undiscovered and yet-to-be-invented technologies, but that is for Green Dreamers and True Believers.

Well that is what people like you said about Moore's Law. So enjoy the show because all the things I mentioned are in active development with massive investment.

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

9 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well that is what people like you said about Moore's Law. So enjoy the show because all the things I mentioned are in active development with massive investment.

Here is what is happening, materials required for batteries are into exponential cost increases, creating a brick wall for any significant expansion of EV growth.

Lithium and cobalt are both in short supply. Demand for cobalt is not going away anytime soon.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shortages-flagged-ev-materials-lithium-cobalt-2021-07-01/#:~:text=Cobalt content in batteries has,2030 from 141%2C000 last year.

"High lithium prices have failed to spur investment in new capacity due to lower long-term contract prices, while the problem for cobalt supply is that it is mainly a byproduct of copper, meaning investment decisions are based on copper prices."

"Cobalt content in batteries has been cut significantly in recent years, but soaring sales of EVs mean demand for the minor metal is expected to rise overall, leaving deficits. Analysts at Roskill forecast cobalt demand will rise to 270,000 tonnes by 2030 from 141,000 last year.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

7 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Here is what is happening, materials required for batteries are into exponential cost increases, creating a brick wall for any significant expansion of EV growth.

Lithium and cobalt are both in short supply. Demand for cobalt is not going away anytime soon.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shortages-flagged-ev-materials-lithium-cobalt-2021-07-01/#:~:text=Cobalt content in batteries has,2030 from 141%2C000 last year.

"High lithium prices have failed to spur investment in new capacity due to lower long-term contract prices, while the problem for cobalt supply is that it is mainly a byproduct of copper, meaning investment decisions are based on copper prices."

"Cobalt content in batteries has been cut significantly in recent years, but soaring sales of EVs mean demand for the minor metal is expected to rise overall, leaving deficits. Analysts at Roskill forecast cobalt demand will rise to 270,000 tonnes by 2030 from 141,000 last year.

Here is what is happening:

1. LFP batteries which don't use cobalt are rapidly scaling and will soon represent the vast majority of EV batteries. (How many times do you need this explained to you?) 

2. Sodium batteries which don't use lithium or cobalt have entered production. Though not EV batteries they are perfect for grid storage. The upshot is that grid batteries will have no demand for lithium or cobalt.

3. Large amounts of investment are moving toward increasing lithium production and it is not going to be tied to copper production.

4. A myriad of other battery efficiency technologies are coming to market that reduce overall cost.

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Here is what is happening:

1. LFP batteries which don't use cobalt are rapidly scaling and will soon represent the vast majority of EV batteries. (How many times do you need this explained to you?) 

2. Sodium batteries which don't use lithium or cobalt have entered production. Though not EV batteries they are perfect for grid storage. The upshot is that grid batteries will have no demand for lithium or cobalt.

3. Large amounts of investment are moving toward increasing lithium production and it is not going to be tied to copper production.

4. A myriad of other battery efficiency technologies are coming to market that reduce overall cost.

No, cobalt is expected to increase in demand for batteries going forward, as I have shown you above. Lithium is essential to EV batteries going forward, and there is a problem with lithium mining, being very dirty and toxic to humans. You have been shown all this more than a few times, but Green Dreamers are a special breed, they are True Believers immune to the tides of reality. Dream on, brother.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Just now, Ecocharger said:

No, cobalt is expected to increase in demand for batteries going forward, as I have shown you above. Lithium is essential to EV batteries going forward, and there is a problem with lithium mining, being very dirty and toxic to humans. You have been shown all this more than a few times, but Green Dreamers are a special breed, they are True Believers immune to the tides of reality. Dream on, brother.

Demand for cobalt may increase but its cost will only affect high performance EV's not the mainstream EV's that most people will buy. The price of cobalt could go to the moon and people would still be buying cobalt free LFP powered EV's at an exponential rate.

Lithium mining is much less dirty and toxic than oil drilling. Your claim that lithium mining is very dirty and toxic to humans is just something you pulled out of your arse.

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

18 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Demand for cobalt may increase but its cost will only affect high performance EV's not the mainstream EV's that most people will buy. The price of cobalt could go to the moon and people would still be buying cobalt free LFP powered EV's at an exponential rate.

Lithium mining is much less dirty and toxic than oil drilling. Your claim that lithium mining is very dirty and toxic to humans is just something you pulled out of your arse.

The dividing line between "high performance" and "mainstream" is a flimsy one, just a few fires will drive up the demand for cobalt.

Lithium mining is so toxic to humans that it has been banned from many jurisdictions. 

Dream on, brother.

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/17/lithium-mining-for-green-electric-cars-is-leaving-a-stain-on-the-planet/

"“One of the biggest environmental problems caused by our endless hunger for the latest and smartest devices is a growing mineral crisis, particularly those needed to make our batteries,” Christina Valimaki an analyst at Elsevier, told UK’s Wired. One of the side effects of lithium mining is water pollution: the process of mining can affect local water supplies, potentially poisoning communities. Yet chemical leakage is also a major concern when it comes to lithium mining. The lithium carbonate extraction process harms the soil, and can cause air pollution. There are also concerns around how to recycle it. Eco-nonprofit Friends of the Earth notes that lithium recycling is fraught, as the metal is “toxic, highly reactive and flammable.” “It tends to be incinerated or ends up in landfill due to very low collection rates and flawed waste legislation,” Friends of the Earth states in their lithium factsheet. “Low collection rates, the low and volatile market price of lithium, and the high cost of recycling relative to primary production have contributed to the absence of lithium recycling.” The organization recommends further social and environmental impact assessments should be made."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

Here is a rundown of the problems with our old friend lithium and the efforts made by some countries to ban lithium mining.

https://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/publications/13_factsheet-lithium-gb.pdf

"Lithium is found in the brine of salt flats. Holes are drilled into the salt flats and the brine is pumped to the surface, leaving it to evaporate in ponds. This allows lithium carbonate to be extracted through a chemical process. The extraction of lithium has significant environmental and social impacts, especially due to water pollution and depletion. In addition, toxic chemicals are needed to process lithium. The release of such chemicals through leaching, spills or air emissions can harm communities, ecosystems and food production. Moreover, lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and also causes air contamination.13 The salt flats where lithium is found are located in arid territories. In these places, access to water is key for the local communities and their livelihoods, as well as the local flora and fauna. In Chile’s Atacama salt flats, mining consumes, contaminates and diverts scarce water resources away from local communities.14 The extraction of lithium has caused water-related conflicts with different communities, such as the community of Toconao in the north of Chile15. In Argentina’s Salar de Hombre Muerto, local communities claim that lithium operations have contaminated streams used for humans, livestock and crop irrigation.16 There has been widespread speculation about whether Bolivia could become a lithium superpower, possibly overtaking Chile, by unlocking its massive resources, which may exceed 100m tonnes in its salt flats.17 Lithium exploration and investment is also taking place outside the Andean region. The American Nova mining corporation, for example, is moving ahead with the purchase of licensing agreements for lithium mining properties in Mongolia, in response to the current boom in sales of electronic goods.18 Bolivia has, so far, resisted large-scale industrial mining of lithium, although it has plans to build a pilot project as a precursor to the possible development of a lithium mining industry in the future.19 However, the lithium-rich Salar de Uyuni is near to the San Cristóbal Mine, which, since it opened in 2007, has caused an “environmental and social disaster that affects all of Southwest Potosí” including through the use of 50,000 litres of water per day.20"

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

28 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The dividing line between "high performance" and mainstream" is a flimsy one, just a few fires will drive up the demand for cobalt.

Lithium mining is so toxic to humans that it has been banned from many jurisdictions. 

Dream on, brother.

LFP is far less prone to fires than cobalt chemistries. Cobalt fires are a big part of the the increased demand for LFP.  Again, how many times do you need to be told this? It is very common knowledge.

"Fire Hazard Analysis for Various Lithium Batteries"

"In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 (LFP) would be considered the safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low likelihood for thermal runaway to propagate." https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

Lithium is still greener than oil and burning gasoline. Especially once we get enough in the product stream for full recycling.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,601]

Why is the world focussed on the promotion of EV's and the destruction of the ICE vehicle when just the 15 largest ships produce more Co2 than all the cars on the planet?

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution-114721

Surely its up to the IMO to sort this out and come up with alternate sources of power for these mega ships.

There are SMR's being built by Samsung 

https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Korean-collaboration-to-research-marine-SMR

There is also LNG as an option

https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/aidanova-lng-powered-cruise-ship/

ICE vehicles are demonised when they're not really the problem at all.

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

11 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

LFP is far less prone to fires than cobalt chemistries. Cobalt fires are a big part of the the increased demand for LFP.  Again, how many times do you need to be told this? It is very common knowledge.

"Fire Hazard Analysis for Various Lithium Batteries"

"In general, of all of the lithium-ion cells that were tested, LiFePO4 (LFP) would be considered the safest cathode material because of the relatively low temperature rise and the resulting low likelihood for thermal runaway to propagate." https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf

Lithium is still greener than oil and burning gasoline. Especially once we get enough in the product stream for full recycling.

 

 

 

No way is lithium "greener", oil and gas do not have the immediate impact on water supply, unless there are rare leaks. Lithium is toxic to humans.

"Lithium is found in the brine of salt flats. Holes are drilled into the salt flats and the brine is pumped to the surface, leaving it to evaporate in ponds. This allows lithium carbonate to be extracted through a chemical process. The extraction of lithium has significant environmental and social impacts, especially due to water pollution and depletion. In addition, toxic chemicals are needed to process lithium. The release of such chemicals through leaching, spills or air emissions can harm communities, ecosystems and food production. Moreover, lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and also causes air contamination."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

As of now, high performance EV batteries require cobalt. "High performance" in this context means "acceptable performance".

https://techxplore.com/news/2021-03-role-cobalt-rechargeable-batteries-effective.html

"Many Co-free cathodes proposed so far are rich in Lithium (Li) or Magnesium (Mg). While some of these cathodes have been found to be fairly promising for replacing Co-based cathodes, their capacities and operational stability are often unsuitable for large-scale commercial use. As a result, most studies exploring Co-free alternatives focused on layered oxide cathodes, such as Nickel (Ni)-rich layered oxide cathodes."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

Prospective lithium mining in America has been challenged.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/business/lithium-mining-race.html

"Atop a long-dormant volcano in northern Nevada, workers are preparing to start blasting and digging out a giant pit that will serve as the first new large-scale lithium mine in the United States in more than a decade — a new domestic supply of an essential ingredient in electric car batteries and renewable energy.

The mine, constructed on leased federal lands, could help address the near total reliance by the United States on foreign sources of lithium.

But the project, known as Lithium Americas, has drawn protests from members of a Native American tribe, ranchers and environmental groups because it is expected to use billions of gallons of precious ground water, potentially contaminating some of it for 300 years, while leaving behind a giant mound of waste."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

Cobalt as well as lithium are part of the EV future,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/business/lithium-mining-race.html

"The United States needs to quickly find new supplies of lithium as automakers ramp up manufacturing of electric vehicles. Lithium is used in electric car batteries because it is lightweight, can store lots of energy and can be repeatedly recharged. Analysts estimate that lithium demand is going to increase tenfold before the end of this decade as Tesla, Volkswagen, General Motors and other automakers introduce dozens of electric models. Other ingredients like cobalt are needed to keep the battery stable."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

As of now, high performance EV batteries require cobalt. "High performance" in this context means "acceptable performance".

https://techxplore.com/news/2021-03-role-cobalt-rechargeable-batteries-effective.html

"Many Co-free cathodes proposed so far are rich in Lithium (Li) or Magnesium (Mg). While some of these cathodes have been found to be fairly promising for replacing Co-based cathodes, their capacities and operational stability are often unsuitable for large-scale commercial use. As a result, most studies exploring Co-free alternatives focused on layered oxide cathodes, such as Nickel (Ni)-rich layered oxide cathodes."

Wrong again, LFP is now what Tesla is using in their standard Model 3 and Model Y and there are a load of new models from other companies also coming out with LFP. Tesla 0-60 performance dropped from 5.3 to 5.8 seconds and the range increased by 4 miles.

Tesla Switching To LFP Batteries For Standard Range Model 3 & Model Y Cars

Tesla has confirmed it is switching to LFP batteries for all standard range Model Y and Model 3 cars.https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/21/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-for-standard-range-model-3-model-y-cars/

Edited November 9, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[notsonice + 1,063]

11 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Why is the world focussed on the promotion of EV's and the destruction of the ICE vehicle when just the 15 largest ships produce more Co2 than all the cars on the planet?

https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/cargo-container-shipping-carbon-pollution-114721

Surely its up to the IMO to sort this out and come up with alternate sources of power for these mega ships.

There are SMR's being built by Samsung 

https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Korean-collaboration-to-research-marine-SMR

There is also LNG as an option

https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/aidanova-lng-powered-cruise-ship/

ICE vehicles are demonised when they're not really the problem at all.

15 largest ships produce more Co2 than all the cars on the planet???? you really have made a fool out of yourself with your comment. The world consumes around 24 million barrels of Gasoline a day and your saying 15 largest ships produce more CO2 than all the cars? CO2 emissions from burning oil or gasoline

18.74pounds CO2 /gallon gasoline and for Distillate Fuel Oil???? 22.46 /gallon. So you are saying that the 15 largest ships are burning over 20 million barrels of oil a day? dude what are What are you smoking?

Edited November 9, 2021 by notsonice

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

The new infrastructure bill from Biden & Co. has been modified to remove the excess Green  residue clogging the passage of this legislative progress. The bill as it currently stands is extremely stimulative for the oil industry, with large-scale roadbuilding plans requiring oil-based asphalt.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-s-infrastructure-bill-screams-bullish-for-oil-as-crude-futures-rise-11636378923?fbclid=IwAR2dpbs6ycVu4kIVQ2Imz2Znv_C2y2x7beRK1I-vUDUnZeuT9TM5BL3gwoQ

"Oil demand is likely to grow in the wake of the $1 trillion infrastructure bill passed by Congress late Friday, Dickson said. “This U.S. infrastructure bill screams bullish for oil,” Dickson wrote."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Wrong again, LFP is now what Tesla is using in their standard Model 3 and Model Y and there are a load of new models from other companies also coming out with LFP. Tesla 0-60 performance dropped from 5.3 to 5.8 seconds and the range increased by 4 miles.

Tesla Switching To LFP Batteries For Standard Range Model 3 & Model Y Cars

Tesla has confirmed it is switching to LFP batteries for all standard range Model Y and Model 3 cars.https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/21/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-for-standard-range-model-3-model-y-cars/

Jay, check the date of the article.

Cobalt as well as lithium are part of the EV future,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/business/lithium-mining-race.html

"The United States needs to quickly find new supplies of lithium as automakers ramp up manufacturing of electric vehicles. Lithium is used in electric car batteries because it is lightweight, can store lots of energy and can be repeatedly recharged. Analysts estimate that lithium demand is going to increase tenfold before the end of this decade as Tesla, Volkswagen, General Motors and other automakers introduce dozens of electric models. Other ingredients like cobalt are needed to keep the battery stable."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 minute ago, Ecocharger said:

Jay, check the date of the article above.

There are a lot of articles above, which one?

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

There are a lot of articles above, which one?

Read.

 

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Cobalt as well as lithium are part of the EV future,

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/business/lithium-mining-race.html

"The United States needs to quickly find new supplies of lithium as automakers ramp up manufacturing of electric vehicles. Lithium is used in electric car batteries because it is lightweight, can store lots of energy and can be repeatedly recharged. Analysts estimate that lithium demand is going to increase tenfold before the end of this decade as Tesla, Volkswagen, General Motors and other automakers introduce dozens of electric models. Other ingredients like cobalt are needed to keep the battery stable."

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

3 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Read.

 

 

Lithium resources are being developed. Cobalt is not used in LFP batteries which will soon be the majority of EV batteries.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

And now the other shoe has dropped. First, Biden & Co. refused to sign on to the natural gas provision of last week's summit, and now Biden & Co. are backtracking on killing another oil pipeline, instead stepping back and waiting for expert advice.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/High-Fuel-Prices-May-Force-Biden-To-Change-Stance-On-Crucial-Pipeline.html

"The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is studying the environmental impact of the replacement project to "help inform any additional action or position the U.S. will be taking on the replacement of Line 5."

The news comes after media reports that the administration was actually planning to kill the Line 5 pipeline—a move that sparked an outcry among Republicans who said shutting down the pipeline will send propane sky high for Michigan residents, who are the biggest consumers of the fuel, according to Politico.

"As we enter the winter months and temperatures drop across the Midwest, the termination of Line 5 will undoubtedly further exacerbate shortages and price increases in home heating fuels like natural gas and propane at a time when Americans are already facing rapidly rising energy prices, steep home heating costs, global supply shortages, and skyrocketing gas prices," Politico quoted Rep. Bob Lata, a Republican from Ohio, as saying in a letter a group of House representatives sent to the White House earlier this month."

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,374]

44 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Lithium resources are being developed. Cobalt is not used in LFP batteries which will soon be the majority of EV batteries.

No, will not, cobalt will continue to be central importance,  according to the most recent assessments, which I gave you above.

Most communities with lithium resources are seeking to ban the mining of them.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,537]

3 hours ago, notsonice said:

15 largest ships produce more Co2 than all the cars on the planet???? you really have made a fool out of yourself with your comment. The world consumes around 24 million barrels of Gasoline a day and your saying 15 largest ships produce more CO2 than all the cars? CO2 emissions from burning oil or gasoline

18.74pounds CO2 /gallon gasoline and for Distillate Fuel Oil???? 22.46 /gallon. So you are saying that the 15 largest ships are burning over 20 million barrels of oil a day? dude what are What are you smoking?

Big polluters: One massive container ship equals 50 million cars

 

                                        April 23, 2009

 

South Korea's STX shipyard says it has designed a ship to carry 22,000 shipping containers that would be 450 meters long and there are already 3,693 new ship builds on the books for ocean going vessels over 150 meters in length due over the next three years.

 

The amount of air pollution just these new ships will put out when launched is equal to having another 29 billion cars on the roads.

 

https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

 

 

How many large container ships are there in the world?

 

 

 

 

According to the International Chamber of Shipping, there are currently more than 50,000 merchant ships operating in the oceans. Container ships (also spelt as containerships) are cargo ships that carry the load in large-sized intermodal containers.Sep 10, 2021

 

 

 

 

As of 2007, the United States Central Intelligence Agency statistics count 4,295 oil tankers of 1,000 long tons deadweight (DWT) or greater worldwide. Panama ...

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=16+ships+bunker+oil+pollution&va=b&t=hc&ia=web

 

“Bunker Fuel” Sounds Bad—It’s Worse Than It Sounds

 

The fuel is cheap, so it has enabled massive shipping of all kinds of things from raw materials to manufactured goods that are transported throughout the world. The problem is that a single large container ship pollutes the equivalent of 50 million cars, while just fifteen of these ships results in emissions equal to all the cars in the world. “And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions.”

 

https://williamliggett.com/2018/05/28/bunker-fuel-sounds-bad-its-worse-than-it-sounds/

 

China, home to seven of the world’s 10 busiest container ports, started rolling out its own low-emissions zones in 2017. Ships entering about a dozen major ports must now switch to 0.5-percent sulfur fuel while at the dock. A government report found the rule has already reduced sulfur emissions in certain regions.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-last-the-shipping-industry-begins-cleaning-up-its-dirty-fuels

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open