GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

1 hour ago, TailingsPond said:

So your wife thinks you are a joke. 

Proud Boys Unite! LOL

Grasshopper if you only knew....Carry on your thought processes are "illuminating"

[ronwagn + 6,290]

15 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

The sales end of car dealership is a very small picture. Most auto dealerships have several hundred employees...maybe 15 in the sales dept.

Banks are highly dependent upon auto dealerships, the dealerships originate loans.

Part supply chains across this country both build and supply parts...Their numbers range in the millions.

The list is mind numbing...

In my experience car dealerships have maybe sixty employees, but others may be far larger. Parts are another story, and I am not up on that. I usually avoid buying parts by getting a new car at about 140,000 miles. That will change now, because of the high price of cars. I will invest more in repairs and may never buy another. I already have three low mileage vehicles. 

I have rarely used car dealers for anything aside from buying a new car. Their prices are a lot higher than an independent mechanic.

I think your are right about parts. I think a lot of people will need parts because they won't be able to afford the new vehicles.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

31 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

Worse yet, there are some people who just aren't fit for doing more complex work.  'Go make robots' is no more an option for them than 'learn to code' is an option for the semi-literate.  This is a real problem, but you can't fix it by halting progress.  I fear that we are headed more and more towards a society set up along medieval lines, with a tiny 'overclass' a small 'productive class' (similar to lesser nobles, merchants and the Church) and a vast 'underclass' that gets by on a mixture of unpleasant odd jobs, and largess from the other classes to prevent excessively revolutionary movements.  This is a bigger issue than just energy issues though.  

That is exactly the plan of the would be ruling class, Rulers of the World, Global Technocrats, Fascists, Communists, Marxists, etc. ad nauseum. This has been going on throughout time, as you mentioned. Different names for the powerful people who want to tell everyone else what to do. It usually involves revolutions, wars, violence, etc. 

The worst thing society can do is to provide everything for those who refuse to work. They will work, when they need or want a better life than poverty. The poverty level must hurt enough to get them to work. That is human nature and has never changed except that it is easier to be a bum in California and other areas with moderate climates and great welfare programs. It also helps if vagrancy laws are not allowed to be enforced, whether it be by judges, district attorneys, attorney generals, or whoever. 

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

2 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

What you say about statistics is true in the general sense, but it's  not correct or useful for describing the behaviour of the data for this specific case.  The problem is that ice cores clearly indicate that temperature and CO2  fluctuations of the sorts we are currently concerned about take place on a scale of hundreds of years - maybe at the most a few thousand.  You cannot model a behavior on that time scale with a small amount of data spread out over 450 million years.  

To use your own previous example of sunspots and solar activity (which have large effects on temperature) you need to be able to get data at least every 2-3 years to be able to even determine that there is a correlationbetween the two, because sunspot and solar cycles tend to take place in 20 to 100 year cycles, and temperature lags by a couple of years.    If you had a data point every million years,  you would conclude that solar cycles did not affect temperature because you would never find any correlation in your data - the time scale on which the changes take place is too short to be visible in the data.  Sampling rates DO matter when you are trying to measure phenomenon that change faster than your sample rate.  

The important consideration is not how much data or how little data, but rather whether the sample is truly random and not biased. A biased sample will cause a problem, but using a fully randomized sampling technique should overcome the problems you are thinking of.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

7 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The important consideration is not how much data or how little data, but rather whether the sample is truly random and not biased. A biased sample will cause a problem, but using a fully randomized sampling technique should overcome the problems you are thinking of.

fully random, AND a sufficient sampling quantity.  Let's take an example.  I want to find out what it is that you eat on a regular basis.  Every 100 years, for 1,000 years, I sample what you have for each day, and I discover that, on average, you never eat anything.  The problem with my study is that my time range and sampling rates are not appropriate for the activity I am trying to study.  Global climate changes and ice ages of the sorts that have been studied in detail in the Holocene (Iast few hundred thousand years) through ice cores indicate that swings of temperature and CO2 take place over the course of several hundred years at the most,  and in some cases show rapid changes over the course of a few decades.  Taking data points which are millions of years apart is just not enough to get useful information about how CO2 interacts with everything else that influences the climate.  This is especially true given the MANY factors besides CO2 that affect climate.  You have to get data on all of them from/at the same time that you get the CO2 and climate data to be able to untangle any of it.  

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

22 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

fully random, AND a sufficient sampling quantity.  Let's take an example.  I want to find out what it is that you eat on a regular basis.  Every 100 years, for 1,000 years, I sample what you have for each day, and I discover that, on average, you never eat anything.  The problem with my study is that my time range and sampling rates are not appropriate for the activity I am trying to study.  Global climate changes and ice ages of the sorts that have been studied in detail in the Holocene (Iast few hundred thousand years) through ice cores indicate that swings of temperature and CO2 take place over the course of several hundred years at the most,  and in some cases show rapid changes over the course of a few decades.  Taking data points which are millions of years apart is just not enough to get useful information about how CO2 interacts with everything else that influences the climate.  This is especially true given the MANY factors besides CO2 that affect climate.  You have to get data on all of them from/at the same time that you get the CO2 and climate data to be able to untangle any of it.  

That depends on what it is you are attempting to study, so, no, a time series with some fifty data points does provide sufficient information to establish the existence of a natural relationship, if it is clear and consistent in the relationship. If data are wobbling all over the place, then you will not establish a clear relationship. Again, the key issue is the sampling technique, if the sample is biased (and that is where complaints are often made about the sampling technique used in many climate models) then you have a problem. But a truly random sample should not pose a problem.

Here is a very recent model, about one year old,  by the same scientist establishing the key role of solar cycles in driving global temperature change, with plenty of data points.

https://www.mdpi.com/2225-1154/8/11/130/htm

"The Eddy Cycle of sunspot activity oscillates in phase with the AIM temperature cycle and therefore may force the internal climate cycles documented here. Climate forecasts based on the historic ACWO wind pattern project imminent global cooling and in ~4 centuries a recurrent homolog of the Little Ice Age. Our study provides a theoretically-unified explanation of contemporary global warming and other climate milestones based on natural climate cycles driven by the Sun, "

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Eric Gagen + 713]

25 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

That depends on what it is you are attempting to study, so, no, a time series with some fifty data points does provide sufficient information to establish the existence of a natural relationship, if it is clear and consistent in the relationship. If data are wobbling all over the place, then you will not establish a clear relationship. Again, the key issue is the sampling technique, if the sample is biased (and that is where complaints are often made about the sampling technique used in many climate models) then you have a problem. But a truly random sample should not pose a problem.

Here is a very recent model, about one year old,  by the same scientist establishing the key role of solar cycles in driving global temperature change, with plenty of data points.

https://www.mdpi.com/2225-1154/8/11/130/htm

"The Eddy Cycle of sunspot activity oscillates in phase with the AIM temperature cycle and therefore may force the internal climate cycles documented here. Climate forecasts based on the historic ACWO wind pattern project imminent global cooling and in ~4 centuries a recurrent homolog of the Little Ice Age. Our study provides a theoretically-unified explanation of contemporary global warming and other climate milestones based on natural climate cycles driven by the Sun, "

 

These guys have WAY more than 50 data points.  They may only have ~ 50 points of temperature data, but they have thousands of points to correlate against.  The CO2/temperature study you first cited has ~ 25 data points TOTAL for all measurements.  It's just not valid.  It's good data (I hope) but by itself it can't be used to answer the question we are trying to answer.  It just doesn't have sufficient resolution.  

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

6 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

These guys have WAY more than 50 data points.  They may only have ~ 50 points of temperature data, but they have thousands of points to correlate against.  The CO2/temperature study you first cited has ~ 25 data points TOTAL for all measurements.  It's just not valid.  It's good data (I hope) but by itself it can't be used to answer the question we are trying to answer.  It just doesn't have sufficient resolution.  

"These guys" are the same guys in both projects. 

Here is the description of the sampling technique in the study.

Notice that he claims to "encompass all known major Phanerozoic climate transitions", so the test is directed at climate TRANSITIONS, not every single year of climate change. The perspective is to identify the forces involved in temperature change, so the transitions are targeted, and he has allegedly included all of them. So this is not neglecting data outside the terms of the study, which is zeroed in on transitions.

"Marginal radiative forcing (ΔRF_CO2), the change in forcing at the top of the troposphere associated with a unit increase in atmospheric CO₂ concentration, was computed using MODTRAN. The correlation between ΔRF_CO2 and linearly-detrended T across the Phanerozoic Eon is positive and discernible, but only 2.6% of variance in T is attributable to variance in ΔRF_CO2. Of 68 correlation coefficients (half non-parametric) between ΔRF_CO2 and T proxies encompassing ALL KNOWN major Phanerozoic climate TRANSITIONS, 75.0% are non-discernible and 41.2% of discernible correlations are negative."

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 473]

16 hours ago, ronwagn said:

 

The worst thing society can do is to provide everything for those who refuse to work. They will work, when they need or want a better life than poverty. The poverty level must hurt enough to get them to work.

Basically endorsing wage slavery.

People generally enjoy contributing in ways that match their talents. Does a stay-at-home parent work in your mind?

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by TailingsPond

[TailingsPond + 473]

17 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Part supply chains across this country both build and supply parts...Their numbers range in the millions.

Exactly why industry doesn't want longer lasting products.

Planned obsolescence is not the same a scarcity. We want / need crap to break just so we can make replacements. If it doesn't break we make you replace it anyways by convincing you the newer model is status symbol.

 

Capitalism requires constant (unsustainable) growth or the whole scheme collapses. The only way for industry to constantly grow is for stuff to be constantly destroyed. Ever notice that war stimulates economies in the long run?

Edited December 25, 2021 by TailingsPond

[Eric Gagen + 713]

17 hours ago, ronwagn said:

That is exactly the plan of the would be ruling class, Rulers of the World, Global Technocrats, Fascists, Communists, Marxists, etc. ad nauseum. This has been going on throughout time, as you mentioned. Different names for the powerful people who want to tell everyone else what to do. It usually involves revolutions, wars, violence, etc. 

The worst thing society can do is to provide everything for those who refuse to work. They will work, when they need or want a better life than poverty. The poverty level must hurt enough to get them to work. That is human nature and has never changed except that it is easier to be a bum in California and other areas with moderate climates and great welfare programs. It also helps if vagrancy laws are not allowed to be enforced, whether it be by judges, district attorneys, attorney generals, or whoever. 

The problem isn't one of refusing to work.  The problem is that there is literally nothing they have the capacity to do that will make enough money to get the minimum of food and shelter that people need.  That hasn't been an overwhelming problem for the last couple of hundred years, because we were in the midst of a massive economic expansion driven by technology, and access to lots of land that was relatively empty.  It's a problem now though, and there are 3 options:

Some sort of feudal society until conditions change (hopefully through increased technology)

Slavery (what you seem to be proposing) until enough of the enslaved poor die that conditions are different

War and destruction until the population level goes down enough for something different to start

Of the 3 a feudal society is the least bad.  Unless we come up with a lot of major new technological innovations, and fast, we should be preparing to make the best of the options before us.  

Edited December 25, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

The problem isn't one of refusing to work.  The problem is that there is literally nothing they have the capacity to do that will make enough money to get the minimum of food and shelter that people need.  That hasn't been an overwhelming problem for the last couple of hundred years, because we were in the midst of a massive economic expansion driven by technology, and access to lots of land that was relatively empty.  It's a problem now though, and there are 3 options:

Some sort of feudal society until conditions change (hopefully through increased technology)

Slavery (what you seem to be proposing) until enough of the enslaved poor die that conditions are different

War and destruction until the population level goes down enough for something different to start

Of the 3 a feudal society is the least bad.  Unless we come up with a lot of major new technological innovations, and fast, we should be preparing to make the best of the options before us.  

You have totally distorted my communication. No feudalism is my argument. Of course that means no slavery or abuse of people not breaking the law as put forth in our constitution. Those who cannot work will always be cared for in a Christian manner. Those who are able, but unwilling to work, will be cared for to a similar extent but required to work if they want any extras. Very simple. Mental health and drug help will be available for all who cannot afford to pay for it. Health as well. No to feudalism! We have a Republican form of Democracy guaranteed by our American Constitution. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism

Merry Christmas to all. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Basically endorsing wage slavery.

People generally enjoy contributing in ways that match their talents. Does a stay-at-home parent work in your mind?

 

I encourage stay at home parents and think that is preferable to having a state controlled pre school or whatever. Grandparents can and are often willing to help out. If people are unable to afford but need child care because thy must continue to work, then they should be given a stipend for the private nursery school of their choice. That creates more jobs.

Merry Christmas

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,177]

21 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I encourage stay at home parents and think that is preferable to having a state controlled pre school or whatever. Grandparents can and are often willing to help out. If people are unable to afford but need child care because thy must continue to work, then they should be given a stipend for the private nursery school of their choice. That creates more jobs.

Merry Christmas

Couldn't agree more Ron!!! Spot on! Merry Christmas

[Eric Gagen + 713]

31 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You have totally distorted my communication. No feudalism is my argument. Of course that means no slavery or abuse of people not breaking the law as put forth in our constitution. Those who cannot work will always be cared for in a Christian manner. Those who are able, but unwilling to work, will be cared for to a similar extent but required to work if they want any extras. Very simple. Mental health and drug help will be available for all who cannot afford to pay for it. Health as well. No to feudalism! We have a Republican form of Democracy guaranteed by our American Constitution. 

Merry Christmas to all. 

The “Christian charity” way of handling an economy that has no good choices for the poor and poorly educated IS feudalism - or at least it was in Europe for 1,000 years from ~ 700 AD to 1700 AD 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

26 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

The “Christian charity” way of handling an economy that has no good choices for the poor and poorly educated IS feudalism - or at least it was in Europe for 1,000 years from ~ 700 AD to 1700 AD 

There are all sorts of good choices available for the uneducated in America. We have free public schools that are often good, but not nearly as good as they used to be, in most cases. Discipline has eroded terribly. Standards have eroded terribly. We need vouchers for private school options, more technical school training (meaning carpentry, plumbing, basic electrical, home repair and renewal, automotive repair, etc.) We have internet options that are incredible for all levels of education. There have never been more opportunities to get all levels of education. Much of it is free or supported for the poor. 

Free Education 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nkAnzn9R7NH0LqihEeeq4be4ckBgk70YkGKbHsrnbTU/edit

One example 

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Education Problems

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PjW6KJmKDEqqrTVZyGwWK36YTvr46Axo9WDkY90WtU4/edit

Edited December 25, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[Eric Gagen + 713]

32 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

There are all sorts of good choices available for the uneducated in America. We have free public schools that are often good, but not nearly as good as they used to be, in most cases. Discipline has eroded terribly. Standards have eroded terribly. We need vouchers for private school options, more technical school training (meaning carpentry, plumbing, basic electrical, home repair and renewal, automotive repair, etc.) We have internet options that are incredible for all levels of education. There have never been more opportunities to get all levels of education. Much of it is free or supported for the poor. 

Free Education 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nkAnzn9R7NH0LqihEeeq4be4ckBgk70YkGKbHsrnbTU/edit

One example 

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Education Problems

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PjW6KJmKDEqqrTVZyGwWK36YTvr46Axo9WDkY90WtU4/edit

Agree with all of these things and they are major issues that could (in principal) be addressed, even if they may not be. The real problem though is not skills or education but the ability for people to learn skills and benefit from an education.  In an economy where only highly skilled and educated people have opportunities, those who cannot obtain those abilities (no matter what the effort is) cannot participate.  The economy used to have opportunities for everyone who was willing to put in sufficient effort but quite frankly it doesn’t any longer and absent a major revolution (perhaps a literal political one) it’s not going to get any better any time soon. 
 

You are happily of an age where you don’t have to grapple with these problems in a major way, but the generations coming behind you aren’t so fortunate.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

Agree with all of these things and they are major issues that could (in principal) be addressed, even if they may not be. The real problem though is not skills or education but the ability for people to learn skills and benefit from an education.  In an economy where only highly skilled and educated people have opportunities, those who cannot obtain those abilities (no matter what the effort is) cannot participate.  The economy used to have opportunities for everyone who was willing to put in sufficient effort but quite frankly it doesn’t any longer and absent a major revolution (perhaps a literal political one) it’s not going to get any better any time soon. 
 

You are happily of an age where you don’t have to grapple with these problems in a major way, but the generations coming behind you aren’t so fortunate.

I disagree with you on the possibilities for people who are interested in building a life in the future. I think there are infinite possibilities. Sure, there are people who will never be motivated to accomplish a lot, but we have always had them. Jesus said, the poor are always with us. There are plenty of people who will help them to the extent that they can. All we can do is encourage them and provide opportunities to do what they are capable of and hopefully interested in doing. 

I have attention deficit disorder. I have never been counseled about it. I was born into a housing project in Detroit. My grandmother raised me until I was five. My mother got me and took me to Los Angeles an we lived in a boarding house for a couple of years before she married. I went to an excellent High School but had a C average. I was not willing to do the work to even pass geometry. I dropped out of high school at 17 and joined the army. I graduated at the same time as my class by taking courses by correspondence. Then I got a two year college GED equivalency in the army. After discharge I went on the GI bill and worked full time while getting all of my education. Didn't get my bachelors until age 30, got my masters at 40. Got an RN at 50. My specialty is psychiatric nursing. 

I have direct experience dealing with children who have no or little motivation. It is a real problem, and there are no easy answers and rarely any quick cures. It is a long hard slog. The same is true of anyone who is mentally disabled in any way. Society needs to find them anything they are willing and able to do. 

There is work, for those of working age, even those without high intelligence. Wealthier people from the middle class and above will help them find it, if they want to work. 

I live in a relatively poor town with an acre on a prominent spot in the suburbs. In fourteen years here, I have never had anyone ask for a job helping me and my wife take care of our mowing, leaves, snow, etc. People need baby sitters, child care, nursing assistants, handymen. Houses need refurbishing. The contractor needs helpers to clean up and do all the repairs and painting. I do not believe there is not enough work to be found. I do think that our educational system needs to emphasize the skill building that really needs to be done, not focus on educating the wealthy, but the common person, as well. 

 

 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

38 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I disagree with you on the possibilities for people who are interested in building a life in the future. I think there are infinite possibilities. Sure, there are people who will never be motivated to accomplish a lot, but we have always had them. Jesus said, the poor are always with us. There are plenty of people who will help them to the extent that they can. All we can do is encourage them and provide opportunities to do what they are capable of and hopefully interested in doing. 

I have attention deficit disorder. I have never been counseled about it. I was born into a housing project in Detroit. My grandmother raised me until I was five. My mother got me and took me to Los Angeles an we lived in a boarding house for a couple of years before she married. I went to an excellent High School but had a C average. I was not willing to do the work to even pass geometry. I dropped out of high school at 17 and joined the army. I graduated at the same time as my class by taking courses by correspondence. Then I got a two year college GED equivalency in the army. After discharge I went on the GI bill and worked full time while getting all of my education. Didn't get my bachelors until age 30, got my masters at 40. Got an RN at 50. My specialty is psychiatric nursing. 

I have direct experience dealing with children who have no or little motivation. It is a real problem, and there are no easy answers and rarely any quick cures. It is a long hard slog. The same is true of anyone who is mentally disabled in any way. Society needs to find them anything they are willing and able to do. 

There is work, for those of working age, even those without high intelligence. Wealthier people from the middle class and above will help them find it, if they want to work. 

I live in a relatively poor town with an acre on a prominent spot in the suburbs. In fourteen years here, I have never had anyone ask for a job helping me and my wife take care of our mowing, leaves, snow, etc. People need baby sitters, child care, nursing assistants, handymen. Houses need refurbishing. The contractor needs helpers to clean up and do all the repairs and painting. I do not believe there is not enough work to be found. I do think that our educational system needs to emphasize the skill building that really needs to be done, not focus on educating the wealthy, but the common person, as well. 

 

 

I hope you are right.  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,132]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:02 PM, Eric Gagen said:

Sure it will.  By definition things that don't happen are forgotten.  Nobody remembers the 'Y2K panic' becacuse there wasn't a disaster.  Nobody remembers the hole in the ozone layer because we caught it early.  However in both cases,  action had to be taken to prevent it from becoming a problem.  CO2 will be the same way.  Nobody will remember it because we will fix it by taking action.  

And has said ozone hole changed any?  No.   It increases and decreases by the season.  Northern "hole" can jump by 50% year over year.....  Southern, about the same.  Just idiots couldn't measure it before the mid 80's because no one was measuring it, and no one had access to measure it, and if anyone did,  it ENTIRELY depends on WHEN/WHERE they did the measurement and then their equipment was not able to actually measure it worth a damn, but hey... why bring up inconvenient "facts".  Fact: if you take the statistic anomalies out, the 2010's data is identical to the 1980's data.  Fact is, hole is supposed to be increasing as vast majority of world did not stop using those "horrible" CFC's until 2010's and not even then...

Ah so called "science"...

Edited December 27, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com
punctuation

[turbguy + 1,401]

This situation is really all quite simple, as outlined below:

 

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

What is the healthiest industry right now, and the leader in the energy sector? Oil.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Saudi-Exports-Surge-On-Higher-Oil-Prices.html

"Saudi Arabia exported goods and commodities worth a total $28 billion in October, according to the Kingdom’s General Authority for Statistics, as cited by Bloomberg. Crude oil accounted for 77.6 percent of total exports in that month, up from 66.1 percent a year earlier. The value of total exports was almost double that for October 2020.

The value of oil exports alone was 123 percent higher in October 2021 from a year ago, the statistics authority also said, while the value of non-oil exports rose by 25.5 percent.

One of the world’s top oil exporters has reaped the full benefits of recovering demand for oil this year, upping both its exports and selling prices, despite lingering worries about the pandemic.

Even as the latest coronavirus variant caused fears of new lockdowns and other restrictions, Saudi Arabia raised its official selling prices for oil for Asian buyers and by a hefty $0.60 per barrel.

The decision to hike prices demonstrates confidence that demand for oil will remain robust despite the pandemic. The confidence was also highlighted earlier this month when OPEC+ decided to add another 400,000 bpd to combined production in January despite the U.S. administration’s decision to release up to 50 million barrels of crude in a bid to lower retail fuel prices."

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[QuarterCenturyVet + 312]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:59 AM, TailingsPond said:

Yeah, making robots is way worse than flipping burgers.

Conservatism sets the youth up for failure. They should be focusing on jobs of the future not ideas of the past.

Welcome back @Enthalpic, or is it @-trance? 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:02 AM, TailingsPond said:

Exactly why industry doesn't want longer lasting products.

Planned obsolescence is not the same a scarcity. We want / need crap to break just so we can make replacements. If it doesn't break we make you replace it anyways by convincing you the newer model is status symbol.

 

Capitalism requires constant (unsustainable) growth or the whole scheme collapses. The only way for industry to constantly grow is for stuff to be constantly destroyed. Ever notice that war stimulates economies in the long run?

It is true that planned obsolescence  exists. Ask anyone who works on appliances, or any car mechanic. The first thing to go, for me, have been drivers automatic window, automatic van side doors, automatic van driver seat. The driver seat required a $600 dollar repair that the Chrysler ended up paying for after five visits to the dealer. I had purchased five vehicles from that dealer and they said I wasn't a "loyal" customer because I didn't use their service department. I went off on the service manager and told him I will not buy another vehicle from them.

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

It is true that planned obsolescence  exists. Ask anyone who works on appliances, or any car mechanic. The first thing to go, for me, have been drivers automatic window, automatic van side doors, automatic van driver seat. The driver seat required a $600 dollar repair that the Chrysler ended up paying for after five visits to the dealer. I had purchased five vehicles from that dealer and they said I wasn't a "loyal" customer because I didn't use their service department. I went off on the service manager and told him I will not buy another vehicle from them.

After warranties expire you can use independent service companies.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Ecocharger