Rob Plant + 2,608 RP February 9, 2023 14 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Massively upgrading and expanding by a multiple of several times the electrical infrastructure to accommodate a proposed Green revolution would probably bankrupt the federal budget, which is already on the verge of unsustainability. Eco what are you talking about? This has absolutely nothing to do with the "green revolution", if as you claim the US grid and transmission network is not fit for purpose then it doesnt matter what form of powergen goes into it! Get the blinkers off, this isnt about FF or being green, this is about people and the economy growing and surviving. As I say without investment into a broken grid network and additional power supply from all forms of powergen the US will rapidly give up their title of hegemon and your economy will go backwards. Without an adequate, stable economical power supply people will die and your economy will be toast! 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,608 RP February 9, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ron Wagner said: Wind and solar demand transmission lines to their particular wind and solar farms. Natural gas plants can be built where existing city transmission lines are. Ron offshore/onshore wind farms connect directly to a transmission substation on your existing grid or if there isnt one it's built by the wind farm operator. https://sciencing.com/electricity-move-wind-turbine-businesses-communities-buy-it-21904.html Edited February 9, 2023 by Rob Plant 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,608 RP February 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Ron Wagner said: I can't agree with God being formed by chaos, but I can believe that chaos comes and goes throughout the universe under laws that were set by God. Science is still trying to figure out all of that, as you well know. One theory that I think is ridiculous is the Big Bang theory. It posits that there was one event that created the entire universe all at once. To believe that is IMHO to believe that the universe is not infinite in size. It is infinite in size and has many planes of existence. The human mind cannot come close to understanding infinity and planes of existence. Few people even have a hint of the make up of material objects and the space between atomic particles. I thought the universe was expanding at an ever increasing rate, which is scientifically impossible as we currently understand science. Ahh dark matter, if only anyone had the first clue what the hell that was and how it influences evrything around us! Maybe one day mankind will find out but its not for millenia, if ever. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,398 February 9, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, notsonice said: the problem with the last storm was line failure due to ice... not frozen stockpiles nor problems with frozen rail cars and yes I have worked coal stockpiles and bins the coal stockpiles and bins had nothing to do with the outages I do not know which storm you were referencing. I had assumed it was the recent ice storm in Texas and such (where swaths of Austin were without power for days). I have only heard that Ice damage was limited to distribution system overheads, not generating unit, HV transmission damage, or substation damage from ice. I spoke of examples when cold weather and icing CAN effect fossil generation unit availability. I did not say that any such "non-distribution system" issues actually occurred during this storm. You did. They are rare. Not impossible, just rare. For instance, the cascading HV tower failures in Quebec, 1998. Edited February 9, 2023 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 9, 2023 18 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Oil is big and is going to get bigger, its a generational transition requirement. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Road-Tripping-Retirees-Set-To-Bolster-US-Gasoline-Demand.html FYI "road tripping retirees" will die soon. Not really a growth industry. When they die the younger, liberal, and environmentalist generations will take even more control. You can't force the truth on grandpa, but you can wait for his opinion to die. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 9, 2023 The people questioned answered that they desired travel - not that they were actually doing it. The article even says gasoline is going down and this is just a temporary bolster! @Ecocharger perhaps read what you post "Gasoline demand in the United States may have peaked, but consumption is not expected to fall off a cliff, analysts say. It could even remain more resilient than expected, thanks to more travel from the Boomers demographic this decade." 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 18 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: It is hilarious watching you flail around from one intellectual disaster to the next. I get a chuckle every time you try to explain the Green transition... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 3 hours ago, TailingsPond said: FYI "road tripping retirees" will die soon. Not really a growth industry. When they die the younger, liberal, and environmentalist generations will take even more control. You can't force the truth on grandpa, but you can wait for his opinion to die. Road trips never go out of style. They are addictive to every new generation as soon as they enter their income-generating period. Its called life cycle spending. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 2 hours ago, TailingsPond said: The people questioned answered that they desired travel - not that they were actually doing it. The article even says gasoline is going down and this is just a temporary bolster! @Ecocharger perhaps read what you post "Gasoline demand in the United States may have peaked, but consumption is not expected to fall off a cliff, analysts say. It could even remain more resilient than expected, thanks to more travel from the Boomers demographic this decade." Your characterization of the quote is inconsistent with the quote...should that surprise anyone? Not really. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 February 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: I get a chuckle every time you try to explain the Green transition... I can't help that you aren't bright enough to understand basic economic data. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Eco what are you talking about? This has absolutely nothing to do with the "green revolution", if as you claim the US grid and transmission network is not fit for purpose then it doesnt matter what form of powergen goes into it! Get the blinkers off, this isnt about FF or being green, this is about people and the economy growing and surviving. As I say without investment into a broken grid network and additional power supply from all forms of powergen the US will rapidly give up their title of hegemon and your economy will go backwards. Without an adequate, stable economical power supply people will die and your economy will be toast! Rebuilding the electrical system to accommodate a proposed universal EV planet is massively expensive, don't let anyone kid you on that score. Edited February 10, 2023 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said: I can't help that you aren't bright enough to understand basic economic data. Says the man without a regular economics degree.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 February 10, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Says the man without a regular economics degree.... The University of California says otherwise. But of course you are too ashamed to even tell us where you supposedly went to school. Edited February 10, 2023 by Jay McKinsey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 643 February 10, 2023 17 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Ron offshore/onshore wind farms connect directly to a transmission substation on your existing grid or if there isnt one it's built by the wind farm operator. https://sciencing.com/electricity-move-wind-turbine-businesses-communities-buy-it-21904.html Wind and solar farms in America are usually built far from the end user so require many millions of dollars to connect. Texas had many wind farms that had to wait for a long time before they could connect to their customers. Of course you deal with much shorter distances. Personally, we have the privilege of paying extra green fees (not golf) to support the wind farms whether we want them or not and then get to pay higher fees for their power and the lines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said: Wind and solar farms in America are usually built far from the end user so require many millions of dollars to connect Compared to pipelines which are free... They could put the power plant right next to your house, but do you want it there? Edited February 10, 2023 by TailingsPond 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 February 10, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said: Wind and solar farms in America are usually built far from the end user so require many millions of dollars to connect. Texas had many wind farms that had to wait for a long time before they could connect to their customers. Of course you deal with much shorter distances. Personally, we have the privilege of paying extra green fees (not golf) to support the wind farms whether we want them or not and then get to pay higher fees for their power and the lines. Thousand mile pipelines to deliver gas to a local power plant are not a problem but a thousand mile transmission line and oh the horror! Edited February 10, 2023 by Jay McKinsey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Road trips never go out of style. They are addictive to every new generation as soon as they enter their income-generating period. Its called life cycle spending. Try telling the young that their lives will play out like their parents did... Your "get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids, retire, die" fantasy is out-of-date. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 Fun times on the road 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: So natural gas power plants are so feeble they require renewable electricity to work. Good to know! I laugh at "grid strain" for EV's. Around here the winter is so cold people have to plug in their gasoline cars and it doesn't even charge the battery. Block heaters are a gigantic waste of energy. Diesel trucks run so poorly in the extreme cold the drivers often just leave them idling rather than risk turning them off and having them fail to restart. Booster cables are in everyone's trunk... Let us praise fossil fuels and its reliability! Edited February 10, 2023 by TailingsPond 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: The University of California says otherwise. But of course you are too ashamed to even tell us where you supposedly went to school. A regular economics degree includes Econometrics, old boy. I obtained my undergrad Economics degree from a well-known department with prominent faculty. Grad courses in econometrics, international trade, international finance, the usual job offers.... that is enough information for you. Just reading your posts tells me everything I need to know about your education. Edited February 10, 2023 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 3 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: 1 hour ago, TailingsPond said: I laugh at "grid strain" for EV's. Around here the winter is so cold people have to plug in their gasoline cars and it doesn't even charge the battery. Block heaters are a gigantic waste of energy. Diesel trucks run so poorly in the extreme cold the drivers often just leave them idling rather than risk turning them off and having them fail to restart. Booster cables are in everyone's trunk... Let us praise fossil fuels and its reliability! How could you have grid strain without universal EVs? I guess no one gets the point, which is a simple one. And EV range in cold weather is pathetic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,375 DL February 10, 2023 1 hour ago, TailingsPond said: Try telling the young that their lives will play out like their parents did... Your "get a job, get married, buy a house, have kids, retire, die" fantasy is out-of-date. You are out of touch, getting a job, making money, traveling never get old. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 17 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: You are out of touch, getting a job, making money, traveling never get old. You skipped a couple steps there Clark Griswold; enjoy your long family road trip. Travelling will continue, just not in your crappy gas guzzler. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 468 GE February 10, 2023 25 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: And EV range in cold weather is pathetic. Do you own booster cables? Some range is greater than none, do you not agree? Fact is fossil fuel vehicles rely on batteries too and often require additional heating to work. People literally build little houses for their cars to keep them warm; they are called garages. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,608 RP February 10, 2023 7 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Rebuilding the electrical system to accommodate a proposed universal EV planet is massively expensive, don't let anyone kid you on that score. I never said it wasnt, but if you want America to grow and remain the hegemon you will have to repair, improve, expand your power grid regardless of what types of powergen go into it. If you stand still it will become even more unreliable and intermiittent, your economy and well being will suffer and you'll be poorer in any case, so which do you prefer? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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