Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 10, 2021 Just now, Ecocharger said: Famous last words...electricity demands means more coal. Smokestacks on a cloudy day. acilo/iStock photo. The operator of the second largest coal-fired power plant in Maryland announced that the plant will retire next year, which is five years earlier than previously announced. GenOn Holdings plans to shut down two of its 50-year-old coal units at Morgantown Generating Station in Charles County by June 2022. The two coal units together have a capacity of 1,229 megawatts of power. Maryland consumes about 60 million megawatts each year. In December, the company announced that it would cease coal operations by 2027, so this is a substantially accelerated timetable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 10, 2021 EIA has reported it expects 25 GW of coal generation capacity will retire over the next four years, a figure which does not include retirements announced since the beginning of this year. Research analysts have said as much as 50 GW of coal capacity could retire by the middle of this decade, leaving the country with about 175 GW of coal-fired generation capacity. https://www.powermag.com/coal-shipments-to-power-sector-at-lowest-level-in-14-years/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 10, 2021 54 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said: Smokestacks on a cloudy day. acilo/iStock photo. The operator of the second largest coal-fired power plant in Maryland announced that the plant will retire next year, which is five years earlier than previously announced. GenOn Holdings plans to shut down two of its 50-year-old coal units at Morgantown Generating Station in Charles County by June 2022. The two coal units together have a capacity of 1,229 megawatts of power. Maryland consumes about 60 million megawatts each year. In December, the company announced that it would cease coal operations by 2027, so this is a substantially accelerated timetable. Dropping like flies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: Smokestacks on a cloudy day. acilo/iStock photo. The operator of the second largest coal-fired power plant in Maryland announced that the plant will retire next year, which is five years earlier than previously announced. GenOn Holdings plans to shut down two of its 50-year-old coal units at Morgantown Generating Station in Charles County by June 2022. The two coal units together have a capacity of 1,229 megawatts of power. Maryland consumes about 60 million megawatts each year. In December, the company announced that it would cease coal operations by 2027, so this is a substantially accelerated timetable. Jay, you are the king of anecdotal reports. I look at the big picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: EIA has reported it expects 25 GW of coal generation capacity will retire over the next four years, a figure which does not include retirements announced since the beginning of this year. Research analysts have said as much as 50 GW of coal capacity could retire by the middle of this decade, leaving the country with about 175 GW of coal-fired generation capacity. https://www.powermag.com/coal-shipments-to-power-sector-at-lowest-level-in-14-years/ Like most projections and predictions about energy, stay tuned for daily updates and revisions. We have already seen the new guys in Washington deep six the idea of gasoline taxes, went over like a lead balloon. If EVs come into play in a big way, coal will be needed, new coal-burning technology, not the old dirty type which are now being laid to rest. Probably a good thing. Those "50 year-old units" are outdated. Edited July 11, 2021 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Like most projections and predictions about energy, stay tuned for daily updates and revisions. I've been giving you the daily updates, you call them anecdotes. Michigan Utility Trading Coal for Gas-Fired Electric Plants July 8, 2021 Consumers Energy, Michigan’s second-largest power provider, will quit burning coal to produce electricity by 2025 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said: I've been giving you the daily updates, you call them anecdotes. Michigan Utility Trading Coal for Gas-Fired Electric Plants July 8, 2021 Consumers Energy, Michigan’s second-largest power provider, will quit burning coal to produce electricity by 2025 I am looking at the big picture going forward , Jay, China and India are building the new technology coal-burning facilities to power the EVs along Chinese roads, and retiring the old toxic-emission technology of coal-burning. A win for everyone. We have already seen the new guys in Washington deep six the idea of gasoline taxes, went over like a lead balloon. If EVs come into play in a big way, coal will be needed, new coal-burning technology, not the old dirty type which are now being laid to rest. Probably a good thing. Those "50 year-old units" ON WHICH YOU CONCENTRATE YOUR ANECDOTAL REPORTS are outdated. Edited 25 minutes ago by Ecocharger Edited July 11, 2021 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: I am looking at the big picture going forward , Jay, China and India are building the new technology coal-burning facilities to power the EVs along Chinese roads, and retiring the old toxic-emission technology of coal-burning. A win for everyone. We have already seen the new guys in Washington deep six the idea of gasoline taxes, went over like a lead balloon. If EVs come into play in a big way, coal will be needed, new coal-burning technology, not the old dirty type which are now being laid to rest. Probably a good thing. Those "50 year-old units" ON WHICH YOU CONCENTRATE YOUR ANECDOTAL REPORTS are outdated. Edited 25 minutes ago by Ecocharger US coal is the subject of the discussion. We have exactly one of the new technology ultra supercritical coal plants. No more are being built. Since we agree that the old tech needs to be removed and we aren't building anymore of any kind then we agree that coal will be down to one US plant in no time. Sounds fine to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said: US coal is the subject of the discussion. We have exactly one of the new technology ultra supercritical coal plants. No more are being built. Since we agree that the old tech needs to be removed and we aren't building anymore of any kind then we agree that coal will be down to one US plant in no time. Sounds fine to me. No more are CURRENTLY being built, Jay, but as you know plans can change. The new guys in D.C. were planning to levy huge taxes on gasoline, but those plans have just been scrapped, as the political realities OUTWEIGHED the philosophical commitments to Green Revolution. Now the new administration is calling out for OPEC to ramp up oil production to supply the American car driver at the gas pump. Reality is beginning to set in and change the priorities of the Revolution. Look for coal to follow the same path, with D.C. pointing out the new non-toxic emissions of the new coal technology, and providing cheaper electricity for the American consumer. Such is the way politics works. Reality trumps (excuse the word) philosophy. Edited July 11, 2021 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ecocharger said: I am looking at the big picture going forward , Jay, China and India are building the new technology coal-burning facilities to power the EVs along Chinese roads, and retiring the old toxic-emission technology of coal-burning. A win for everyone. We have already seen the new guys in Washington deep six the idea of gasoline taxes, went over like a lead balloon. If EVs come into play in a big way, coal will be needed, new coal-burning technology, not the old dirty type which are now being laid to rest. Probably a good thing. Those "50 year-old units" ON WHICH YOU CONCENTRATE YOUR ANECDOTAL REPORTS are outdated. Edited 25 minutes ago by Ecocharger What's "new" with coal burning tech? As far as I know, it is increased main steam conditions. 50 year old = Main Steam 3505 psia @ 1050 degrees F -1050 degrees F reheat, about 40% efficiency. ADVANCED Ultra supercritical now Main Steam 4790 psia @ 1200 degrees F - 1240 degrees F reheat, about 48% efficient. Now, what's new?? Eddystone Unit #1 (about 1960, 60 years ago), Main Steam 5000 psia, 1200 degree F -1050 degrees F first RH, 1050 degrees F second reheat. About 45% efficient. They are just making them bigger, with better metallurgy. And extra "mufflers" to treat flue gas (which increases cost/MWh and increases house power usage as well). And, nobody in the US is buying any... Edited July 11, 2021 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 1 minute ago, turbguy said: What's "new" with coal burning tech? As far as I know, it is increased main steam conditions. 50 year old = Main Steam 3505 psia @ 1050 degrees F -1050 degrees F reheat, about 40% efficiency. ADVANCED Ultra supercritical now Main Steam 4790 psia @ 1200 degrees F - 1240 degrees F reheat, about 48% efficient. Now, what's new?? Eddystone Unit #1 (about 1960, 70 years ago), Main Steam 5000 psia, 1200 degree F -1050 degrees F first RH, 1050 degrees F second reheat. About 45% efficient. They are just making them bigger, with better metallurgy. And, nobody in the US is buying any... The critical point is that the new coal technology has pushed toxic emissions to near zero. However, most coal facilities use old technology, which is problematic for emissions. Logical conclusion: a new age for coal is around the corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: The critical point is that the new coal technology has pushed toxic emissions to near zero. However, most coal facilities use old technology, which is problematic for emissions. Logical conclusion: a new age for coal is around the corner. You know that the "new tech" was included/back-fitted on a whole lot of those retiring plants, no? Replaced burners, added ESP's/baghouses, added SCR's, added lime injection, what's NEW??? Unless there are "better mufflers" out there... and those STILL require chemistry supplies, waste disposal, and significant house power to operate. Power Generation that emits no operational waste, uses no water, and requires no fuel. Logical conclusion: a new age for renewables is right around the corner Edited July 11, 2021 by turbguy 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ecocharger said: Logical conclusion: a new age for coal is around the corner. IF the US every gets into that "new coal tech", it will take at least 8 years from "letters of intent" to operation. Not exactly "around the corner". Even then, that would require building them on brownfield sites, tear down most of the old plant, erect new. Built there, you have existing water supply, existing rail/barge infrastructure, existing coal storage and handling, existing transmission infrastructure, existing personnel, and perhaps existing permits. Mine-mouth plants will probably be the last to close, since fuel transportation costs are REALLY low. Edited July 11, 2021 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 1 hour ago, turbguy said: You know that the "new tech" was included/back-fitted on a whole lot of those retiring plants, no? Replaced burners, added ESP's/baghouses, added SCR's, added lime injection, what's NEW??? Unless there are "better mufflers" out there... and those STILL require chemistry supplies, waste disposal, and significant house power to operate. Power Generation that emits no operational waste, uses no water, and requires no fuel. Logical conclusion: a new age for renewables is right around the corner New structures add nothing to efficiency? Hard to believe that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, turbguy said: IF the US every gets into that "new coal tech", it will take at least 8 years from "letters of intent" to operation. Not exactly "around the corner". Even then, that would require building them on brownfield sites, tear down most of the old plant, erect new. Built there, you have existing water supply, existing rail/barge infrastructure, existing coal storage and handling, existing transmission infrastructure, existing personnel, and perhaps existing permits. Mine-mouth plants will probably be the last to close, since fuel transportation costs are REALLY low. China and India are already getting into it, U.S. will not be far behind. Given the rapid about-face on gasoline by the folks in D.C., would not be surprised to see U.S. embrace the new coal age, especially if EVs need more electricity to keep running. Edited July 11, 2021 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: New structures add nothing to efficiency? Hard to believe that. Not without increasing thermodynamic inputs (higher working fluid temperatures). Perhaps a percent or two with new 3D blading, AI controls and such (which could all be back-fitted). Those new coal emission technologies actually REDUCE plant efficiency! Edited July 11, 2021 by turbguy 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: New structures add nothing to efficiency? Hard to believe that. HaHa, you really have no clue what is going on or how any of this technology works do you? Those technologies all decrease efficiency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: China and India are already getting into it, U.S. will not be far behind. Given the rapid about-face on gasoline by the folks in D.C., would not be surprised to see U.S. embrace the new coal age, especially if EVs need more electricity to keep running. There's plenty of off-peak power available to charge EV's. China and India don't seem to care about some externalities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 9 minutes ago, turbguy said: Not without increasing thermodynamic inputs (higher working fluid temperatures). Perhaps a percent or two with new 3D blading, AI controls and such (which could all be back-fitted). Those new coal emission technologies actually REDUCE plant efficiency! With new structural engineering embodied in the plants, I would expect an improvement in efficiency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, turbguy said: There's plenty of off-peak power available to charge EV's. China and India don't seem to care about some externalities. How many EVs are out there now? A smattering, and if you build up there will be a huge drain on electrical capacity....need more coal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 11, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: How many EVs are out there now? A smattering, and if you build up there will be a huge drain on electrical capacity....need more coal. In the US we already have enough excess electric generation capacity during off peak hours to charge hundreds of millions of EVs. Edited July 11, 2021 by Jay McKinsey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,489 July 11, 2021 (edited) This shows how EVs charge during off peak but require no more than existing generation capacity: https://theconversation.com/switching-to-electric-vehicles-could-save-the-us-billions-but-timing-is-everything-106227 Edited July 11, 2021 by Jay McKinsey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,391 July 11, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ecocharger said: With new structural engineering embodied in the plants, I would expect an improvement in efficiency. Perhaps there have been advances that don't involve higher temperatures that I am not aware of. The peak efficiencies for the Carnot cycle were achieved in the 1960's. Recent work only adds a point or two with 3D flow modeling/advanced materials, then takes it away with the addition of "environmental controls". When steam plants achieve operating temps that come close to CT's firing temps, THEN we can talk. I am open to any evidence you can find. I've been reading POWER for over 40 years, and have seen nothing to brag about. Edited July 11, 2021 by turbguy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 11 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: In the US we already have enough excess electric generation capacity during off peak hours to charge hundreds of millions of EVs. "Off peak"? Who wants to charge "off-peak"? California seems to be having problems with all that excess electricity, right? No need to ration or go down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,374 DL July 11, 2021 10 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: This shows how EVs charge during off peak but require no more than existing generation capacity: https://theconversation.com/switching-to-electric-vehicles-could-save-the-us-billions-but-timing-is-everything-106227 "Electricity needed for EVs"....how do they calculate that. Which year for the EV numbers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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