GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Eric Gagen + 713]

2 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Your post is about gasoline shortages at gas stations in the UK not the whole of Europe. Of course you have to change the subject since you were caught fibbing.

 

The rest of Europe is about to be in a heating crisis, (and some places electricity) but that’s because the Russians have them in a hammerlock over natural gas supplies.  

[specinho + 440]

On 9/18/2021 at 5:25 AM, Wombat1 said:

I read the article, but you clearly failed to read the one that I provided. If you did, you would realise that it is in the interest of oil&gas companies to manipulate the market wherever possible and blame the green energy transition for the resulting high prices for their

• Edit

product so as to decrease the amount of renewable energy and further increase the price of their fossil fuels. Desperate stuff indeed. 

The energy might have been cheap for decades or for centuries. In addition, most, if not all, inventions on alternative energy, might be innovated by advanced countries enriched with oil and gas. For examples,

1. Swedish car manufacturer Volvo produced a concept bus powered by gas turbine engine that drives an electricity generator in the 80s or 90s.

2. flywheel motorcycles were created back in the 60s or 70s

3. fuel cells, is an idea of a Welsh judge back in 1838. The author for this section of article in a magazine claimed it is able to solve limitation faced by all existing energy generating modes and it requires no battery to work well continuously.

etc

The market is in such a condition might be caused by overly smart politicians of the 21th century, born of easy lives, throughout the world. They are taught or commonly believe governments must spend to stimulate economy, reduce poverty, raise living standard etc. They half grasp the concept and apply it fully, exaggeratedly. When they are told money is not enough, they use the quickest method - tax. You would not believe you need to pay tax on a cup of 50 cents plain water or a dollar of toilet paper....... These smart government officers might be whom you should find out trick used to create such a mess from?

On 9/19/2021 at 4:51 AM, Boat said:

6-7 years ago wind and solar were very small in Australia. I thought the story was Aussie citizens ran into power shortages and power bills jumped. The blame was exports for the shortages in the nat gas market. I’m I remembering this wrong?

cooking oil is the same. Targeting on exporting cooking oil, the local prices increase more than 10 bucks (which is closed to 100%) in a few months. Not just that, the quality has also decreased for many popular brands.

On a side note, there is an oil company worthy of praise in a remote, small country, with coconut trees and the likes... It prioritizes local consumers by providing great quality of oil within economic prices and export something else per request. Thought this used to be the way, how things were done...?

Government intervention usually spoils the basic benefit of public who considered co-own the natural resources of a country. Conceptual change might be needed?

On 9/25/2021 at 2:53 AM, Eric Gagen said:

As for Texas:  We have a growing population, LOTS of wind and solar (wind is heavily utilized already, solar is just starting) and a very robust electrical demand led by heavy industries attracted by abundant cheap electricity.  Major industries include steel and other metal smelting, petroleum refining, fertilizer manufacturing, plastic manufacturing, etc.  These are all highly energy intensive.  

Many alternatives are available. Hasty action to enforce a particular new energy mode might not be urgently needed yet...... or no?

Edited September 26, 2021 by specinho

[turbguy + 1,397]

Why bother paying for fuel to burn, when you can get heat for free??

Edited September 26, 2021 by turbguy

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

On 9/25/2021 at 8:40 AM, turbguy said:

Of course you don't consume unsafe food.  That makes no sense. Some waste is unavoidable.  However, safe food wasted In the USA is about 1/3rd!

 

How dumb can city slickers be?  All that "wasted" food gets fed to pigs, chickens, dogs, cows, or get this, feeds the SOIL which grows MORE food... No SOIL, = VERY expensive food as you have to literally MINE the minerals with Energy of some form or another and then transport these minerals, spread them, etc instead of letting the fungi/bacteria get you the minerals which already exist in the soil/rock.  These fungi/bacteria require FOOD from get this... PHOTOSYNTHESIS of plants which drop said organic matter onto the ground and grown via their roots and decomposes.  

95% of Corn feeds cows and ethanol plants.

50%-->75% of other grains feeds pigs, chickens, pets, fish. 

Veggies not picked feed the soil

The "1/3" can only be attributed to fat people crapping the food out their arses instead of digesting it.

Edited September 26, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[turbguy + 1,397]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

How dumb can city slickers be?  All that "wasted" food gets fed to pigs, chickens, dogs, cows, or get this, feeds the SOIL which grows MORE food... No SOIL, = VERY expensive food as you have to literally MINE the minerals with Energy of some form or another and then transport these minerals, spread them, etc instead of letting the fungi/bacteria get you the minerals which already exist in the soil/rock.  These fungi/bacteria require FOOD from get this... PHOTOSYNTHESIS of plants which drop said organic matter onto the ground and grown via their roots and decomposes.  

95% of Corn feeds cows and ethanol plants.

50%-->75% of other grains feeds pigs, chickens, pets, fish. 

Veggies not picked feed the soil

The "1/3" can only be attributed to fat people crapping the food out their arses instead of digesting it.

I certainly agree with food waste being recycled post harvest.

The "1/3rd" comes from retail and consumers, well past the farmer/rancher.

 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

6 hours ago, specinho said:

 

Many alternatives are available. Hasty action to enforce a particular new energy mode might not be urgently needed yet...... or no?

??? Not sure I understand where you are coming from.  Nobody is enforcing a new energy mode, at least in Texas.  Wind and solar farms are going up for good old fashioned reasons:  the investors can make money.  The solar business in west Texas in particular is about to get really interesting.  It’s a very sunny and windy area and most of the current electric grid is powered by wind, and natural gas (in that order) it might be the first large scale section of a developed world grid to get the majority of its electricity from wind and solar within the next few years.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

4 hours ago, turbguy said:

Why bother paying for fuel to burn, when you can get heat for free??

Because it’s not free.  You have to put together the a heat gathering system, a heat piping system, insulation and end user heat exchangers to move the heat around.  In fact it’s so far from being free, that without special circumstances (large consistent need for heating in a compact space) that it’s not worth doing.  
 

I’ll go back to my personal example.  I burn ~ $150 in natural gas for heating each year.  The pipes and heat exchangers just from the property line to my house might cost $5,000 to install, which means that it would take ~ 35 years to pay for itself.  Problem is that the system will rust out before the 35 years is up, so it never pays for itself.  Account for the enormous amount of carbon emitted in manufacturing the steel for the pipes and heat exchangers and suddenly you realize that it’s actually bad for the environment to try to heat my house (and by extension my neighborhood and my city which has similar climates and costs) with ‘free’ heating.  
 

because it is not free.  

[Eric Gagen + 713]

4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

How dumb can city slickers be?  All that "wasted" food gets fed to pigs, chickens, dogs, cows, or get this, feeds the SOIL which grows MORE food... No SOIL, = VERY expensive food as you have to literally MINE the minerals with Energy of some form or another and then transport these minerals, spread them, etc instead of letting the fungi/bacteria get you the minerals which already exist in the soil/rock.  These fungi/bacteria require FOOD from get this... PHOTOSYNTHESIS of plants which drop said organic matter onto the ground and grown via their roots and decomposes.  

95% of Corn feeds cows and ethanol plants.

50%-->75% of other grains feeds pigs, chickens, pets, fish. 

Veggies not picked feed the soil

The "1/3" can only be attributed to fat people crapping the food out their arses instead of digesting it.

Got To agree with @turbguy on this one.  The 1/3rd is food that made it all the way to the supermarket or the wholesale distribution warehouse and THEN got thrown away.  It may not be a third.  There are different estimates out there.  Maybe it’s 20%. Maybe it’s 25%, but all attempts to assess it agree that it’s a huge amount.  
 

It’s food people buy, forget to eat and toss when it goes bad.  Food left uneaten at restaurants.  Pre cut fruits and vegetables and cakes and pies and bread thrown away at the end of the day so that new fresh ones can be made.  Meat that was for sale, and tossed without being bought, because it was priced wrong.  The list goes on, and none of this stuff goes toward any possible use.  It just goes into a landfill.

[turbguy + 1,397]

15 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

Because it’s not free.  You have to put together the a heat gathering system, a heat piping system, insulation and end user heat exchangers to move the heat around.  In fact it’s so far from being free, that without special circumstances (large consistent need for heating in a compact space) that it’s not worth doing.  
 

I’ll go back to my personal example.  I burn ~ $150 in natural gas for heating each year.  The pipes and heat exchangers just from the property line to my house might cost $5,000 to install, which means that it would take ~ 35 years to pay for itself.  Problem is that the system will rust out before the 35 years is up, so it never pays for itself.  Account for the enormous amount of carbon emitted in manufacturing the steel for the pipes and heat exchangers and suddenly you realize that it’s actually bad for the environment to try to heat my house (and by extension my neighborhood and my city which has similar climates and costs) with ‘free’ heating.  
 

because it is not free.  

I agree that capital costs are involved in heating a home/residential water (with any system) is involved.   As is system maintenance.

Beyond that, you use no fuel.

Here in Wyoming, at -20 F on a sunny day, a standard solar water/glycol panel will easily reach boiling without sufficient system flow and control.  On a series of cloudy day's, back-up is indeed required.

BTW, you typically don't use steel pipe (although you could).  Copper is typical, as are engineering plastics.

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Your post is about gasoline shortages at gas stations in the UK due to a lack of truck drivers which is widely known to be caused by Brexit. Your post is not about the whole of Europe. Of course you have to change the subject since you were caught fibbing.

 

It all belongs to the big picture of energy shortage in Europe. Congratulations.

And please read the posts I linked you to about British gasoline before you do your usual jumping to the wrong conclusions. It's getting a little old, Jay.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

Europe is caught up in the first major energy crisis caused by the Green Dream panic, which has forced governments to abandon rational planning and go haywire with irrational climate plans.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/Europe-Must-Act-To-Avert-An-Energy-Crisis-This-Winter.html

"Industries across Europe are scaling back operations due to record natural gas and power prices, threatening to deal a blow to the post-COVID recovery. Fertilizer and ammonia production in Europe has been curtailed as “downstream European gas markets suffered further financial pain with new record spot gas highs” this week, Ben Samuel at Independent Commodity Intelligence Services (ICIS) noted on Thursday. CF Industries, a manufacturer of hydrogen and nitrogen products, said last week that it was halting operations at both its Billingham and Ince manufacturing complexes in the UK due to high natural gas prices. The Billingham plant makes carbon dioxide (CO2)—an essential supply to the food sector. So, the UK government secured a short-term deal with the company, which produces 60 percent of the UK’s CO2, to ensure the continued supply to businesses. “Industrial shutdowns will reduce demand, helping limit further upside to prices. Switching from gas to coal in the European power mix also cuts gas demand, but this can then be counter-balanced by increased emissions prices that prompt switching back to gas,” ICIS’s Alex Froley wrote this week. The gas crunch and price spike showed once again that Europe—and everyone pushing for ‘no more fossil fuels ASAP’—should consider market realities before indulging in ‘100-percent renewables’ fantasies. The International Energy Agency (IEA)—which has suggested that a net-zero by 2050 world wouldn’t need new oil and gas investment after 2021—said this week, commenting on the surging gas and power price: “The links between electricity and gas markets are not going to go away anytime soon. Gas remains an important tool for balancing electricity markets in many regions today.”  "

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

The IEA has done an about-face in light of the current energy crisis gripping Europe and threatening the rest of the world.

https://www.iea.org/news/statement-on-recent-developments-in-natural-gas-and-electricity-markets

"European electricity prices have climbed to their highest levels in over a decade in recent weeks, rising above 100 euros per megawatt-hour in many markets. In Germany and Spain, for example, prices in September have been around three or four times the averages seen in 2019 and 2020. This increase has been driven by the surge in gas, coal and carbon prices in Europe. The strong rise in gas prices led electricity providers in a number of European markets to switch from gas to coal for power generation – a trend that would have been more pronounced if it had not been for the increase in the price of carbon emission allowances on the European market. “Today’s situation is a reminder to governments, especially as we seek to accelerate clean energy transitions, of the importance of secure and affordable energy supplies – particularly for the most vulnerable people in our societies,” Dr Birol said. “Well-managed clean energy transitions are a solution to the issues that we are seeing in gas and electricity markets today – not the cause of them.” The links between electricity and gas markets are not going to go away anytime soon. Gas remains an important tool for balancing electricity markets in many regions today. As clean energy transitions advance on a path towards net zero emissions, global gas demand will start to decline, but it will remain an important component of electricity security. This is especially the case in countries with large seasonal variations in electricity demand."

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

47 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

??? Not sure I understand where you are coming from.  Nobody is enforcing a new energy mode, at least in Texas.  Wind and solar farms are going up for good old fashioned reasons:  the investors can make money.  The solar business in west Texas in particular is about to get really interesting.  It’s a very sunny and windy area and most of the current electric grid is powered by wind, and natural gas (in that order) it might be the first large scale section of a developed world grid to get the majority of its electricity from wind and solar within the next few years.

We heard that last year, before the system failed spectacularly...that is the trouble with solar/wind, they depend on the undependable. They just failed recently in Europe. Case closed.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

4 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

It all belongs to the big picture of energy shortage in Europe. Congratulations.

No it doesn't. The truck driver shortage is completely independent and would exist regardless of what else is happening in the energy markets. But again we know that truth doesn't matter to you.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

3 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

We heard that last year, before the system failed spectacularly...that is the trouble with solar/wind, they depend on the undependable. They just failed recently in Europe. Case closed.

It is the natural gas market that has failed. 

On the supply side, liquefied natural gas (LNG) production worldwide has been lower than expected due to a series of unplanned outages and delays across the globe and delayed maintenance from 2020.

Russia ... exports to Europe are down from their 2019 level.

“Well-managed clean energy transitions are a solution to the issues that we are seeing in gas and electricity markets today – not the cause of them.”

https://www.iea.org/news/statement-on-recent-developments-in-natural-gas-and-electricity-markets

 

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

On 9/24/2021 at 1:54 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

Many of those predictions say "If we don't change, this will happen." Guess what? We changed our behavior, that is why the predictions didn't come true. Some of the best examples are in regard to air pollution. All across he developed world strict air pollution laws began going into effect in the early 70's. 

Jay, you got it wrong again, those wildly wrong predictions from 1970 by Green Dreamers were the smartest of the eco-protesters...just think about how wildly wrong the dumb ones are today.

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

14 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No it doesn't. The truck driver shortage is completely independent and would exist regardless of what else is happening in the energy markets. But again we know that truth doesn't matter to you.

Jay, show me your objection, I don't see your basis for complaint in the posts above, which post is it you don't like?...you're not making this stuff up again, are you?

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

12 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It is the natural gas market that has failed. 

On the supply side, liquefied natural gas (LNG) production worldwide has been lower than expected due to a series of unplanned outages and delays across the globe and delayed maintenance from 2020.

Russia ... exports to Europe are down from their 2019 level.

“Well-managed clean energy transitions are a solution to the issues that we are seeing in gas and electricity markets today – not the cause of them.”

https://www.iea.org/news/statement-on-recent-developments-in-natural-gas-and-electricity-markets

 

Jay, your "solution" is worse than the disease. The current energy crisis is caused by Green Dreamers shutting down basic energy supplies. Plus the failure of wind and solar energy sources in Europe due to no wind and no sun. You don't have to be a genius to figure that one out.

All this material I provided you in the links above, I suggest that you start reading them.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Eric Gagen + 713]

38 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I agree that capital costs are involved in heating a home/residential water (with any system) is involved.   As is system maintenance.

Beyond that, you use no fuel.

Here in Wyoming, at -20 F on a sunny day, a standard solar water/glycol panel will easily reach boiling without sufficient system flow and control.  On a series of cloudy day's, back-up is indeed required.

BTW, you typically don't use steel pipe (although you could).  Copper is typical, as are engineering plastics.

I hate to break it to you, but copper and engineered plastic are even more expensive than steel.  By an order of magnitude.  Also, most people don’t live in places even remotely as cold as Wyoming.  

Edited September 27, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:02 PM, Ecocharger said:

Uh oh, the Green Dreamers in Britain have come up against the realities of an energy crisis, courtesy of the misguided energy plans of panicked climate alarmists. 

This is what happens when people stop questioning and debating important issues, and blindly follow politically oriented disaster plans. Attempting to fight an unproven future disaster by creating a certain current disaster is a poor strategy.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/some-shell-gas-stations-run-out-fuel-uk-2021-09-24/

"Royal Dutch Shell (RDSa.L) said on Friday it was seeing more demand at some of its fuel stations in Britain as worries about lorry driver shortages prompted drivers to fill up their tanks. "We are adapting our delivery schedules to ensure sufficient supplies for our customers," a spokesperson said, adding that rising demand "may in some instances result in larger queues." A handful of Shell gas stations are thought to have run out of fuel. Shell has around 1,000 stations across Britain. BP (BP.L) said it was prioritising fuel deliveries in Britain to sites with the highest demand and seeking to minimise the amount of time its petrol and diesel pumps were empty."

Maybe you should read your own posts. 

more demand at some of its fuel stations in Britain as worries about lorry driver shortages prompted drivers to fill up their tanks.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

4 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Jay, your "solution" is worse than the disease. The current energy crisis is caused by Green Dreamers shutting down basic energy supplies. Plus the failure of wind and solar energy sources in Europe due to no wind and no sun. You don't have to be a genius to figure that one out.

All this material I provided you in the links above, I suggest that you start reading them.

I did. Those quotes are from the link you provided.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

22 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

We heard that last year, before the system failed spectacularly...that is the trouble with solar/wind, they depend on the undependable. They just failed recently in Europe. Case closed.

Everything failed. I live here.   Nuclear plants failed.  Natural gas failed.  Wind failed. The data doesn’t back up any assertion that the massive failure this February was cause by renewable resources.  In any case my statement about the massive level of wind and solar power in west Texas isn’t an opinion - it’s a fact.  And we will see how it goes. 

[turbguy + 1,397]

4 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

Everything failed. I live here.   Nuclear plants failed.  Natural gas failed.  Wind failed. The data doesn’t back up any assertion that the massive failure this February was cause by renewable resources.  In any case my statement about the massive level of wind and solar power in west Texas isn’t an opinion - it’s a fact.  And we will see how it goes. 

I agree, it's a fact.

An impressive amount of solar is in the pipeline planning for ERCOT.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:29 PM, turbguy said:

While I hear where you are coming from, throwing away half the energy makes no physical sense (except that it is thermodynamics at work).

It is similar to wasting food.  We got plenty and it's cheap, so why not?

That is like saying we have to capture all the solar rays that strike the earth or all the wind or all the tides. We get what we need for human use. The rest is wasted. We should avoid wasting energy where it makes sense like leaky pipes and flaring. I have always made a big issue about that. I hear Texas is finally moving on it. 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/texas-finally-taking-fight-against-200000951.html

https://blogs.edf.org/energyexchange/2021/09/15/as-texas-fails-to-stop-flaring-epa-must-act/

Edited September 27, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[Boat + 1,315]

Climeworks begins operations of Orca, the world’s largest direct air capture and CO₂ storage plant