Battery storage 30% cheaper than new gas peaker plants, Australian study finds

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Uh, frankly that is impossible.  AS EVERY single powerline is an antenna.  Even end point systems are near impossible to EMP shield without horrendous expenditures as this means the distribution centers logistics hubs must all Be EMP shielded --> That means humans bangin away on computers... 

EMP Engineering is HORRIFICALLY expensive and then if you have to have stupid lazy humans involved in said system?  Not realistic unless everything inside the buildings said stupid lazy humans are banging away on are EMP shielded itself.

Not even the Military is shielded from EMP my friend.  Military has SOME, uh hem, SOME systems which are EMP shielded like Fighter aircraft.  Every single tanker for said fighter aircraft is bare ass naked.  Every Logistics center is bare ass naked to EMP for instance as it is 100% computer/internet based and no one has built an EMP shielded computer in ~4 decades(Ok maybe when they were recently doing some upgrades to the Minuteman III computers they may have made one, I do not know).  Anything with a transistor (includes solar panels by the way) and Poof... EMP = gonzo.  Anyways, not a single computer/monitor in the Pentagon is shielded or any military base, and yet you want CIVILIAN infrastructure to be shielded?  Time to buy 1980's tractors and 1970's cars. Not even the Logistics of the military is shielded... No logistics, no military.  Even warships are horrifically exposed to EMP.  1 open door/hatch, improper maintenance on a seal because someone wants some fresh air or is looking at the ships wake or is power washing the deck, and poof... all internal systems on ship die.  And you want civilian infrastructure shielded?  🙄

So you are saying we are all f----d! Is that where the subject ends for you? You do realize that most of the population would (according to estimates) die without our electrical system. The monetary system would crash, agriculture, distribution, food, water, sewage, fuel, etc. I think it is worth planning for and is a hell of a lot more important than global warming theory. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

12 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

So you are saying we are all f----d! Is that where the subject ends for you? You do realize that most of the population would (according to estimates) die without our electrical system. The monetary system would crash, agriculture, distribution, food, water, sewage, fuel, etc. I think it is worth planning for and is a hell of a lot more important than global warming theory. 

Yes, we are 100% FUBAR'd in a nuclear war or even one using conventional EMP devices powered by explosives and it has only gotten FAR FAR worse since the 60's.

Since EMP shielding is:

• Near impossible to design,
• Near impossible to manufacture/certify
• Near impossible to keep said shielding/certified in place for long periods of time
• And IMPOSSIBLE when you have to have human interaction daily or maintenance on said systems because we are talking a total system here that is ALL interconnected and it only takes 1!, uh hem, 1! worker who is lazy, inept, ignorant, or just tired that day to NOT do the correct thing by being observant and notice the seal has a nick(that is right all that is required to destroy said EMP shielding is a nick in the seal) in 'x' and say instead, nah, I'll just wait another day, week, month, year, or never(as I would look bad on my yearly report) before reporting said nick in said seal which invalidates ALL the shielding....

The only solution is:

1. Turn everything to DC(possible), Great expense, but possible and pretty much means all solar flares become meaningless
2. Get rid of ALL transistors(Uh, a certain Eurythmics song... Sweet Dreams are made of these... comes to mind)
3. Invent micro Tube Amplifiers to replace transistors(Go back to 1970's computing level in other words)--> Sure, like that will happen.
4. Replace all infrastructure which has been built in the last ~100 years.  See point #2

 

[turbguy + 1,391]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Brookings research,

"

"As Brookings, a nonprofit public policy organization, contributor Samantha Gross notes:

"The energy density of fossil fuels is particularly important in the transportation sector. A vehicle needs to carry its fuel around as it travels, so the weight and volume of that fuel are key. Electric vehicles are a much-touted solution for replacing oil, but they are not perfect for all uses. Pound for pound, gasoline or diesel fuel contain about 40 times as much energy as a state-of-the-art battery. On the other hand, electric motors are much more efficient than internal combustion engines and electric vehicles are simpler mechanically, with many fewer moving parts. These advantages make up for some of the battery's weight penalty, but an electric vehicle will still be heavier than a similar vehicle running on fossil fuel. For vehicles that carry light loads and can refuel often, like passenger cars, this penalty isn't a big deal. But for aviation, maritime shipping, or long-haul trucking, where the vehicle must carry heavy loads for long distances without refueling, the difference in energy density between fossil fuels and batteries is a huge challenge, and electric vehicles just don't meet the need."

Also "Over the 20th century, the energy system transformed from one in which fossil energy was used directly into one in which an important portion of fossil fuels are used to generate electricity. The proportion used in electricity generation varies by fuel. Because oil — an energy-dense liquid — is so fit-for-purpose in transport, little of it goes to electricity; in contrast, roughly 63% of coal produced worldwide is used to generate electricity. Methods of generating electricity that don’t rely on fossil fuels, like nuclear and hydroelectric generation, are also important parts of the system in many areas. However, fossil fuels are still the backbone of the electricity system, generating 64% of today’s global supply."

Until someone determines how a battery can also form the STRUCTURE of a vehicle, battery weight will be a negative. 

If we could store charge in the frame, panels, glass, seats, etc, then there would be, in effect, "weightless" batteries.

But...I'm not holding my breath.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

12 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Yes, we are 100% FUBAR'd in a nuclear war or even one using conventional EMP devices powered by explosives and it has only gotten FAR FAR worse since the 60's.

Since EMP shielding is:

• Near impossible to design,
• Near impossible to manufacture/certify
• Near impossible to keep said shielding/certified in place for long periods of time
• And IMPOSSIBLE when you have to have human interaction daily or maintenance on said systems because we are talking a total system here that is ALL interconnected and it only takes 1!, uh hem, 1! worker who is lazy, inept, ignorant, or just tired that day to NOT do the correct thing by being observant and notice the seal has a nick(that is right all that is required to destroy said EMP shielding is a nick in the seal) in 'x' and say instead, nah, I'll just wait another day, week, month, year, or never(as I would look bad on my yearly report) before reporting said nick in said seal which invalidates ALL the shielding....

The only solution is:

1. Turn everything to DC(possible), Great expense, but possible and pretty much means all solar flares become meaningless
2. Get rid of ALL transistors(Uh, a certain Eurythmics song... Sweet Dreams are made of these... comes to mind)
3. Invent micro Tube Amplifiers to replace transistors(Go back to 1970's computing level in other words)--> Sure, like that will happen.
4. Replace all infrastructure which has been built in the last ~100 years.  See point #2

 

Thanks for your answers. I guess we will live with the sword of Damocles over our heads. Especially with military satellites overhead. I had no idea how difficult it would be. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

9 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Until someone determines how a battery can also form the STRUCTURE of a vehicle, battery weight will be a negative. 

If we could store charge in the frame, panels, glass, seats, etc, then there would be, in effect, "weightless" batteries.

But...I'm not holding my breath.

Unless the battery components themselves have a high tensile/shear/compressive strength they will never be made into the structure.  No such battery exists.  Not even solid state prototype batteries.

[turbguy + 1,391]

3 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Unless the battery components themselves have a high tensile/shear/compressive strength they will never be made into the structure.  No such battery exists.  Not even solid state prototype batteries.

Just dreaming...someday...

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

Hrmm let me try embedding one of the worlds great songs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMFqkcPYcg

Gah... not working

Edited May 24, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

36 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Thanks for your answers. I guess we will live with the sword of Damocles over our heads. Especially with military satellites overhead. I had no idea how difficult it would be. 

Well, I guess I kinda lied... There is a solution... Become dwarves and start tunneling underground.  Moving EVERYTHING below the surface of the earth and have zero windows anywhere, recycled air, and double sets of doors both shielded. As if this will ever happen.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

23 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Nice ideas but how does that supply grid protection against EMP's solar flares, and local redundancy? Another question is how would wind turbines, individual off grid solar, connected solar do with EMP and sola flares? How could they be protected? Yet again, do we have ANY real protection in our system? Do we just wait for China to destroy our entire energy system  and then hope to destroy theirs? They will still be backed up by coal. Thoughts on real important issues? 

The existing electrical grid is vulnerable to EMP and mega-flares, and almost all of today's electronic devices are vulnerable to a large-enough EMP. This is completely independent of how the electricity is generated, green grey brown or black. If you knock out a significant portion of the grid, or if you knock out a significant portion of the electronic devices, our whole society will break down. Just think about the electronics and ignore the rest of the grid infrastructure. What happens if all of the electronic devices in your state are suddenly disabled irretrievably? This will kill your car, all the appliances in your house, the phone and internet, the systems that control the electrical grid, the natural gas pipeline system, the gasoline pipeline system, your pacemaker, all of the computers at the hospital, the grocery store, the bank, etc.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

19 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Unless the battery components themselves have a high tensile/shear/compressive strength they will never be made into the structure.  No such battery exists.  Not even solid state prototype batteries.

Yes, this bothered me when I kept hearing about Tesla's "structural battery". It turns out to be a terminology problem. An EV battery is a rack full  of modules, each of which comprises a bunch of cells, and all connected via conductors. The trick is to make the rack itself a part of the structure of the car. The modules, cells, and conductors are not  structural, they are just loaded directly onto a rack that is part of the frame of the car. This means that you cannot replace "the battery". You can however replace some or all of the modules. A vehicle with a structural battery could never be "recharged" by battery-swapping, because you cannot remove and replace the battery as a unit.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

23 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Well, I guess I kinda lied... There is a solution... Become dwarves and start tunneling underground.  Moving EVERYTHING below the surface of the earth and have zero windows anywhere, recycled air, and double sets of doors both shielded. As if this will ever happen.

If the only problems were EMP and mega-flares, you could also in some fantasy future shift to a completely non-electric civilization, sort of like the year 1900 but without telephone, telegraph, or radio, but with all the technologies pushed to the limit using what we have learned since then. You might even be able to create an opto-mechanical telegraph with fiber optics.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/23/2021 at 9:39 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Well, I guess I kinda lied... There is a solution... Become dwarves and start tunneling underground.  Moving EVERYTHING below the surface of the earth and have zero windows anywhere, recycled air, and double sets of doors both shielded. As if this will ever happen.

I think we already have underground bases in many areas. Probably some are shielded command centers. The question is what will be left to command. We need to focus on what is doable, not what is impossible. You can be sure that China and Russia have plans. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

On 5/24/2021 at 6:53 PM, Dan Clemmensen said:

If the only problems were EMP and mega-flares, you could also in some fantasy future shift to a completely non-electric civilization, sort of like the year 1900 but without telephone, telegraph, or radio, but with all the technologies pushed to the limit using what we have learned since then. You might even be able to create an opto-mechanical telegraph with fiber optics.

Why could you not have telephone, radio, computers?  Just means you have to use relay's and tube amplifiers, and today we can make VERY small tube amplifiers.   True, cell phones will be impossible, but everything else would be 1980 tech(early 80's not late 80's)

 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

2 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Why could you not have telephone, radio, computers?  Just means you have to use relay's and tube amplifiers, and today we can make VERY small tube amplifiers.   True, cell phones will be impossible, but everything else would be 1980 tech(early 80's not late 80's)

 

You need electricity to run the electronics. I think that an electrical grid is vulnerable to EMP even if there are no electronics. Perhaps you would be OK if all of the lines are buried.  Given a completely buried electrical system, it is not really all that difficult to harden a factory, just very expensive, so you could manufacture semiconductors. It's also not hard to EMP-harden a computer or other electronic device as long as it does not need radio. The result will be relatively clunky and expensive as it will have a metal case and an internal generator driven via a plastic driveshaft from an external hydraulic motor.  Data is via fiber optic links. Screens are via projectors.

[ChrisK Shaw + 11]

12 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I think we already have underground bases in many areas. Probably some are shielded command centers. The question is what will be left to command. We need to focus on what is doable, not what is impossible. You can be sure that China and Russia have plans. 

Yes, I was looking at some of the marketing info for NR Electric Co of China (www.nrec.com) and was shocked (pun intended) by the number of large DC transmission and distribution projects.  They seem to be working with state of the art MV and HV SiC inverter and converter technology LCC/DAB (I'm not electrical).  They seem to have started in the AC transmission VAR compensation space and migrated to DC due to the windfarm and SPV projects being in the middle of nowhere.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

On 5/23/2021 at 8:51 PM, turbguy said:

Until someone determines how a battery can also form the STRUCTURE of a vehicle, battery weight will be a negative. 

If we could store charge in the frame, panels, glass, seats, etc, then there would be, in effect, "weightless" batteries.

But...I'm not holding my breath.

@turbguy in addition to that, if the batteries themselves are the structure, you have a serious insulation, charging and power distribution problem:  how do you prevent the battery material from just 'grounding out' all over the place?  You have to have it encased in insulating material, which brings you right back to the excess material, and weight issue.  The other problem is that most of the weight of current battery systems is already in the 'mission critical' parts of the battery.  There ARE improvements to be made in the encasing materials, but they aren't the biggest problem with the overall battery weight - just as the plastic case isn't the driving force behind the weight of a lead acid battery.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[turbguy + 1,391]

32 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

@turbguy in addition to that, if the batteries themselves are the structure, you have a serious insulation, charging and power distribution problem:  how do you prevent the battery material from just 'grounding out' all over the place?  You have to have it encased in insulating material, which brings you right back to the excess material, and weight issue.  The other problem is that most of the weight of current battery systems is already in the 'mission critical' parts of the battery.  There ARE improvements to be made in the encasing materials, but they aren't the biggest problem with the overall battery weight - just as the plastic case isn't the driving force behind the weight of a lead acid battery.  

Just dreaming...

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:44 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

And IMPOSSIBLE when you have to have human interaction daily or maintenance on said systems because we are talking a total system here that is ALL interconnected and it only takes 1!, uh hem, 1! worker who is lazy, inept, ignorant, or just tired that day to NOT do the correct thing by being observant and notice the seal has a nick(that is right all that is required to destroy said EMP shielding is a nick in the seal) in 'x' and say instead, nah, I'll just wait another day, week, month, year, or never(as I would look bad on my yearly report) before reporting said nick in said seal which invalidates ALL the shielding....

Don't faraday cages protect against EMP? I've worked on a construction project for an un-named govt agency and the EMP protection for all the com wiring and apparatus's were all caged, either free standing or caged and encased in concrete if underground.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

1 hour ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Don't faraday cages protect against EMP? I've worked on a construction project for an un-named govt agency and the EMP protection for all the com wiring and apparatus's were all caged, either free standing or caged and encased in concrete if underground.

Like everything else in this world, nothing is a black or white, 0 or a 1. A cage around said wiring is only useful if the EMP is weak.  The end connections is actually where most of the EMP is radiated from/along.  There can't be any openings, IE ZERO heating/cooling lines vents going through or  cracks.  Every wire has to have a surge protector which blows which is also shielded.  Every cabinet must have a a full copper filled rubber seal if not double seals. 

Encased in Concrete has nothing to do with EMP, and probably has everything to do with ability to TAP into said wires and spy, but a cage which is grounded properly CAN stop weak EMP.  For instance every single ammunition bunker has ALL of its rebar welded together and grounded with a blast door sealed as described above for instance.  Now that I think about it, your "cages" are most likely for the same reason and have zero, zilch, nothing to do with EMP, but rather stopping someone from TAPPing into said COM wiring and sending a weak radio signal out. 

PS: Said wiring wasn't just a closed trough was it?  This is often how all wiring is done in commercial space anymore and has zero EMP protection.  Easy to install run wiring, and troubleshoot.  I love troughs. 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

PS: Said wiring wasn't just a closed trough was it?  This is often how all wiring is done in commercial space anymore and has zero EMP protection.  Easy to install run wiring, and troubleshoot.  I love troughs. 

No, schedule 80 PVC conduit from the look of it. The rebar job that encased the conduit was no joke, you couldn't see any anything through it. If I remember correctly there was a double layer of epoxy rebar woven together then cased in concrete.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

58 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

No, schedule 80 PVC conduit from the look of it. The rebar job that encased the conduit was no joke, you couldn't see any anything through it. If I remember correctly there was a double layer of epoxy rebar woven together then cased in concrete.

So, nothing to do with EMP, but if you bury something deep enough... 😃 Everything to do with anti spy, and epoxy coated rebar?  That stuff is banned in all structural applications... Obviously this was not structural and some contractor got a sweet deal on discontinued rebar or was using up his old stock of the junk.   

 

[Rob Plant + 2,605]

On 5/24/2021 at 3:06 AM, turbguy said:

Just dreaming...someday...

Dreaming is good as long as you have facilitators who can make them a reality.

There are companies working on trying to make graphene batteries as part of car body panels

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/graphene-batteries-supercapacitors

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/171909/graphene-battery-in-the-real-world-finally

Edited May 27, 2021 by Rob Plant

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

18 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

@turbguy in addition to that, if the batteries themselves are the structure, you have a serious insulation, charging and power distribution problem:  how do you prevent the battery material from just 'grounding out' all over the place?  You have to have it encased in insulating material, which brings you right back to the excess material, and weight issue.  The other problem is that most of the weight of current battery systems is already in the 'mission critical' parts of the battery.  There ARE improvements to be made in the encasing materials, but they aren't the biggest problem with the overall battery weight - just as the plastic case isn't the driving force behind the weight of a lead acid battery.  

As I said above, the problem is with the way the word "battery" is being used. In an EV, the "battery" is a rack full of modules and each module is a set set of cells. With a "structural battery", the rack is part of the structure of the car, and the modules are just loaded into this structural rack unit. The modules are not structural.   In real life most folks would call a module a "battery", and say that the EV has multiple batteries. BTW this sloppy terminology is not new. A WWII submarine had a "battery" consisting of one or more rooms full of lead-acid batteries. All of this confusion happens because the word "battery" actually means "collection of sub-units". A module is a collection of cells. An EV battery is a collection of modules. An artillery battery is a collection of artillery pieces.

To further confuse matters, the structural battery rack is one of two uses of the term "structural battery", and it is the one that is currently being implemented by Tesla.  The other use of the term is for more exotic applications where things like roof and side panels are somehow magically turned into batteries. I will believe that one only if it actually gets into production.

[Strangelovesurfing + 737]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, nothing to do with EMP, but if you bury something deep enough... 😃 Everything to do with anti spy, and epoxy coated rebar?  That stuff is banned in all structural applications... Obviously this was not structural and some contractor got a sweet deal on discontinued rebar or was using up his old stock of the junk.   

 

Lot's of epoxy covered rebar is used where I live. Corrosion levels are very high in the tropics.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:34 AM, ChrisK Shaw said:

Yes, I was looking at some of the marketing info for NR Electric Co of China (www.nrec.com) and was shocked (pun intended) by the number of large DC transmission and distribution projects.  They seem to be working with state of the art MV and HV SiC inverter and converter technology LCC/DAB (I'm not electrical).  They seem to have started in the AC transmission VAR compensation space and migrated to DC due to the windfarm and SPV projects being in the middle of nowhere.

Thanks for that. America has become a real laggard in preparing for worst case possible scenarios. China and, probably Russia are ahead of us in all such things. They are realists not head in the sand optimists. Being naive and hopeful is not a good defensive strategy!