turbguy

And now, hybrid electric locomotives...

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6 hours ago, markslawson said:

Jay - look, again, you don't seem to realise I spent a good part of my adult life looking at profit and loss statements and balance sheets. Now look at this full year accounting of costs for BNSF... fuel comes in fourth. But it wasn't even the point I was making about costs.. the point was not that fuel is an expense but whether the additional expenditure on this vastly more complicated train, not to mention the vast increases in use of scarce rare earths and the like, is worth the saving in fuel. Remember you have to update the whole fleet to get this 10-30 per cent saving on the total fuel bill listed, if it can be achieved. Rather than blindly support anything electric, maybe it might be better to take a step back and ask some hard questions. At least this time your argument made marginally more sense than usual. Leave it with you.   

Fuel prices were rock bottom in 2020. Totally irrelevant if fuel was 4th, it is still an extremely significant cost. With fuel prices back to normal or above their fuel costs will be higher. 

 You don't need to update the whole fleet, it is designed to work with existing locomotives. You really don't bother with the facts before coming up with your claims do you? 

Ultimately though I can tell you right now that battery costs are dropping rapidly and if the unit is still uneconomic today it won't be in a few years. But of course you are in complete denial of the decreasing battery cost curve. 

BNEF-Figure-1-Volume-weighted-average-pack-and-cell-price-split_WP.jpg

Also very exciting is that the FLX appears to be a perfect candidate for LFP batteries which already cost $20 less than the average shown in the graph. https://about.bnef.com/blog/battery-pack-prices-cited-below-100-kwh-for-the-first-time-in-2020-while-market-average-sits-at-137-kwh/

Other costs that it will save are pollution and pollution taxes. The reason it did its first test in the Central Valley is because that area suffers from extremely bad air quality. 

Your statement that this is a vastly more complicated train is absurd. Diesel locomotives are fantastically complicated with a zillion moving parts in their expensive engines, turbochargers and exhaust systems that all require expensive maintenance but are absent in a battery locomotive.

I presume you know that diesel electric locomotives already run on electricity. So inverters and electric motors are already part of the build.  But I am guessing you don't know that modern trains rely on dynamic braking as their primary breaking method. The locomotives produce prodigious amounts of electricity when they brake that is wasted as heat. Capturing it in this battery unit is as simple as plugging in a spare battery pack.  

Oh and of course with reduced maintenance they won't need as many employees, which is their top expense category.

So I think I will just keep right on supporting batteries, because I have looked at the evidence and asked the hard questions. Not ignored them as you do.

 

Edited by Jay McKinsey
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1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

So, How much do locomotives cost? A diesel locomotive could cost from $500,000-$2 million. While an electric locomotive could cost more than $6 million. Price depends on whether it is powered by AC or DC traction, how much horsepower it has, or what electronics it is equipped with.

I cannot help but think out loud here....4/5 times the investment and the same rate of return? The answer must lie in accelerated depreciation...Fuel costs are so low they offset the investment capitalization..perhaps a negative interest rate supplemented by unclesam? Perhaps transport cost being raised by a factor or four...after all it is green intensive.

I have always been a one to repurpose...a very trendy word these days. 

Does Rebuilding Locomotives Beat Buying New?

 

https://www.railwayage.com/mechanical/locomotives/does-rebuilding-locomotives-beat-buying-new/

 

The article you cite says the cost of a new diesel electric is $3 million. It says nothing about the cost of a battery electric.

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23 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The article you cite says the cost of a new diesel electric is $3 million. It says nothing about the cost of a battery electric.

Oops, this entire green deal is getting.. out there...twilight zone stuff. There are times I just shut down this was one of them..So let me correctly my shortcomings.

https://worldwiderails.com/how-much-do-locomotives-cost/#:~:text=While an electric locomotive could cost more than %246 million.&text=With simple modifications%2C it is,a rail company will own.

So, How much do locomotives cost? A diesel locomotive could cost from $500,000-$2 million. While an electric locomotive could cost more than $6 million. Price depends on whether it is powered by AC or DC traction, how much horsepower it has, or what electronics it is equipped with. 

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Just now, Eyes Wide Open said:

Oops, this entire green deal is getting.. out there...twilight zone stuff. There are times I just shut down this was one of them..So let me correctly my shortcomings.

https://worldwiderails.com/how-much-do-locomotives-cost/#:~:text=While an electric locomotive could cost more than %246 million.&text=With simple modifications%2C it is,a rail company will own.

So, How much do locomotives cost? A diesel locomotive could cost from $500,000-$2 million. While an electric locomotive could cost more than $6 million. Price depends on whether it is powered by AC or DC traction, how much horsepower it has, or what electronics it is equipped with. 

Those electric locomotives are high speed passenger engines with no batteries. Very different from the FLX freight engine. The article says

"electric locomotives tend to be priced higher than diesels, as the electric locomotives sometime require an entire redesign, while diesel locomotives tend to be built upon an existing framework."

The FLX battery electric engine uses the existing diesel electric framework. It is a standard diesel electric freight engine but instead of an engine it has a battery. 

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1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Those electric locomotives are high speed passenger engines with no batteries. Very different from the FLX freight engine. The article says

"electric locomotives tend to be priced higher than diesels, as the electric locomotives sometime require an entire redesign, while diesel locomotives tend to be built upon an existing framework."

The FLX battery electric engine uses the existing diesel electric framework. It is a standard diesel electric freight engine but instead of an engine it has a battery. 

Mr McKinsey it is not about the frame that I can assure you. Carry on your energy is well incredible

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(edited)

18 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Mr McKinsey it is not about the frame that I can assure you. Carry on your energy is well incredible

That is what your article says. What do you think it is? Remember, the locomotives they are speaking of do not have batteries.

Regardless, FLX units are driven by the cost of the battery. We don't know the exact cost today but we do know the price is falling and the FLX appears to be a prime candidate for LFP batteries which are already 15% lower than the avg. li ion cost.

Edited by Jay McKinsey

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1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

That is what your article says. What do you think it is? Remember, the locomotives they are speaking of do not have batteries.

Regardless, FLX units are driven by the cost of the battery. We don't know the exact cost today but we do know the price is falling and the FLX appears to be a prime candidate for LFP batteries which are already 15% lower than the avg. li ion cost.

You seem to throw batterys around like a drunken sailor and traction motors and AC distribution processing maybe wiring saftey codes standard's ahh yes those regenerative braking systems. Then there's the software Ohh perhaps the testing process for all these systems, of course man hours are of irrelevance and the the old ROI... Frames yes a very interesting topic.

 

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12 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

You seem to throw batterys around like a drunken sailor and traction motors and AC distribution processing maybe wiring saftey codes standard's ahh yes those regenerative braking systems. Then there's the software Ohh perhaps the testing process for all these systems, of course man hours are of irrelevance and the the old ROI... Frames yes a very interesting topic.

 

The high speed electric locomotives do have more powerful motors and a more extensive AC distribution system. But they don't have regenerative braking. The software testing goes to the framework. It is framework as in platform, not just the physical frame. What the article was saying is that the framework / platform of the high speed electric trains is much more expensive because it is very low volume and is pushing the envelope on high speed performance.

The FLX uses the standard Wabtec heavy freight framework / platform which is extremely high volume. 

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I think its a very good idea. why not use the wasted energy and turn it into electricity to reduce fuel costs? If fuel, maintenance costs, employee costs all show a payback against the initial cost of the locomotive over its lifespan then it makes economic sense for Wabtec and others to pursue this technology.

In fairness to Jay like any new tech the costs will reduce as efficiencies and improved tech come into play. That's the case in every new industry, look at fracking!

I'm sure Wabtec wouldn't be investing into this if there wasn't a payback financially, unless of course there is political pressure to do so regardless. I would be interested if anyone can shed some light on that.

I'm no greenie but I'm forced to have a hybrid car due to tax reasons and I can assure you that the regenerative braking helps enormously with fuel consumption, I'm sure that its just an extension of the same principle from what I have read on this thread.

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8 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I think its a very good idea. why not use the wasted energy and turn it into electricity to reduce fuel costs? If fuel, maintenance costs, employee costs all show a payback against the initial cost of the locomotive over its lifespan then it makes economic sense for Wabtec and others to pursue this technology.

In fairness to Jay like any new tech the costs will reduce as efficiencies and improved tech come into play. That's the case in every new industry, look at fracking!

I'm sure Wabtec wouldn't be investing into this if there wasn't a payback financially, unless of course there is political pressure to do so regardless. I would be interested if anyone can shed some light on that.

I'm no greenie but I'm forced to have a hybrid car due to tax reasons and I can assure you that the regenerative braking helps enormously with fuel consumption, I'm sure that its just an extension of the same principle from what I have read on this thread.

The pressure is on BNSF and UP to run cleaner trains through the areas of California with the worst air quality. They are facing pollution taxes otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The pressure is on BNSF and UP to run cleaner trains through the areas of California with the worst air quality. They are facing pollution taxes otherwise. 

Ahhh so there is political pressure and a tax burden then, just what I thought.

That being said if the tech is economical then why not develop it!

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5 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

You seem to throw batterys around like a drunken sailor and traction motors and AC distribution processing maybe wiring saftey codes standard's ahh yes those regenerative braking systems. Then there's the software Ohh perhaps the testing process for all these systems, of course man hours are of irrelevance and the the old ROI... Frames yes a very interesting topic.

 

Remember that the existing fleet of locomotives in North America are almost universally diesel electric - not direct drive.  They already have AC distribution systems on them, electric traction motors and the whole lot.  The change to a battery-electric locomotive instead of a diesel-electric was to pull the diesel and generator out and replace them with a battery pack and control software.  The rest of the locomotive required little change and uses systems that have been in steady use and development for decades. 

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11 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

Kinda forgetting about the decades old track and support under it I’m guessing? Oh well the democrats can suggest spending 60 Billion for upgrade, like the 500 thousand EV charging stations they want WE THE PEOPLE to contribute to! Kinda like Obama’s Cash For Klunkers, LMFAO

No upgrades required - the new battery-electric locomotives have the exact same weight and axle loading as the diesel-electric locomotives which they might replace.  That 'decades old track and support' would continue to perform the exact same job which it has performed over those decades.  You are shooting at straw men here.  There ARE some potential problems with battery-electric locomotives but you haven't managed to get to any of them yet, because you are stuck on weight - the one issue where it's definitively NOT a concern.  

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Do you really have any idea of the conditions of decades old track conditions? So me the proof, I have a buddy that’s on board of CSX and they are constantly having to dig up miles of track foundation and replace cracked track and this is in an environment where the weather is pretty consistent, take the NE or North Central so of that track dates back to gold rush! You’re drinking the kool aid……

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5 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

Do you really have any idea of the conditions of decades old track conditions? So me the proof, I have a buddy that’s on board of CSX and they are constantly having to dig up miles of track foundation and replace cracked track and this is in an environment where the weather is pretty consistent, take the NE or North Central so of that track dates back to gold rush! You’re drinking the kool aid……

Yes - tracks are constantly dug up and replaced.  It happens around the clock continuously on every railroad everywhere which is running trains on it - I live in a location where I cross a branch of the Union Pacific on almost every trip in and out of my house, and they pull up the ties on a regular basis (twice in 5 years since I moved here, although one of them was flooding related).  The only track anywhere in the world that 'dates back to a gold rush' is track which is abandoned, or which has been downrated to such a degree that it's speed and load limits are severely curtailed.  ANY track which sees regular use requires considerable regular maintenance, but here's a news flash:  Diesel, and electric locomotives are MUCH easier on track maintenance than the old steam locomotives were, perhaps by an order of magnitude (10 times better).  Not only were the old steam locomotives heavier, but the pounding action of the pistons and the counterweights on the wheels caused stress concentrations on the rails which made them wear out faster.  

 

I'll say this again, since you aren't listening. There are, and will be real problems with electrical locomotives, but weight isn't one of them.  I would recommend doing some research on the operation of a variety of locomotives, modern and historical and then get back on the topic of electric locomotive drawbacks.  I have done a little bit of this, because I am something of a 'railfan' and an engineer, and it is obvious that you don't understand the critical factors in locomotive and railroad design and operation.  

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OMAHA, Neb. — With a goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions 26% by the end of the decade, Union Pacific is working to improve locomotive fuel efficiency, plans to roll out battery-electric locomotives soon, and is exploring alternatives to the diesel-electric.

“We do not plan on buying any new locomotives — unless it’s battery-electric locomotives for testing out that concept, in which case I think we will be on top of that in the very near future,” CEO Lance Fritz said during an investor day presentation on Tuesday.

UP plans to introduce battery-electric switching locomotives — first in California and then in yards and local operations across the system — and is working with Wabtec and Progress Rail on road locomotives that will reduce emissions.

https://www.trains.com/trn/union-pacific-sees-battery-electric-locomotives-as-the-future/

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EMD Battery Electric

Progress Rail is proud to offer its newly developed, fully battery-powered switcher locomotive. The new EMD® Joule is a zero emissions switcher which includes battery capacity from 1.9 megawatt hours up to 2.4 megawatt hours, with additional options available.

The switcher has nominal power up to 3,000 horsepower, and a run time of up to 24 hours, dependent upon charging and utilization.

The switcher’s battery recovers energy through dynamic braking. When dynamic braking is activated to control train speed, the battery will restore its energy reserves.

TECHNICAL DETAILS

Power     

  • Traction: 2,140 kW 
  • Total: 2,240 kW

Tractive Effort

  • Max: 493 kN
  • Continuous: 441 kN

Weight Total     118.105 tons

EMD® Joule Freight Locomotive

https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html

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6 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

Do you really have any idea of the conditions of decades old track conditions? So me the proof, I have a buddy that’s on board of CSX and they are constantly having to dig up miles of track foundation and replace cracked track and this is in an environment where the weather is pretty consistent, take the NE or North Central so of that track dates back to gold rush! You’re drinking the kool aid……

You need to ask your buddy at CSX why they have been letting such an overweight engine run on their railroad.  Because it is based in Eerie PA and used CSX rails to get to the BNSF.

FLXdrive, the prototype of a battery electric locomotive designed at the Erie, Pennsylvania Wabtec plant rolled back into town, greeted by the cheers of its design team.

 

It's been under testing on the rails in California, where its "green" performance blew everyone on the project away.  Jim Meyer, Wabtec Vice President of Technology said, "We're thrilled, the California research board's thrilled and then our customer BN is thrilled. Lots of great data and really a great great test run." 

 

The prototype was built from on the platform of an existing locomotive.  Using all the data from the test run, Erie Wabtec design engineers will begin developing the next battery electric locomotive, the designs are already on the drawing board.  And like the first it will be built in Erie.

https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/43867470/wabtec-flexdrive-battery-electric-locomotive-comes-home-after-successful-testing

 

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9 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

EMD Battery Electric

Progress Rail is proud to offer its newly developed, fully battery-powered switcher locomotive. The new EMD® Joule is a zero emissions switcher which includes battery capacity from 1.9 megawatt hours up to 2.4 megawatt hours, with additional options available.

The switcher has nominal power up to 3,000 horsepower, and a run time of up to 24 hours, dependent upon charging and utilization.

The switcher’s battery recovers energy through dynamic braking. When dynamic braking is activated to control train speed, the battery will restore its energy reserves.

TECHNICAL DETAILS

Power     

  • Traction: 2,140 kW 
  • Total: 2,240 kW

Tractive Effort

  • Max: 493 kN
  • Continuous: 441 kN

Weight Total     118.105 tons

EMD® Joule Freight Locomotive

https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html

Jay,  bringing reality to this discussion? many do not want to hear it.

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1 hour ago, Eric Gagen said:

Yes - tracks are constantly dug up and replaced.  It happens around the clock continuously on every railroad everywhere which is running trains on it - I live in a location where I cross a branch of the Union Pacific on almost every trip in and out of my house, and they pull up the ties on a regular basis (twice in 5 years since I moved here, although one of them was flooding related).  The only track anywhere in the world that 'dates back to a gold rush' is track which is abandoned, or which has been downrated to such a degree that it's speed and load limits are severely curtailed.  ANY track which sees regular use requires considerable regular maintenance, but here's a news flash:  Diesel, and electric locomotives are MUCH easier on track maintenance than the old steam locomotives were, perhaps by an order of magnitude (10 times better).  Not only were the old steam locomotives heavier, but the pounding action of the pistons and the counterweights on the wheels caused stress concentrations on the rails which made them wear out faster.  

 

I'll say this again, since you aren't listening. There are, and will be real problems with electrical locomotives, but weight isn't one of them.  I would recommend doing some research on the operation of a variety of locomotives, modern and historical and then get back on the topic of electric locomotive drawbacks.  I have done a little bit of this, because I am something of a 'railfan' and an engineer, and it is obvious that you don't understand the critical factors in locomotive and railroad design and operation.  

So you have a HO train in house…….

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33 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You need to ask your buddy at CSX why they have been letting such an overweight engine run on their railroad.  Because it is based in Eerie PA and used CSX rails to get to the BNSF.

FLXdrive, the prototype of a battery electric locomotive designed at the Erie, Pennsylvania Wabtec plant rolled back into town, greeted by the cheers of its design team.

 

It's been under testing on the rails in California, where its "green" performance blew everyone on the project away.  Jim Meyer, Wabtec Vice President of Technology said, "We're thrilled, the California research board's thrilled and then our customer BN is thrilled. Lots of great data and really a great great test run." 

 

The prototype was built from on the platform of an existing locomotive.  Using all the data from the test run, Erie Wabtec design engineers will begin developing the next battery electric locomotive, the designs are already on the drawing board.  And like the first it will be built in Erie.

https://www.erienewsnow.com/story/43867470/wabtec-flexdrive-battery-electric-locomotive-comes-home-after-successful-testing

 

That would be the Company Executives going for as much money as can squeeze out of rails! They have fucked over employees with mergers and acquisitions!

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Uh, electric locomotives are not new.  Of all things that can be electrified, railroad Locomotives is on the top of the list.  Far before one talks trucking, or personal cars. 

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4 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Uh, electric locomotives are not new.  Of all things that can be electrified, railroad Locomotives is on the top of the list.  Far before one talks trucking, or personal cars. 

Uh, electric cars are not new...

 

Clipboard01.jpg

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(edited)

1 hour ago, RichieRich216 said:

So you have a HO train in house…….

N scale these days - it's all packed up at the moment - used to do HO, but that was a long time ago.  They are all electric though!  My Engineering degree is in petroleum engineering though - I don't know how to be a train driver. 

Edited by Eric Gagen
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(edited)

9 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

 

 

Edited by Eric Gagen

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