ronwagn

Severe Drought in the West Will Greatly Reduce Electrical Production from Hydroelectric Turbines.

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2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Your ass is very tight, as you pretend a subject cannot be expanded upon... .... Only YOU can expand on a subject...

Grow up

Just pointing out that you’re unnecessarily hostile. 

It’s hard to store massive amounts of water. End of story bud. 

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It, once again, shows that we need something to fall back on - on a rainy day.📢

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As a Mid-Atlantic denizen, should I expect less fruits and vegetables this year?   A lot of them Arizona and the states on the Pacific.

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Several things they can do.

1. drain Lake Powell.  Seepage losses thru the lake walls and bottom is greater than the domestic water requirements of Los Angeles. Glen Canyon only produces 60 mw of hydropower.

2. Eliminate the interbasin transfers from  the Colorado River to City of Denver at Mt. Elbert.

3. Remove domestic irrigation systems for lawns and shrubs.

4. Double water rates for every 15,000  gallons of additional use.

5. Post names of water wasters on the front page of local paper.  The Express News and the Light  posted Clint Black for using a million gallons/month.  He stopped quickly.

6. Ban construction of new private swimming pools and refilling existing private pools.

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(edited)

1 hour ago, nsdp said:

Several things they can do.

1. drain Lake Powell.  Seepage losses thru the lake walls and bottom is greater than the domestic water requirements of Los Angeles. Glen Canyon only produces 60 mw of hydropower.

2. Eliminate the interbasin transfers from  the Colorado River to City of Denver at Mt. Elbert.

3. Remove domestic irrigation systems for lawns and shrubs.

4. Double water rates for every 15,000  gallons of additional use.

5. Post names of water wasters on the front page of local paper.  The Express News and the Light  posted Clint Black for using a million gallons/month.  He stopped quickly.

6. Ban construction of new private swimming pools and refilling existing private pools.

The "City of Front Range" (from Ft. Collins down to Pueblo along I-25) is still adding population at an alarming rate.

Several years ago, a Ft. Collins developer ( Aaron Million) proposed a large water pipeline from the Green River (which feeds the Colorado River) in western Wyoming to deliver water to that area.  Local opposition appears to have killed that idea, but you never know.  Something's gotta give.

You would think California would be "disturbed".

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/01/17/water-utah-colorado-aaron-million/

...and then...

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/05/18/400-million-northern-colorado-reservoir-gets-final-approval/

Edited by turbguy
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(edited)

On 7/14/2021 at 12:59 AM, Dan Clemmensen said:

Wherever you are near sea level, desal is great for residential, commercial, and (most) industry, but not for agriculture. Desal is an ideal match for intermittent electricity supply (solar and wind) because you can just run desal when the electricity is available. It also adds only a small increment to the total cost of treated non-agricultural water. In California, where a huge percentage of the population population lives near sea level, we could shift entirely to desal for all but agriculture with only a small increase in our water bills.

Agriculture is an entirely different order of magnitude. If the farmers had to pay for desal, (amost) no farms would be profitable. Cheaper to just import food from wetter areas east of the Mississippi.

Computations: desal needs an effective pressure drop of about 50 psi.  (The pressure at the membranes is higher but you can recover all but 50 psi). 50 PSI is equivalent to a head of about 100 ft. A theoretically perfect system needs 1 kWh to raise 3000 gallons to 100 ft. If the population lives at an average height above sea level of 100 ft, you must double this, so 1 kWh for 1500 gallons. That's enough water to run an average house for at least two weeks.  However, farmers measure their usage in acre-feet. An acre-foot is about 325,000 gallons.

Hydroponics in closed facilities would work very well. It could be done right near the major cities throughout the West and in cold climates of the northern plains. Another option is drip irrigation with plastic covering to lower evaporation. 

Large scale hydroponics structures and equipment: 

https://thehydroponicsstore.com/grow-blog/steps-to-plan-large-scale-hydroponics-farm/

Industrial hydroponic farm

Edited by ronwagn
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On 7/14/2021 at 9:33 AM, Dan Clemmensen said:

Yup, reality intrudes. My numbers gave an absolute lower bound on the amount of energy needed for desal, based on the amount of energy needed to raise water to a height (i.e., to increase the gravitational potential energy of the mass of the water). No pump can ever be better than this.  A big desal installation in real life might be able to get 90% efficiency, but I think 80% would be a better conservative planning number. This does not change the fundamental economics, because the energy cost remains a small part of the overall cost of tap water. Non-agricultural users won't see much of an increase at the tap, and desal for agriculture is not cost-effective.

Desal for water, using hydroponics or at least drip irrigation with plastic covering could be quite efficient and affordable. If the Pacific Coast treated all of its grey water and reused it plus stopped wasting effluent its real water problems would be solved.

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On 7/15/2021 at 7:38 AM, Eric Gagen said:

Desalinization equipment usually operates at a much higher pressure than 50 psi - the more efficient/effective equipment works at several thousand psi, and centrifugal type pumps such as those used for wells do not generate that sort of pressure.  Desalinization equipment is usually force fed by positive displacement pumps, and they are usually 90% efficient or more.  however because the pressure is so much higher they require a LOT more power to operate.  That power gets used efficiently, but it's not a small input to the process.  In a very simplified way, a desalinization plant consists of 3 elements:

Capital to construct the plant

Cost of ion exchange and filtration equipment and media, which either gets used up, or requires catalytic regeneration on a regular basis as it is used (This is a variable cost which depends on the volume of water treated, and the quality of the source water)

Cost of energy for pumping

To some degree catalyst cost and pump cost are interchangeable.  You can get low pumping costs with exotic catalysts and ionic filters.  Or you can stick with cheap and simple ionic membranes and catalysts that operate at high pressures and pay for the energy.  Thus as a plant operator you can choose to decide which route to go with the plant depending on the expected cost of power, and the expected replacement and regeneration cost of the ionic and catalytic media. 

If you were the governor of California would you invest in the huge North to South water drainage from the Sacramento River and the Stockton Delta, or go all in for desalination? 

Do you think that some kind of large scale invention could ever competitively separate pure water from sea water using heat to boil it? Possibly barges that could use natural gas, maybe even from methane hydrates along the coast? Possibly using concentrated solar as in Barstow CA ? 

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21 hours ago, Piotr Berman said:

As a Mid-Atlantic denizen, should I expect less fruits and vegetables this year?   A lot of them Arizona and the states on the Pacific.

Hydroponics in buildings is reportedly taking off on the East Coast, it could definitely meet the need for vegetables. Please see my comment with the picture of a large hydroponic facility in a fabric building. Fruits trees could be grown in such buildings, even full size ones. Natural gas would be the logical choice for heat when needed. The fabric can be one that allows some light to enter, but not too much. Modern electric lighting would do the rest. I don't think the price of the product would be too high once the competition built up. 

Industrial hydroponic farm

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(edited)

18 hours ago, ronwagn said:

If you were the governor of California would you invest in the huge North to South water drainage from the Sacramento River and the Stockton Delta, or go all in for desalination? 

Do you think that some kind of large scale invention could ever competitively separate pure water from sea water using heat to boil it? Possibly barges that could use natural gas, maybe even from methane hydrates along the coast? Possibly using concentrated solar as in Barstow CA ? 

Desalinization is FAR simpler, cheaper and more efficient than diversion from the Sacramento River delta to somewhere else at least for meeting municipal supply, because it’s local scaleable, and produces water on demand with no need to plan a long time ahead for future demand. 
 

For agriculture on the other hand, its to expensive to divert that water at a profitable rate, which is why everyone in favor of plans like this wants the state to pay for it.  They fully realize that they can’t afford to buy that water if they have to pay what it actually costs to get it. 
 

why would you want to boil water for purification? That’s far to expensive and wasteful to ever work. Reverse osmosis is vastly cheaper.  
 

IMHO the solution is to desalinate  sea water for municipal supplies if necessary using reverse osmosis equipment, and then charge a market rate for the existing supply of  natural fresh water for agriculture.  You will see a major move towards more efficient use of water in southern California agriculture as they stop wasting it on crops which are only price competitive with subsidized water costs.  If after this process is completed the farmers of Southern California are capable of paying for and using even more fresh water then explore options to increase supply to them. 

Edited by Eric Gagen
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5 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

Desalinization is FAR simpler, cheaper and more efficient than diversion from the Sacramento River delta to somewhere else at least for meeting municipal supply, because it’s local scaleable, and produces water on demand with no need to plan a long time ahead for future demand. 
 

For agriculture on the other hand, its to expensive to divert that water at a profitable rate, which is why everyone in favor of plans like this wants the state to pay for it.  They fully realize that they can’t afford to buy that water if they have to pay what it actually costs to get it. 
 

why would you want to boil water for purification? That’s far to expensive and wasteful to ever work. Reverse osmosis is vastly cheaper.  
 

IMHO the solution is to desalinate  sea water for municipal supplies if necessary using reverse osmosis equipment, and then charge a market rate for the existing supply of  natural fresh water for agriculture.  You will see a major move towards more efficient use of water in southern California agriculture as they stop wasting it on crops which are only price competitive with subsidized water costs.  If after this process is completed the farmers of Southern California are capable of paying for and using even more fresh water then explore options to increase supply to them. 

I agree with all of the above. I would like to see far more hydroponics and drip irrigation with plastic coverings to prevent most evaporation. A lot of California's agriculture will have to suffer if they cannot meet foreign prices during drought years. I got rid of my electric water distiller to go back to my triple filter system at home. 

I lived in Bakersfield in the eighties and we intially had no water meters there due to the Kern river flow. A few years later they installed meters. There was so much calcium in the water you had to avoid the sprinklers getting on your car windows or they would get white stains. Lake Isabella and all the reservors are now only about one third full. Worse than the last drought.

You say municipal use, the changes need to be radical. Low to no water use for lawns. Higher prices for above basic home use. Agriculture is more important than lawns IMHO. 

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On 7/13/2021 at 5:43 PM, turbguy said:

I let God wash my truck.

It’s environmentally friendly!

On 7/15/2021 at 12:10 PM, KeyboardWarrior said:

You talking about tiling? I like tiling.

Switching to regenerative (no till) Ag would have a huge impact on emissions and has a better return per acre according to these guys.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/no-till-farming-could-cut-greenhouse-gases-significantly

Netflix had an interesting movie on the subject, “Kiss the Ground”.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81321999

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2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I agree with all of the above. I would like to see far more hydroponics and drip irrigation with plastic coverings to prevent most evaporation. A lot of California's agriculture will have to suffer if they cannot meet foreign prices during drought years. I got rid of my electric water distiller to go back to my triple filter system at home. 

I lived in Bakersfield in the eighties and we intially had no water meters there due to the Kern river flow. A few years later they installed meters. There was so much calcium in the water you had to avoid the sprinklers getting on your car windows or they would get white stains. Lake Isabella and all the reservors are now only about one third full. Worse than the last drought.

You say municipal use, the changes need to be radical. Low to no water use for lawns. Higher prices for above basic home use. Agriculture is more important than lawns IMHO. 

I lived in Bakersfield briefly - the most un California California place I’ve ever been

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More and more waste water will be directed back into freshwater reservoirs.

Gross, but if the wastewater is highly treated, and the reservoir is very large, dilution and biological cleanup processes can keep the water clean enough. 

Of course it is treated and chlorinated again before redistribution.

 

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4 hours ago, Strangelovesurfing said:

Switching to regenerative (no till) Ag would have a huge impact on emissions and has a better return per acre according to these guys.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/no-till-farming-could-cut-greenhouse-gases-significantly

Netflix had an interesting movie on the subject, “Kiss the Ground”.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81321999

So actually we run no till. Are registered USDA organic too. You're right, the returns are much better. 

Thing is, none of this says much about tiling. Tiling is just a way of providing drained soil for crops, and thus improving yields. This can be utilized in regenerative and non regenerative settings with the same effect. 

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On 7/13/2021 at 10:26 PM, ronwagn said:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/13/hoover-dam-lake-mead-severe-drought-us-west

This is going to make a "green transition" more difficult than expected without the use of fossil fuels. The West is  a prime area trying to go green. 

Lake Mead behind the Hoover dam from the Arizona side.

Feeling so bad for the greenies, after Decades Kinda looking like didn’t think ahead, That said NO SURPRISE with the mentality green on the brain mentality…😂

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57 minutes ago, RichieRich216 said:

Feeling so bad for the greenies, after Decades Kinda looking like didn’t think ahead, That said NO SURPRISE with the mentality green on the brain mentality…😂

Nonsense. We're the people with all the fancy education, remember?

California is planning floating wind farms offshore to boost its power supply 

An illustration of each in an ocean, showing how lines anchor it to the sea floor.

Northern California has some of the strongest offshore winds in the U.S., with immense potential to produce clean energy. But it has a problem. Its continental shelf drops off quickly, making building traditional wind turbines directly on the seafloor costly if not impossible.

Once water gets more than about 200 feet deep – roughly the height of an 18-story building – these “monopile” structures are pretty much out of the question.

A solution has emerged that’s being tested in several locations around the world: making wind turbines that float. In fact, in California, where drought is putting pressure on the hydropower supply and fires have threatened electricity imports from the Pacific Northwest, the state is moving forward on plans to develop the nation’s first floating offshore wind farms as we speak.

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Maine just outlawed wind turbines on its state waters. They are open to wind turbines on federal water and beyond the horizon. I have no objection to those either, but they may be too expensive to compete. They work for Europe but their electricity is far more expensive. We have clean abundant natural gas to use. Europe will have Russian gas and from other sources as LNG if competitive. Russia is apparently going for higher prices and more profit versus maximizing market share. 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/maine-bans-new-wind-power-projects-in-state-waters_3899223.html

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16 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Maine just outlawed wind turbines on its state waters. They are open to wind turbines on federal water and beyond the horizon. I have no objection to those either, but they may be too expensive to compete. They work for Europe but their electricity is far more expensive. We have clean abundant natural gas to use. Europe will have Russian gas and from other sources as LNG if competitive. Russia is apparently going for higher prices and more profit versus maximizing market share. 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/maine-bans-new-wind-power-projects-in-state-waters_3899223.html

The US has a lot of land.  Offshore wind will have to overcome land based wind before any other obstacle.  

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54 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Maine just outlawed wind turbines on its state waters. They are open to wind turbines on federal water and beyond the horizon. I have no objection to those either, but they may be too expensive to compete. They work for Europe but their electricity is far more expensive. We have clean abundant natural gas to use. Europe will have Russian gas and from other sources as LNG if competitive. Russia is apparently going for higher prices and more profit versus maximizing market share. 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/maine-bans-new-wind-power-projects-in-state-waters_3899223.html

The Maine ban is nothing. State waters only extend 3 miles. 15 miles is the developing standard for off shore turbines.

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(edited)

48 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

The US has a lot of land.  Offshore wind will have to overcome land based wind before any other obstacle.  

US land based wind is mostly in the  middle of the country. The ocean just off of the highly populated east coast is shallow and very windy. The plan for NYs first wind farm is to have the cable come onshore next to Coney Island and be trenched directly to the middle of Brooklyn. 

wtk-60m-2017-01.jpg

Edited by Jay McKinsey
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9 hours ago, -trance said:

More and more waste water will be directed back into freshwater reservoirs.

Gross, but if the wastewater is highly treated, and the reservoir is very large, dilution and biological cleanup processes can keep the water clean enough. 

Of course it is treated and chlorinated again before redistribution.

 

Unless you live right next to the ocean, ALL waste water is directed directly back into fresh water reservoirs be it lakes or streams.

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On 7/16/2021 at 5:23 PM, turbguy said:

The "City of Front Range" (from Ft. Collins down to Pueblo along I-25) is still adding population at an alarming rate.

Several years ago, a Ft. Collins developer ( Aaron Million) proposed a large water pipeline from the Green River (which feeds the Colorado River) in western Wyoming to deliver water to that area.  Local opposition appears to have killed that idea, but you never know.  Something's gotta give.

You would think California would be "disturbed".

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/01/17/water-utah-colorado-aaron-million/

...and then...

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/05/18/400-million-northern-colorado-reservoir-gets-final-approval/

I would say that the Residents of Colorado have first call on that water and NOT California who has access to an ocean for Dessalination whereas Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada are land bound.  +25% allotment to California schlepped across the desert to LA should be eliminated if you asked me.  Yes, technically Colorado River abuts Cal, but it gets zero water from Cal... so.  Time to redress water realities from the early 1900's.

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