Building A $2 Billion Subsea Solar Power Cable From Chile To China

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

11 hours ago, NickW said:

Care to extrapolate those  costs and apply to a >10,000 mile cable across an ocean over 10,000 metres in depth in places?

Considered the costs of doing a repair on a cable at that depth? 

Considered the transmission losses even with HVDC? 

The reason Tibetan solar is potentially viable  as a resource and chile is pie in the sky is:

• Its relatively close
• Its on home turf
• It can be backed up with Hydro & peaking plant. 
• Doesn't require the worlds entire copper supply to build it. 

Ah, finally, rationality in a discussion on intermittent energy sources.  No, it is NOT rational economically to try and power a country from the other side of the world or 1000's of kilometers away.  Hey, we finally agree.  So, from here on out we can all agree, powering countries from Pie in the Sky Utopia from other time zones and several borders long distances away as a topic can be laughed at properly.  Even before we talk about a little thing called war... 🙄

There is an exception here...  Bottom of Pacific ocean is ~2C and since zero oxygen down there, nothing rusts, so moving parts will last a VERY long time or radiators will also not clog up due to rust etc   We have superconductors which operate at -20C...  A superconductor cable with cooling/insulation would not require the worlds entire copper resources.  Just other rare elements instead....  🙄

There is a reason people have continually looked at solar based solar power beaming technology.  Problem is anything of that massive amount of power is truly one of the scariest weapons, or unintentional weapons on/above earth. 

[nsdp + 449]

6 hours ago, NickW said:

1.4GW North Sea link (longest interconnector in the World) is 450 miles long and cost 2 billion Euros 

Using 1st world costs in the 3rd world, I shake my head.  You probably aren't old enough to remember the Aswan Dam.  Also remember Chile has more copper than any one else and they can manipulate that cost and make it a non-cash item.

[nsdp + 449]

17 hours ago, NickW said:

The solar resource in Tibet is comparable to Chile (its a bit better there)  and year round too - I have already posted the figures on this thread

The 1.4GW North Sea link (worlds longest interconnector) cost 2 billion Euros to lay a set of cables 450 miles with transformers at either end. The North Sea is very shallow. 

Care to extrapolate those  costs and apply to a >10,000 mile cable across an ocean over 10,000 metres in depth in places?

Considered the costs of doing a repair on a cable at that depth? 

Considered the transmission losses even with HVDC? 

The reason Tibetan solar is potentially viable  as a resource and chile is pie in the sky is:

• Its relatively close
• Its on home turf
• It can be backed up with Hydro & peaking plant. 
• Doesn't require the worlds entire copper supply to build it. 
• While China is on the same time zone geographically Tibet is 2-3 zones behind the eastern coastal areas. This means the Tibetan solar will be producing after nightfall in the East. 

 

 

 

 

How many years have you worked as a dispatcher? You don't know which has greater value.  I still my IBEW local 66 card and certification from IEEE as a Power Generation and Transmission specialist.

Logistics into Tibet are at best difficult.  Two, you have ethnic issues in Tibet.   You have never looked at a map to see the problems getting any  where in Tibet.  I knew growing up two American pilots who flew from the terminus of the Over the Hump flights in WWII to 14th AF bases.   Chinese pilots flew the Hump from India to China. Logistics in Tibet will be hell according to the stories  the two pilots told me. .   Repairs on a cable in the mountains  will be far worse fishing a cable off the bottom of the ocean based on China's experience in the north with Three Gorges Dam and the HVDC lines from it.  Fiber optic cable laying has made  mid latitude cable laying and repair routine not a Herculean effort the way power line work in western China is.  Check your facts rather than making something up.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/18/2021 at 3:34 PM, Meredith Poor said:

Chile, because Australia and Argentina are on China's ****-list.

China is on a lot more s--t lists. 😊

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, nsdp said:

Using 1st world costs in the 3rd world, I shake my head.  You probably aren't old enough to remember the Aswan Dam.  Also remember Chile has more copper than any one else and they can manipulate that cost and make it a non-cash item.

Chile's mining operators are not going to forgo >$10,000 ton for processed copper. 

 

This Chile - China cable really is the domain of Oil Price.coms crack pipe connoisseurs 🤣

A 3 GW cable, even if it can deliver 24/7 - 365 days a year (with solar.....) is 26 Twh

Lets say wholesale electricity price in China is 10c/kwh 

Thats $2.6 billion of revenue a year. 

From which you have to deduct

• Cost of the solar farms
• Building of the transmission both on land and submarine
• Building the transformers
• Operating the system
• No doubt some taxes
• In reality transmission losses with HVDC are about 1.5% per 1000km so the system will lose 15-20% of the input energy

 

NSL was 2 billion Euros through shallow seas. . Even if we assume the Pacific fantasy can be done at 1/3 the price per km the cable is 22x longer with double the capacity. You are looking at a 31 billion euro ($35 billion USD)  investment . 

 

 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, nsdp said:

How many years have you worked as a dispatcher? You don't know which has greater value.  I still my IBEW local 66 card and certification from IEEE as a Power Generation and Transmission specialist.

Logistics into Tibet are at best difficult.  Two, you have ethnic issues in Tibet.   You have never looked at a map to see the problems getting any  where in Tibet.  I knew growing up two American pilots who flew from the terminus of the Over the Hump flights in WWII to 14th AF bases.   Chinese pilots flew the Hump from India to China. Logistics in Tibet will be hell according to the stories  the two pilots told me. .   Repairs on a cable in the mountains  will be far worse fishing a cable off the bottom of the ocean based on China's experience in the north with Three Gorges Dam and the HVDC lines from it.  Fiber optic cable laying has made  mid latitude cable laying and repair routine not a Herculean effort the way power line work in western China is.  Check your facts rather than making something up.

The hump is the Himalayas Mountains rather than the Tibetan plateau* that sits behind it.

None of this has stopped the Chinese building roads in Tibet or indeed large wind farms. Now if you can get wind turbines and towers up onto the plateau you can do it with solar as the plant is smaller and modular. 

Infact while on the subject of facts lets introduce some about solar in Tibet

This is What 4 Million Solar Panels Look Like From Space | Climate Central

Consortium for Battery Innovation | » China Shoto – World’s highest solar farm

Tibet: solar power has resolved electricity usage issues for over 600,000 people_News_TIBET

 

Let us know when they start laying the pacific cable. 

 

 

* Flat elevated table land

[notsonice + 1,062]

7 hours ago, nsdp said:

Using 1st world costs in the 3rd world, I shake my head.  You probably aren't old enough to remember the Aswan Dam.  Also remember Chile has more copper than any one else and they can manipulate that cost and make it a non-cash item.

the 3rd world? Chile 3rd world???? You obviously have never lived in Chile ....... Santiago makes any city in the US looks like the 3rd world. Metro system that is fabulous. High rises that can withstand 9.0 earthquakes with little to no damage.... Cost of housing in Chile???? Same as US..........You really should have quit before you posted on this thread. A cable from Chile to China??? who are you kidding. Once again invest in it ...you will be parted with your monies.

 

The Republic of Chile (officially) by this metrics ranks 42nd out of 189 countries and would thus be considered a FIRST WORLD nation by their HDI ranking.

---

Blue - “First World” - Yellow - “Second World” & Red - “Third World” based upon countries HDI score. Chile ranks 42, which falls into the “First World” category by this updated metric representation.

Edited November 25, 2021 by notsonice

[nsdp + 449]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:07 AM, notsonice said:

the 3rd world? Chile 3rd world???? You obviously have never lived in Chile ....... Santiago makes any city in the US looks like the 3rd world. Metro system that is fabulous. High rises that can withstand 9.0 earthquakes with little to no damage.... Cost of housing in Chile???? Same as US..........You really should have quit before you posted on this thread. A cable from Chile to China??? who are you kidding. Once again invest in it ...you will be parted with your monies.

 

The Republic of Chile (officially) by this metrics ranks 42nd out of 189 countries and would thus be considered a FIRST WORLD nation by their HDI ranking.

---

Blue - “First World” - Yellow - “Second World” & Red - “Third World” based upon countries HDI score. Chile ranks 42, which falls into the “First World” category by this updated metric representation.

Only if you can exempt their rather corrupt  political system. Chilean citizens  figured prominently  in recent Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prosecutions here in the US.  Bribes are still a way of life while not  corrupt as the Pinochet  regime.   I was an appointed counsel in white collar cases beginning with the passage of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in 1984 and had extensive experience in this area.  . Chilean citizens figure prominently in the  Pandora Papers leak last month.  They also were involved in the Panama papers 5 years ago. These cases involving US property are now coming to trial. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by nsdp
correct grammar

[nsdp + 449]

On 11/25/2021 at 3:57 AM, NickW said:

The hump is the Himalayas Mountains rather than the Tibetan plateau* that sits behind it.

None of this has stopped the Chinese building roads in Tibet or indeed large wind farms. Now if you can get wind turbines and towers up onto the plateau you can do it with solar as the plant is smaller and modular. 

Infact while on the subject of facts lets introduce some about solar in Tibet

This is What 4 Million Solar Panels Look Like From Space | Climate Central

Consortium for Battery Innovation | » China Shoto – World’s highest solar farm

Tibet: solar power has resolved electricity usage issues for over 600,000 people_News_TIBET

 

Let us know when they start laying the pacific cable. 

 

 real estate

* Flat elevated table land

Nick the Tibetan and Xinxang renewables  constitute  the largest portion of the 270 billion KWH in stranded electric power in China. Pretty solar and wind farms are useless if you don't have the infrastructure to get the power to market when needed.  China State Grid Corp got caught by developers who can't finish their projects.  Their grid  was built to meet some of the imaginary real estate development. As a result portions of their grid connecting your projects   are like some of the see through real estate developments  in the western regions of China  where only 4% of the population lives. Another Chinese real estate developer is in serious trouble now making seven.https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/investing/kaisa-group-china-real-esta excess renewate-intl-hnk/index.html

Let me know when Evergreene and the other six real estate developers turn their properties into real electric load for the utilities. I hold this patent issued by the government  in China CN104937222B - The circulation two close cycles electricity generation system and its application method of combination - Google Patents  and we are working with the China State Grid Corp to find a way to store the unusable wind and solar power  generated in China.  The wasted solar and wind would go a long way  to eliminating the BS stories here on Oilprice about coal  and nuke plants in China.   Have you ever studied the power transfer capacity  in western China?  Do you know what must be done to make those resources fully usable?

I suspect that you and notsonice both have advanced cases of Dunning Krueger Syndrome.

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, nsdp said:

Nick the Tibetan and Xinxang renewables  constitute  the largest portion of the 270 billion KWH in stranded electric power in China. Pretty solar and wind farms are useless if you don't have the infrastructure to get the power to market when needed.  China State Grid Corp got caught by developers who can't finish their projects.  Their grid  was built to meet some of the imaginary real estate development. As a result portions of their grid connecting your projects   are like some of the see through real estate developments  in the western regions of China  where only 4% of the population lives. Another Chinese real estate developer is in serious trouble now making seven.https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/investing/kaisa-group-china-real-esta excess renewate-intl-hnk/index.html

Let me know when Evergreene and the other six real estate developers turn their properties into real electric load for the utilities. I hold this patent issued by the government  in China CN104937222B - The circulation two close cycles electricity generation system and its application method of combination - Google Patents  and we are working with the China State Grid Corp to find a way to store the unusable wind and solar power  generated in China.  The wasted solar and wind would go a long way  to eliminating the BS stories here on Oilprice about coal  and nuke plants in China.   Have you ever studied the power transfer capacity  in western China?  Do you know what must be done to make those resources fully usable?

I suspect that you and notsonice both have advanced cases of Dunning Krueger Syndrome.

Well that's bad planning. Allowing too much generating plant to be built before transmission lines are in place. 

However if transmission lines from Western China to Eastern China are a non starter that tells you everything you need to know about a transpacific cable. 

Let us know when they start laying that cable. 

[notsonice + 1,062]

19 hours ago, nsdp said:

Only if you can exempt their rather corrupt  political system. Chilean citizens  figured prominently  in recent Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prosecutions here in the US.  Bribes are still a way of life while not  corrupt as the Pinochet  regime.   I was an appointed counsel in white collar cases beginning with the passage of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in 1984 and had extensive experience in this area.  . Chilean citizens figure prominently in the  Pandora Papers leak last month.  They also were involved in the Panama papers 5 years ago. These cases involving US property are now coming to trial. 

and you expect Chile to build a pie in the sky power cable? because you babble on about your thinking all countries expect the US are corrupt. When is the last time you lived or worked in Chile? ever? extensive experience in what? babble. Your whole Chile is a third world country is BS, then saying they should donate copper to your much loved whacko  Chile to China cable. Any one that promotes such lunacy is either brain dead or part of a con game to enrich themselves.

[notsonice + 1,062]

10 hours ago, Wombat One said:

What is the Chilean Peso worth? Does that impact the LCOE?

 

This is why Chile has a two currency system. The other is the UF.... in other words all property is sold in UF which is tied to the dollar. Any Chilean with any cash also has a US dollar bank account. Try to finance anything in Chile and UF loan is all you will see. Chile is broke??? Ha Ha Ha Include all or their dollars accounts and they are less in debt than the US

Edited December 1, 2021 by notsonice

[notsonice + 1,062]

18 hours ago, nsdp said:

Nick the Tibetan and Xinxang renewables  constitute  the largest portion of the 270 billion KWH in stranded electric power in China. Pretty solar and wind farms are useless if you don't have the infrastructure to get the power to market when needed.  China State Grid Corp got caught by developers who can't finish their projects.  Their grid  was built to meet some of the imaginary real estate development. As a result portions of their grid connecting your projects   are like some of the see through real estate developments  in the western regions of China  where only 4% of the population lives. Another Chinese real estate developer is in serious trouble now making seven.https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/investing/kaisa-group-china-real-esta excess renewate-intl-hnk/index.html

Let me know when Evergreene and the other six real estate developers turn their properties into real electric load for the utilities. I hold this patent issued by the government  in China CN104937222B - The circulation two close cycles electricity generation system and its application method of combination - Google Patents  and we are working with the China State Grid Corp to find a way to store the unusable wind and solar power  generated in China.  The wasted solar and wind would go a long way  to eliminating the BS stories here on Oilprice about coal  and nuke plants in China.   Have you ever studied the power transfer capacity  in western China?  Do you know what must be done to make those resources fully usable?

I suspect that you and notsonice both have advanced cases of Dunning Krueger Syndrome.

I suspect that you and notsonice both have advanced cases of Dunning Krueger Syndrome.???? I suspect you are going senile old man.

[nsdp + 449]

8 hours ago, notsonice said:

I suspect that you and notsonice both have advanced cases of Dunning Krueger Syndrome.???? I suspect you are going senile old man.

 

8 hours ago, notsonice said:

and you expect Chile to build a pie in the sky power cable? because you babble on about your thinking all countries expect the US are corrupt. When is the last time you lived or worked in Chile? ever? extensive experience in what? babble. Your whole Chile is a third world country is BS, then saying they should donate copper to your much loved whacko  Chile to China cable. Any one that promotes such lunacy is either brain dead or part of a con game to enrich themselves.

Well not in Chile per se but 3 years ago in US District Court for the Western District of Louisiana representing a US citizen who was a cooperating witness and  co defendant  with 4 Chilean  business men who received illegal cash payments in US Dollars in Panama. Before that Amoco(actually Standard Oil Co. (Ind)) was mixed up with some illegal payments to Pinochet and his ministers. I  was one of the few in house counsel with actual trial  and appellate experience in the US District Court system and in the Circuit Courts of Appeals. I flew back and forth to Chile twice to interview witnesses

All I have said is given my prior experience(before graduation from law school) as a card carrying union grid dispatcher  and as an IEEE certified Power Generation and Transmission Relay Specialist, I did not consider the project as a flight of fantasy.  It is technically feasible and probably not far different in cost  as the Chilean project will only need 1 HVDC cable( US9159468B2)of smaller diameter  (ocean dissipates heat from resistance and you have no solar load on the conductor  therefore about 1/2 of the I*2 R loss )).  That conductor length will not be substantially longer than three phase AC which requires 3 wires.  You will not have parallel path issues as you do with AC.  As I noted it is 10 hours ahead of local solar time in China so it will fill the night time valley with a source more steady than  wind resources. A similar project Project Australia-ASEAN Power Link (AAPL) Project for you enlightenment.https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projects/australia-asean-power-link-aapl-project/

 

Now if you were knowledgeable of all of these issues  and design criteria  you are an incompetent fool.

If you were not aware of the proper design elements then you are Exhibit 1 when Dunning Krueger Syndrome is presented  in court or at a medical convention.

Edited December 2, 2021 by nsdp
link didn't post spelling

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

On 11/25/2021 at 4:07 AM, nsdp said:

How many years have you worked as a dispatcher? You don't know which has greater value.  I still my IBEW local 66 card and certification from IEEE as a Power Generation and Transmission specialist.

Logistics into Tibet are at best difficult.  Two, you have ethnic issues in Tibet.   You have never looked at a map to see the problems getting any  where in Tibet.  I knew growing up two American pilots who flew from the terminus of the Over the Hump flights in WWII to 14th AF bases.   Chinese pilots flew the Hump from India to China. Logistics in Tibet will be hell according to the stories  the two pilots told me. .   Repairs on a cable in the mountains  will be far worse fishing a cable off the bottom of the ocean based on China's experience in the north with Three Gorges Dam and the HVDC lines from it.  Fiber optic cable laying has made  mid latitude cable laying and repair routine not a Herculean effort the way power line work in western China is.  Check your facts rather than making something up.

There is a rail link to Tibet now.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:56 AM, nsdp said:

Only if you can exempt their rather corrupt  political system. Chilean citizens  figured prominently  in recent Foreign Corrupt Practices Act prosecutions here in the US.  Bribes are still a way of life while not  corrupt as the Pinochet  regime.   I was an appointed counsel in white collar cases beginning with the passage of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in 1984 and had extensive experience in this area.  . Chilean citizens figure prominently in the  Pandora Papers leak last month.  They also were involved in the Panama papers 5 years ago. These cases involving US property are now coming to trial. 

The most corrupt system of all is that of US itself, because of the sheer amounts involved. The fact that US-specific forms of corruption have been relabeled into legal "lobbyism" ought to fool no one.

US nationals and Delaware offshores are strangely absent from the Paradise and Panama papers alike. This does not mean that they do not exist.

[nsdp + 449]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:41 PM, NickW said:

1.4GW North Sea link (longest interconnector in the World) is 450 miles long and cost 2 billion Euros 

Nick you are genuinely ignorant. What made that project so expensive is something in physics ( did you pass physics  in school?) was called the Carrington Effect. This requires land based facilities north of 35 degrees latitude to have special protective gear.  Solar storms can cause power grids to fail at lower latitudes https://earthsky.org/human-world/solar-storms-can-cause-power-grids-to-fail-at-lower-latitudes/ As Jackie Gleason used to say "What a Maroon"  costs are not comparable.

 

Second you will need as more miles of cable for three phase AC from Tibet or Xinjang as the project from Chile. Are you smart enough to know why?   You have to have three phase have three phase conductors plus overhead shield wire on each side of the tower. You will need a steel tower every 100 meters to maintain ground clearance for safety. Due to load carrying capacity in air and structural strength limits , you will need to use two 345kv circuits as the under water cable is larger in diameter, has lower I*2R losses and less solar heating and  does not suffer from weight limits that the towers can support.  So you wind up using twice as much cable  and the added expense  for 40 ,000 transmission towers at $300,000 US each.  You could use 500 or 768kv but that doubles the number of towers needed.    Substations and the Inverter stations  will be approximately equal since the point in Chile is 20 degrees South latitude  and the route for the underwater cable lies and the termination in China lies within 30 degrees of the equator so no extra cost for protection against the Carrington Effect. 

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

The most corrupt system of all is that of US itself, because of the sheer amounts involved. The fact that US-specific forms of corruption have been relabeled into legal "lobbyism" ought to fool no one.

US nationals and Delaware offshores are strangely absent from the Paradise and Panama papers alike. This does not mean that they do not exist.

No they are there, you didn't look far enough to the ownership levels. There were 500 US nationals in the Panama papers and I represented one in a criminal tax fraud case. . The US corruption ranking   has dropped significantly between 2009, 16th just below Great Britain, and after IRS had completed the 2009 tax payer compliance audit ($600 billion in unreported and unpaid taxes)  and 2021 it is 25th over all.  Congress has not funded a Taxpayer Compliance Audit since 2009 or a Federal Elections Commission audit of campaign finances  since the 2008 election cycle.  Chile is 47th just behind Uruguay.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

16 minutes ago, nsdp said:

No they are there, you didn't look far enough to the ownership levels. There were 500 US nationals in the Panama papers and I represented one in a criminal tax fraud case. . The US corruption ranking   has dropped significantly between 2009, 16th just below Great Britain, and after IRS had completed the 2009 tax payer compliance audit ($600 billion in unreported and unpaid taxes)  and 2021 it is 25th over all.  Congress has not funded a Taxpayer Compliance Audit since 2009 or a Federal Elections Commission audit of campaign finances  since the 2008 election cycle.  Chile is 47th just behind Uruguay.

Which corruption ranking, Transparency's "Perception"? Puleeze, they are a significant source of corruption themselves. A very perceptive German NGO indeed.

Note how few Russians they found, even though the purpose of the whole exercise was arguably finding Putin's secret billions. Which they didn't find. Again. Because they do not exist. Yet, Russia is somewhere way in the back.

I was talking about lobbyism money that are legal in US. But only there. Most European countries, including Russia, are using public campaign financing, with all major parties getting equal shares. Cash payments are nothing in comparison. You can realistically carry maybe about $1 mil as a briefcase of cash, for which Halliburton apparently even makes a reference briefcase

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BriefcaseFullOfMoney

https://zerohalliburton.com/collections/aluminum-business-cases

How far does this measly amount gets you as far as shares in Dick Chaney's own campaign contributions, you reckon?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[nsdp + 449]

3 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Which corruption ranking, Transparency's "Perception"? Puleeze, they are a significant source of corruption themselves. A very perceptive German NGO indeed.

Note how few Russians they found, even though the purpose of the whole exercise was arguably finding Putin's secret billions. Which they didn't find. Again. Because they do not exist. Yet, Russia is somewhere way in the back.

I was talking about lobbyism money that are legal in US. But only there. Most European countries, including Russia, are using public campaign financing, with all major parties getting equal shares. Cash payments are nothing in comparison. You can realistically carry maybe about $1 mil as a briefcase of cash, for which Halliburton apparently even makes a reference briefcase

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BriefcaseFullOfMoney

https://zerohalliburton.com/collections/aluminum-business-cases

How far does this measly amount gets you as far as shares in Dick Chaney's own campaign contributions, you reckon?

https://www.worlddata.info/corruption.php 

You will note that there are 70+ countries that are not ranked due to a lack of transparency.  this one I prefer since it factors in criminal financial prosecution.  you are correct , there are rankings that do not include criminal prosecution.   This last 10 years is the dirtiest I have ever seen in my life time in the US (1880s-1901 were probably as bad, then came Teddy Roosevelt).  I was part of the group that did the digging on Enron Energy Trading.  So I have seen at least a part of the big time.

[nsdp + 449]

2 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

There is a rail link to Tibet now.

That one link doesn't do much logistically . It is better than none.  EG TransSiberian in WWII allowed Soviet flagged Liberty ships  to feed the Soviet Union in WWII taking food from the US west coast to Vladivostok.  That was amazing as more deliveries were made though Vladivostok than Murmansk and Persia combined.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

9 minutes ago, nsdp said:

https://www.worlddata.info/corruption.php 

You will note that there are 70+ countries that are not ranked due to a lack of transparency.  this one I prefer since it factors in criminal financial prosecution.  you are correct , there are rankings that do not include criminal prosecution.   This last 10 years is the dirtiest I have ever seen in my life time in the US (1880s-1901 were probably as bad, then came Teddy Roosevelt).  I was part of the group that did the digging on Enron Energy Trading.  So I have seen at least a part of the big time.

It is still Transparency International's index. Which uses some entirely non-transparent mechanism demonstrating less corruption for Ukraine and various -stans of former USSR than for Russia itself. Which cannot be.

Now, look at this

https://www.transparency.org/en/the-organisation/who-supports-us

So, they are getting funded by the very same countries who surprise, surprise, end up ranked highest in their list. I rest my case.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

13 minutes ago, nsdp said:

That one link doesn't do much logistically . It is better than none.  EG TransSiberian in WWII allowed Soviet flagged Liberty ships  to feed the Soviet Union in WWII taking food from the US west coast to Vladivostok.  That was amazing as more deliveries were made though Vladivostok than Murmansk and Persia combined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Corridor

says it was the one responsible for some 45% of cargo.

The TrasSib+BAM is probably the single highest throughput public railroad in the world now, but it wasn't the case in WWII yet. Also, the Nakhodka port is bigger than Vladivostok now (according to Russian Wiki, by some 3x throughput-wise)

A little known fact - the Russian soldiers participating in September 1945 Soviet invasion of Manchuria transited the distance from Germany largely on foot, while TranSib was hauling materiel.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[nsdp + 449]

4 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

It is still Transparency International's index. Which uses some entirely non-transparent mechanism demonstrating less corruption for Ukraine and various -stans of former USSR than for Russia itself. Which cannot be.

Now, look at this

https://www.transparency.org/en/the-organisation/who-supports-us

So, they are getting funded by the very same countries who surprise, surprise, end up ranked highest in their list. I rest my case.

World Data comes from the World Bank> I am curious how you cane up with a link to Transparency Int. and World Data. Is it a credible source? Corruption in Belarus  and several of the  mid Asian republics I believe you.  Having been on the edge of the Cypess banking disaster, I believe Russian oligarchs lost more money than the rest of the depositors combined. Tha tand some of he criminal cases and litigation over ownership of several Russian Oil companies where western share holders were defrauded and are still suing means that there is not enough money in the Ukraine to match the level of fraud in Russia.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

17 minutes ago, nsdp said:

World Data comes from the World Bank> I am curious how you cane up with a link to Transparency Int. and World Data. Is it a credible source? Corruption in Belarus  and several of the  mid Asian republics I believe you.  Having been on the edge of the Cypess banking disaster, I believe Russian oligarchs lost more money than the rest of the depositors combined. Tha tand some of he criminal cases and litigation over ownership of several Russian Oil companies where western share holders were defrauded and are still suing means that there is not enough money in the Ukraine to match the level of fraud in Russia.

It says it right there,  "The index is published annually by Transparency International."

Which is as non-transparent and corrupt a Western NGO as they come. The whole practice of obfuscating organizations which are pretty much (inter)government agencies as charitable NGOs is corrupt.

There is no corruption in Belarus for the same reason there isn't really any in DPRK, even though Transparency tends to rank them one of the last. It is a police state, where private business plays a secondary role.

In Cyprus, the EU shaved all the banking deposits by some 15% A highway robbery. Ever since, is de-offshorization of Russian business is an ongoing process. The "oligarch" class realized that the only place where they can hide from major governments of the EU and US is at home, in Russia.

You mean Yukos' suit for $50 bln? Another BS case. Those aren't really "Western shareholders," but largely Khodorkovsky's interests held in escrow by the Rothshilds.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine