Microbes can provide sustainable hydrocarbons for the petrochemical industry

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

6 hours ago, ronwagn said:

That is a very good reference and shows how valuable that product is. It is mainly tilled into the soil to keep the soil natural, but can be used to make ethanol if corn is too expensive. During our last so called energy crisis President George W. Bush smartly pointed this out. I am not a fan of his due to his fondness for crony capitalism though. He also amplified spying on Americans rather than foreigners.

It is not very valuable. Look at the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_stover#Composition_and_properties

again. 3.1% protein, the rest various things you don't want. If you till it into a field, it will take much longer than one season to decompose, so you cannot do it every year. "Cellulosic" ethanol is way, way more expensive than regular corn ethanol, because you need to use a ton of expensive enzymes to break the cellulose into usable starches and sugars first.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

I already did, in several posts. To summarize, there is still potential for liquid biofuels, but not for biogas (as in methane) the way it is done now.

There is also unlikely to be a LNG on a scale of a car or truck, because it is a cryogenic liquid that cannot be stored without evaporative loss. Converting to DME (dimethyl ether) or methanol is a better idea.

CNG and LNG are a growing truck fuel around the world. If something is better let it compete. Show me. I have heard many people promoting methanol but no results for transportation. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

It is not very valuable. Look at the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_stover#Composition_and_properties

again. 3.1% protein, the rest various things you don't want. If you till it into a field, it will take much longer than one season to decompose, so you cannot do it every year. "Cellulosic" ethanol is way, way more expensive than regular corn ethanol, because you need to use a ton of expensive enzymes to break the cellulose into usable starches and sugars first.

Corn stover IS tilled into the ground every year. It preserves the tilth of the soil and degrades. I have seen trees growing in a line on dead trees in rain forests. Plants feed off of dead plants sometimes even without normal soil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilth

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

"Can" does not translate to "should" in the EU. AFAIK, there is still a glut of glycerine the "1st gen" biodiesel works produce.

I only started talking about liquid biofuels after you said my knowledge about them has a gap.

I was using the term biogas which, I think, you interpreted as a liquid. Regardless, we are hopefully now talking about gaseous fuel and or liquid fuel made from biological sources such as waste streams of some kind or any available organic matter such as peat, or cellulose. I don't see any problem with using glycerine as heating fuel. Maybe you have an argument against it. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

I was using the term biogas which, I think, you interpreted as a liquid. Regardless, we are hopefully now talking about gaseous fuel and or liquid fuel made from biological sources such as waste streams of some kind or any available organic matter such as peat, or cellulose. I don't see any problem with using glycerine as heating fuel. Maybe you have an argument against it. 

No, I am not American enough to confuse gasoline with actual gas. Pyrolysis into syngas followed by GTL works, but is supposed to require something like $120/brl oil to be profitable? If you consider peat a renewable fuel, you should apply for political asylum in Finland. They'll love you. Elsewhere, no so much I don't have a problem with burning glycerine for heat, but the EU apparently does. They fail to classify it as a renewable fuel, even if it comes out of veggie oil biodiesel production as a waste byproduct.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

15 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Corn stover IS tilled into the ground every year. It preserves the tilth of the soil and degrades. I have seen trees growing in a line on dead trees in rain forests. Plants feed off of dead plants sometimes even without normal soil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilth

What I say is obfuscated by the crop rotation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilth#Rotation

That is, corn is not grown on the same patch every year

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

29 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

CNG and LNG are a growing truck fuel around the world. If something is better let it compete. Show me. I have heard many people promoting methanol but no results for transportation. 

Japan designated DME as their official diesel replacement fuel for heavy machinery. At some point, Mack Trucks in US jumped onto the bandwagon. Dunno if they are still there. CNG is OK, but rather bulky for the same amount of energy.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uCneRbf6GGW2Ut2ddqMRfWEywev5QvT4Y-yasGAyINo/edit

Mack Trucks natural gas models available with new technologies

 Save to read listLNG Industry, Wednesday, 04 March 2015 16:15

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

26 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uCneRbf6GGW2Ut2ddqMRfWEywev5QvT4Y-yasGAyINo/edit

Mack Trucks natural gas models available with new technologies

 Save to read listLNG Industry, Wednesday, 04 March 2015 16:15

Aha! Compare the size of the tanks on the two trucks.

The site you give appears to be a chronological news feed.  Which makes them somewhat less useful. Note the top news item they have right now though

https://www.lngindustry.com/liquid-natural-gas/25112021/ham-delivers-lng-refuelling-service-station-to-novatek/

So, there is portable LNG-powered machinery smaller than a ship in Poland right now? I am at a loss to guess what it is. Do you know?

Edited November 26, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[ronwagn + 6,290]

19 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

What I say is obfuscated by the crop rotation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilth#Rotation

That is, corn is not grown on the same patch every year

I live in an area where corn and soybeans are grown intensively. Crop rotation is a good idea, as is using clover or other cover crop in the late fall. In reality, most farmers do not follow what others consider best practices. They do what works for them. They often use too much pesticide or nitrogen fertilizer. 

Do they follow the crop rotation in Russia and use cover crops as you imply? If so, good for them. The water systems of Russia benefit as does the ground water. 

Another advanced form of large scale agriculture is called no till, which recommended by the experts but not often used. Then there is the use of too much chemical control of weeds and insecticide which also pollute the water and kill honeybees etc. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

9 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uCneRbf6GGW2Ut2ddqMRfWEywev5QvT4Y-yasGAyINo/edit

Mack Trucks natural gas models available with new technologies

 Save to read listLNG Industry, Wednesday, 04 March 2015 16:15

The fishing document on top remains a mystery. Did not know Canada had wild sturgeon

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

12 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I live in an area where corn and soybeans are grown intensively. Crop rotation is a good idea, as is using clover or other cover crop in the late fall. In reality, most farmers do not follow what others consider best practices. They do what works for them. They often use too much pesticide or nitrogen fertilizer. 

Do they follow the crop rotation in Russia and use cover crops as you imply? If so, good for them. The water systems of Russia benefit as does the ground water. 

Another advanced form of large scale agriculture is called no till, which recommended by the experts but not often used. Then there is the use of too much chemical control of weeds and insecticide which also pollute the water and kill honeybees etc. 

I don't really know what they do. Russian prowess in agriculture is a very new thing, thanks to your 2014 sanctions collapsing the ruble. Before 2014, Russia was a net importer of agricultural goods. Now - #1 worldwide in wheat and other grains, kicking the US off the top spot. See how karma is a bitch? I suspect Russian agriculture to be a lot more like Canadian than yours. Corn only grows in southermost regions and sugarcane not at all, so there is not too much to till.

https://www.agriculture.com/crops/wheat/goodbye-kansas-wheat

Edited November 26, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[turbguy + 1,401]

3 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

By that I mean that novel microbes are scary.

We ain't seen nothin' yet from genetic engineering.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

18 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Aha! Compare the size of the tanks on the two trucks.

The site you give appears to be a chronological news feed.  Which makes them somewhat less useful. Note the top news item they have right now though

https://www.lngindustry.com/liquid-natural-gas/25112021/ham-delivers-lng-refuelling-service-station-to-novatek/

So, there is a portable LNG-powered machinery smaller than a ship right now? I am at a loss to guess what it is. Do you know?

Hundreds of thousands of CNG trucks, cars, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

2 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Hundreds of thousands of CNG trucks, cars, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

Yes, but those things be LNG, not CNG. Also, in Poland, of all places?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle#LNG_as_an_auto_fuel

seems to suggest that the winning usage is storing LNG at the gas station, but pump it as CNG in a hybrid LCNG scheme.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

7 minutes ago, turbguy said:

We ain't seen nothin' yet from genetic engineering.

Verboten! in Europe altogether

[ronwagn + 6,290]

28 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

I don't really know what they do. Russian prowess in agriculture is a very new thing, thanks to your 2014 sanctions collapsing the ruble. Before 2014, Russia was a net importer of agricultural goods. Now - #1 worldwide in wheat and other grains, kicking the US off the top spot. See how karma is a bitch? I suspect Russian agriculture to be a lot more like Canadian than yours. Corn only grows in southermost regions and sugarcane not at all, so there is not too much to till.

https://www.agriculture.com/crops/wheat/goodbye-kansas-wheat

Good for wheat after taking part of Ukraine, especially Crimea. 

https://www.tractorjunction.com/blog/top-10-agricultural-producing-countries-in-the-world/ America is number 2 Russia is number 5 overall. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

17 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Yes, but those things be LNG, not CNG. Also, in Poland, of all places?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle#LNG_as_an_auto_fuel

seems to suggest that the winning usage is storing LNG at the gas station, but pump it as CNG in a hybrid LCNG scheme.

LNG and CNG is used including in Russia. http://cngeurope.com/countries/russia/

https://lngprime.com/asia/russias-rosneft-plans-lng-filling-stations/21687/

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

23 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Good for wheat after taking part of Ukraine, especially Crimea. 

https://www.tractorjunction.com/blog/top-10-agricultural-producing-countries-in-the-world/ America is number 2 Russia is number 5 overall. 

Crimea is not very agriculturally significant, with exception of wine. Very little water, lots of rocks.

Yes, US also does a lot of corn and soy and Russia just grains. Too cold, but hoping for some help from global warming, should there be any truth to that.

Fun fact - Crimea is at the same latitude as the northermost part of US-Canadian border.

Most promising for bulk agriculture is the soil type called the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem

some of which is in Canada, but most in Russia and Ukraine.

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

23 hours ago, ronwagn said:

LNG and CNG is used including in Russia. http://cngeurope.com/countries/russia/

https://lngprime.com/asia/russias-rosneft-plans-lng-filling-stations/21687/

I am not available of any road vehicles that use LNG directly, though. They do have a railroad locomotive that does.

UPDATE: https://uic.org/events/IMG/pdf/03_rzd_natural_gas_trains_ivanov.pdf

They are gas turbine / electric hybrids, so it is just a ploy to reintroduce turbine locomotives to haul more freight.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[NickW + 2,714]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:55 AM, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Nothing unsustainable about the process itself. If only weren't oil and gas companies who license it so cheap and went after the cheapest feedstock they could find. Which happens to be palm oil right now.

Biogas does not really use "waste streams" like you think they do. In reality, do they use misc. plant matter that you could also feed to livestock. The German nickname for a biogas digester plant is Betonkuh (concrete cow) It really is an emulation of ruminant digestion system at the moment. Possibly it may eat what pigs would, but that's about it. So, there is no way to get it to digest what a similar process inside a real cow or pig already did. I presume that to be the basis of the whole "cow fart greenhouse effect" scare.

 a lot of biogas produced in the UK is from household organic wastes and waste from intensive farming (poultry and pigs) The only alternatives are composting. Spreading raw on the land causes loads of odour complaint issues. Anerobic digestion to produce biogas is very neet. 

You get a good supply of gas. Estimates are the Uk has a potential for about 150 Twh a year (1/6th of domestic needs) 

The residue, with most of the nutrients retained is easy to spread and low odour. 

[turbguy + 1,401]

11 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Verboten! in Europe altogether

The rise of agriculture and the influence of genetics and culture (gene–culture coevolution) continue to affect modern humans through alterations in nutrition, a predisposition to obesity, and even exposure to new diseases.

Selective "breeding" of crop cultures has made a truly dramatic impact, already.

It is just a slower process compared to what lies ahead.

Europe has participated, and will participate in the future.

It does not have to involve foodstuffs.

It will affect the energy industry.

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by turbguy

[SUZNV + 1,197]

19 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

No, I am not American enough to confuse gasoline with actual gas. Pyrolysis into syngas followed by GTL works, but is supposed to require something like $120/brl oil to be profitable? If you consider peat a renewable fuel, you should apply for political asylum in Finland. They'll love you. Elsewhere, no so much I don't have a problem with burning glycerine for heat, but the EU apparently does. They fail to classify it as a renewable fuel, even if it comes out of veggie oil biodiesel production as a waste byproduct.

Is there a reason why EU wouldn't classify glycerine as renewable?

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

13 hours ago, NickW said:

 a lot of biogas produced in the UK is from household organic wastes and waste from intensive farming (poultry and pigs) The only alternatives are composting. Spreading raw on the land causes loads of odour complaint issues. Anerobic digestion to produce biogas is very neet. 

You get a good supply of gas. Estimates are the Uk has a potential for about 150 Twh a year (1/6th of domestic needs) 

The residue, with most of the nutrients retained is easy to spread and low odour. 

Birdshit (guano) is pretty much wet mineral ash. There is nothing left in there to burn, not to speak of  gassing.

Do you have a separate collection for compostables, like grass left from mowing lawns? If yes, this is what they throw in there. No current biogas setup I am aware of works on pure refuse, only on a small fraction.

Unlikely that you get far making biogas with human or pig crap alone also, but you can burn these if they are dry enough. Works about the same as peat or lowest grade lignite. Interestingly enough, GreenPeace objects to trash incineration in only two countries - Russia and UK. In UK case, this appears to be due to availability of household-scale incinerators.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

3 hours ago, SUZNV said:

Is there a reason why EU wouldn't classify glycerine as renewable?

Nobody is actually interested in renewable transition? It is purely a neocolonial plot of taxing the developing economies for developing, while also sneakily expanding the domestic taxation base at the cost of the middle class.