America's Power Grid is Increasingly Unreliable

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-power-grid-is-increasingly-unreliable-11645196772

America’s Power Grid Is Increasingly Unreliable

Behind a rising number of outages are new stresses on the system caused by aging power lines, a changing climate and a power-plant fleet rapidly going green

 

Large, sustained outages have occurred with increasing frequency in the U.S. over the past two decades, according to a Wall Street Journal review of federal data. In 2000, there were fewer than two dozen major disruptions, the data shows. In 2020, the number surpassed 180.

Utility customers on average experienced just over eight hours of power interruptions in 2020, more than double the amount in 2013, when the government began tracking outage lengths. The data doesn’t include 2021, but those numbers are certain to follow the trend after a freak freeze in Texas, a major hurricane in New Orleans, wildfires in California and a heat wave in the Pacific Northwest left millions in the dark for days.

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-power-grid-is-increasingly-unreliable-11645196772

The data doesn’t include 2021, but those numbers are certain to follow the trend after a freak freeze in Texas, a major hurricane in New Orleans, wildfires in California and a heat wave in the Pacific Northwest left millions in the dark for days.

 

 

None of which have to do with green energy.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,042]

8 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Behind a rising number of outages are new stresses on the system caused by aging power lines, a changing climate and a power-plant fleet rapidly going green

 

37 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

None of which have to do with green energy.

The same trend is evident in Australia.

In January the Australian Energy Council pointed out that before 2017 the National Energy Market Operator (basically teh East Coast grid including Tasmania) rarely issued what are known as intervention orders. However, the AEC, which represents the biggest operators in the energy market, says that now these orders are almost commonplace and have become seemingly the default way of managing the market. These orders may involve directing a gas generator to remain in the market, or a diesel generator to continue operating because the AEMO has realised that there is not enough reserve capacity. The safety net if something goes wrong has become too thin, and more firm generation has to be made available.

This is the obvious and frequently predicted result of loading more renewable generation on networks while shutting down the old, reliable fossil fuel generators. Prices go up (albeit they are now off a peak of 2018 in Australia) and reliability goes down. Sure the natural events noted by ronwagn do not involve renewables, as Jay says, but that misses the point. The system is less able to cope with the stresses of such events because its far less robust and prone to falling over all by itself, even without major stress events. The government in Australia is intervening in the market to build gas generators, although I don't think they are building enough to really make up for the expected shortfall, especially now that another big coal-fired plant has announced it will close in just a couple of years. A worry. How much are diesel generators?   

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

4 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

The same trend is evident in Australia.

In January the Australian Energy Council pointed out that before 2017 the National Energy Market Operator (basically teh East Coast grid including Tasmania) rarely issued what are known as intervention orders. However, the AEC, which represents the biggest operators in the energy market, says that now these orders are almost commonplace and have become seemingly the default way of managing the market. These orders may involve directing a gas generator to remain in the market, or a diesel generator to continue operating because the AEMO has realised that there is not enough reserve capacity. The safety net if something goes wrong has become too thin, and more firm generation has to be made available.

This is the obvious and frequently predicted result of loading more renewable generation on networks while shutting down the old, reliable fossil fuel generators. Prices go up (albeit they are now off a peak of 2018 in Australia) and reliability goes down. Sure the natural events noted by ronwagn do not involve renewables, as Jay says, but that misses the point. The system is less able to cope with the stresses of such events because its far less robust and prone to falling over all by itself, even without major stress events. The government in Australia is intervening in the market to build gas generators, although I don't think they are building enough to really make up for the expected shortfall, especially now that another big coal-fired plant has announced it will close in just a couple of years. A worry. How much are diesel generators?   

No power outages in Australia have been due to renewables, they have all been due to coal, gas plant or transmission line failures. However the big batteries have prevented outages and I just love how you claim renewables increase the cost then note that the cost has been decreasing since 2018. Since 2018 renewables have entered the market in strength with gas power shrinking to a fraction of what it was in 2018.

It isn't surprising that AEC is complaining about renewables taking their business away from them. As to true grid reliability concerns, those come from the grid operator and they have expressed no concern.

That new gas plant will never be needed. You already have a lot of excess gas capacity.

Australian grid:

https://opennem.org.au/energy/au/?range=1y&interval=1w

Since 2018 renewables have increased by 60% and gas has decreased by 60%:

https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/default/files/Australian Energy Statistics 2020 Energy Update Report_0.pdf

Electricity spot prices for renewable rich SA and Vic decreasing while FF powered QLD is increasing:

https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/annual-count-of-30-minute-prices-below-0-mwh

https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-north-south-divide-electricity-price-jumps-in-coal-dependent-states/

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,042]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:56 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

No power outages in Australia have been due to renewables, they have all been due to coal, gas plant or transmission line failures. However the big batteries have prevented outages and I just love how you claim renewables increase the cost then note that the cost has been decreasing since 2018.

Jay - in fact you've hit on all the points I've been writing about recently, and I'm well aware of the figures you quote. They make no difference at all to the point I was making. I wasn't talking about outages. You don't get them much in Aus - and when you do its due to a hot summer - because the grid tends to have strong administration and regulation. Outages seemed to occur far more often in the US than here even before renewables. The point I was making was that the grid is becoming notably more unstable, and requiring a lot more intervention to keep going. That instability is in part due to renewables but also due to the retirement of reliable power plants - those closures are, in turn, PARTLY due to renewables, but also to the reluctance to build replacements due to the frothing at the mouth greenies who will tie the project up in legal objections for years. As for your point on prices as I said in the post they are "off a peak" in 2018. The peak occurred due to coal plant closures - as I noted in the original post, although a part is also due to renewables. Yes they have been falling somewhat since then mostly due to a major investment cycle in the network (poles and wires) working its way through the system. 

Now go back and look at the figures you cite.. the surprising point for me was that renewables, less the dispatchable hydro and the likes of bioenergy, is just 12 per cent. Admittedly the figures are a few years old but why so low given the various legislative requirements? 

Jay, if you had read my post you would have save yourself a lot of trouble.         

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

9 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Now go back and look at the figures you cite.. the surprising point for me was that renewables, less the dispatchable hydro and the likes of bioenergy, is just 12 per cent. Admittedly the figures are a few years old but why so low given the various legislative requirements? 

Jay, if you had read my post you would have save yourself a lot of trouble.         

Oh dear Mark, again with the refusal to accept current numbers. Do you spread misinformation and lies in all your writing by focusing on ancient numbers?

The current numbers for the past year, as shown in my post, are 26% for solar and wind combined. Australia is running ahead of its renewable energy target.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,539]

47 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Oh dear Mark, again with the refusal to accept current numbers. Do you spread misinformation and lies in all your writing by focusing on ancient numbers?

The current numbers for the past year, as shown in my post, are 26% for solar and wind combined.

Interesting conversation,dancing with numbers. Below have a read, the utter collapse of the European continent energy infrastructure. Collapsed into two words that will live in infamy.

                    GREEN ENERGY 

Germany’s Maxed-Out Grid Is Causing Trouble Across Europe

 

Northern Germany can’t use all the renewable energy it’s making. Neither can its neighbors.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/germanys-stressed-grid-is-causing-trouble-across-europe

The Wind Turbine Failures Behind Europe's Energy Crisis Are a Warning for America

How Europe Triggered An Energy Crisis, And Now Is Paying Dearly For It

https://www.forbes.com/sites/llewellynking/2021/11/27/how-europe-triggered-an-energy-crisis-and-now-is-paying-dearly-for-it/?sh=5dea764c1290

Europe Energy Crisis Goes Global

To see climate politics turn really crazy, add fuel shortages and high prices.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-energy-crisis-goes-global-shortages-natural-gas-wind-solar-coal-russia-china-germany-11641335775

Europe Sleepwalked Into an Energy Crisis That Could Last Years

With its natural gas stockpiles running dangerously low, the European Union is at the mercy of two wily forces—Putin and the weather.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-04/europe-s-energy-supply-crisis-has-the-eu-at-the-mercy-of-putin-and-the-weather

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

8 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Interesting conversation,dancing with numbers. Below have a read, the utter collapse of the European continent energy infrastructure. Collapsed into two words that will live in infamy.

                    GREEN ENERGY 

Germany’s Maxed-Out Grid Is Causing Trouble Across Europe

 

Northern Germany can’t use all the renewable energy it’s making. Neither can its neighbors.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/germanys-stressed-grid-is-causing-trouble-across-europe

 

Your first point is called an energy glut. That is a good thing.

European wind power generation was close to all-time records on Feb. 16, averaging 115.6 GW with an hourly peak of 127.4 GW, TSO data aggregated by WindEurope and analyzed by S&P Global Platts show.Total generation of 2.775 TWh over the 24-hour period covered 28.6% of power demand compared to a record 28.9% on March 11, 2021, the daily data showed.

Wind was forecast to remain very strong over the coming days, deflating spot power prices, but overall levels remained elevated due to nuclear production being down around 10 GW year on year, low hydro and high generation costs for fossil-fired power plants due to elevated gas, coal and EUA carbon prices.

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/021722-european-wind-narrowly-misses-all-time-high-to-average-116-gw-feb16

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[Boat + 1,315]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:42 PM, markslawson said:

 

The same trend is evident in Australia.

In January the Australian Energy Council pointed out that before 2017 the National Energy Market Operator (basically teh East Coast grid including Tasmania) rarely issued what are known as intervention orders. However, the AEC, which represents the biggest operators in the energy market, says that now these orders are almost commonplace and have become seemingly the default way of managing the market. These orders may involve directing a gas generator to remain in the market, or a diesel generator to continue operating because the AEMO has realised that there is not enough reserve capacity. The safety net if something goes wrong has become too thin, and more firm generation has to be made available.

This is the obvious and frequently predicted result of loading more renewable generation on networks while shutting down the old, reliable fossil fuel generators. Prices go up (albeit they are now off a peak of 2018 in Australia) and reliability goes down. Sure the natural events noted by ronwagn do not involve renewables, as Jay says, but that misses the point. The system is less able to cope with the stresses of such events because its far less robust and prone to falling over all by itself, even without major stress events. The government in Australia is intervening in the market to build gas generators, although I don't think they are building enough to really make up for the expected shortfall, especially now that another big coal-fired plant has announced it will close in just a couple of years. A worry. How much are diesel generators?   

If no nat gas was allowed to be exported unless there was ample reserve for Australian citizens in both fuel and turbines your problems would vanish. Any brownout could be a billion dollar fine. If a similar plan was enacted in Texas the weatherization would begin soon after. You just got to put people first. Lawyers, accountants and shareholders second. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Boat

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, Boat said:

If no nat gas was allowed to be exported unless there was ample reserve for Australian citizens in bot . h fuel and turbines your problems would vanish. Any brownout could be a billion dollar fine. If a similar plan was enacted in Texas the weatherization would begin soon after. You just goput people first. Lawyers, accountants and shareholders second. 

I don't really see ANY ONE WHO IS COMMENTING THAT UNDERSTANDS THE PHYSICS BEHIND THE PROBLEM.  Very simple (Newtonian) grid and idiots are trying to prop it up with electronics based on quantum mechanics. Synchronous wind turbines cause no problems  and Dc motor generator sets don't either; both are Newtonian designs.  We still use round wheels after 1000's of years and they work just as intended. We shouldn't use anything guaranteed   by the laws of physics not to work. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/73476.pdf  These fools are trying. It's over engineering.

[Starschy + 211]

That record Wind Power can‘t be used is known in Europe for at least 10 years Main issue are to small Powerlines from North to South. They are in the making but progress is slow. China would have solved the issue 5 years ago.

A second issue is that you cant stop Nuclear Power when you have strong Winds. The Grid need a constant and regular flow which is the Main Problem with Wind.

But terms like collapse are complete out of any reality. The power is flowing.

[Starschy + 211]

The US Grid is very different.

Cities in Western Europe, Powerlines are not seen in the City because they are at least 3m under Earth. Trees near Railway tracks. France and Switzerland have laws that Trees must be 25 m away from Tracks or cut back. Therefore power issues with the Railway is very seldom but not in Germany.

US Grid lacks interconnection between States as Example Texas. A secure Grid in an average State like Kansas would require three interconnection from Neighbor States.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Starschy

[markslawson + 1,042]

22 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Oh dear Mark, again with the refusal to accept current numbers. Do you spread misinformation and lies in all your writing by focusing on ancient numbers?

The current numbers for the past year, as shown in my post, are 26% for solar and wind combined. Australia is running ahead of its renewable energy target.

Jay - again with the completely unjustified insults.. you're quoting two different types of figures. But I see you've cleared up one point for me.. the more recent figures for the grid indicate that wind and solar are about where I would expect them to be. Far from denying anything I was surprised the 2018-19 figures were so low.. but never mind, they are not relevant to the point I was making. I see you tried to get out of the point about stability by saying that it is a matter for the grid operator to complain about. No it isn't. The underlying problem is that unlike the US, Australia doesn't have a capacity market (one US hold-out on capacity markets is Texas). But anyway, that's it..  If you refuse to accept the point about stability and prices that's up to you. Time to end the debate.  

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

15 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Jay - again with the completely unjustified insults.. you're quoting two different types of figures. But I see you've cleared up one point for me.. the more recent figures for the grid indicate that wind and solar are about where I would expect them to be. Far from denying anything I was surprised the 2018-19 figures were so low.. but never mind, they are not relevant to the point I was making. I see you tried to get out of the point about stability by saying that it is a matter for the grid operator to complain about. No it isn't. The underlying problem is that unlike the US, Australia doesn't have a capacity market (one US hold-out on capacity markets is Texas). But anyway, that's it..  If you refuse to accept the point about stability and prices that's up to you. Time to end the debate.  

The production figures I am quoting are exactly the same thing, just from different years.  It is absolutely the responsibility of the grid operator to complain about grid instability but instead of complaining they are encouraging renewables and the result is that the cost of electricity is decreasing. How long are you going to keep running away from reality?

Edited February 21, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,042]

20 hours ago, Boat said:

If no nat gas was allowed to be exported unless there was ample reserve for Australian citizens in both fuel and turbines your problems would vanish. Any brownout could be a billion dollar fine. If a similar plan was enacted in Texas the weatherization would begin soon after. You just got to put people first. Lawyers, accountants and shareholders second. 

You've hit on what was a major debate in Aus, that of reserving a part of local gas production for local markets. I have forgotten where the argument ended but they still don't do it and there would be difficulties. Firstly Australia's LNG exports are massive - double the value of thermal coal exports. So we wouldn't need all of it. We could simply buy the stuff but until recently, would you believe, there were no facilities for importing LNG near the major population centres. Even now I don't think the terminals are finished. The LNG production trains are all well to the North on the East and West coast with no pipeline connection. Then there is the problem that the LNG is sold forward on long term contracts and, as I understand it, there is no spare capacity for Europe which needs gas real bad and has import facilities. There is domestic gas production near the population centres but greenies keep on blocking its expansion.   

[nsdp + 449]

 Mark the problem is managers and engineers, to a lesser extent, are ignorant concerning research  that has been done in the last 10 years.  The original study was done 10 years ago with what was then state of the art wind turbines and solar and batteries. Wind and solar power paired with storage could power grid 99.9 percent of the time  PJM is the largest grid control area in North America. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210133507.htm

Southwest Powerpool  frequently goes over 80% renewable they go over 80% wind and when penetration on a 24 hour basis. How Southwest Power Pool Sets Renewable Records Daily https://acore.org/how-southwest-power-pool-sets-renewable-records-daily/  Total 2021 production(8760 four) was second highest at 33%. Coal was 35.%. https://www.spp.org/about-us/fast-fact  SPP's dispatchers sat down applied the laws of physics and solved their problem even  they go over 80% with both nukes running.   It is amatter of wanting to solve the problem.

[markslawson + 1,042]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:22 PM, nsdp said:

Mark the problem is managers and engineers, to a lesser extent, are ignorant concerning research  that has been done in the last 10 years.  The original study was done 10 years ago with what was then state of the art wind turbines and solar and batteries. Wind and solar power paired with storage could power grid 99.9 percent of the time  PJM is the largest grid control area in North America. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210133507.htm

I only just saw this.. I'm not sure what this has to do with the debate, as I was originally discussing grid stability with renewables. None the less it is worth pointing out that there is nothing in current trends that would suggest this modelling is right, as far as prices are concerned. Worldwide renewables are associated with higher prices. In the US, power prices in green-mad California are notably higher than the rest of the country. In Europe even more green mad Germany has the highest power prices on the continent.  Same with Spain. As I've pointed out in other posts much of this may not be directly due to green power but the retirement of viable conventional (fossil-fuel) power, or nuclear in Germany's case, due to green activism. As for the claim about being able to power the grid 99.9 per cent of the time, I refer you to the many micro grids which have converted to renewable energy. These are for remote communities in Australia or islands off the Alaskan coast and so on. Best I've heard of to date has been renewables accounting for an average of 70 per cent.. and they still have to retain the conventional diesel generation backup. For major grids this would be essential and never mind the modelling. That means renewables are hopelessly uneconomic. We are paying extra for the reduction in emissions, As for the 100 per cent figure you quote that happens all the time at any level of renewables. The key figure is the average.. hope that helps.    

Edited February 24, 2022 by markslawson
correcting error..

[nsdp + 449]

Mark catch up to what has happened in submarine propulsion in the last 27 years. This is an advance of the Apollo 5 program sixty years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine    and then    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitsubishiheavyindustries/2020/03/13/in-utah-hydrogen-and-a-massive-salt-dome-are-winning-the-west-for-renewable-energy/?sh=3d2e50105c52  Then read this to see how far you are behind the curve. https://ieefa.org/wind-generation-sets-record-in-u-s-southwest-power-pool/

Six facilities as described by Forbes should have covered the entire Feb.15,2021 ERCOT storm outages.   It would be CCGT units modified for 100% hydrogen/oxygen feed so 0 air pollution and cheap using reconditioned gas turbines no longer air worthy. (thousands of them around with all the jets parked) For example a 1958 T-56 turbine modified to 100% oxygen feed would remove 11 of 14 compressor stages and increasing power from 3.75mw to 8.2 mw for no increase in fuel.

The biggest advantage of wind and solar is they are ENDOTHERMIC rather than EXOTHERMIC as all combustion plants are.  They cool the  planet  rather than over heat it. No exhaust steam from cooling towers for all plants including nuclear(75% wasted), plus no CO2 and methane from coal, oil and natural gas. you have a lot of catching up to do.

[markslawson + 1,042]

23 hours ago, nsdp said:

Mark catch up to what has happened in submarine propulsion in the last 27 years. This is an advance of the Apollo 5 program sixty years ago

nsdp - again although the stuff you quote is very interesting it - the sub stuff was of particular interest - has nothing to do with the thread and very little to do with what I posted. There are all sorts of technologies out there that store energy, the trouble is that they are not being used at all on grids. Why not? My guess is that they are far too expensive. Look at the cost for the sub, half a billion euros. Obviously that's not all the power storage system, but there must be a reason for it not being used instead of batteries and if its not price then what? I'm well aware of the arguments for wind power. The problem remains of integrating them onto a system that delivers power 24/7 just like grids use to. In any case, the conventional generators will still be needed, and never mind the fancy storage systems..    

[Boat + 1,315]

4 hours ago, markslawson said:

nsdp - again although the stuff you quote is very interesting it - the sub stuff was of particular interest - has nothing to do with the thread and very little to do with what I posted. There are all sorts of technologies out there that store energy, the trouble is that they are not being used at all on grids. Why not? My guess is that they are far too expensive. Look at the cost for the sub, half a billion euros. Obviously that's not all the power storage system, but there must be a reason for it not being used instead of batteries and if its not price then what? I'm well aware of the arguments for wind power. The problem remains of integrating them onto a system that delivers power 24/7 just like grids use to. In any case, the conventional generators will still be needed, and never mind the fancy storage systems..    

Solar and batteries just for growth for electric cars seems like a huge endeavor. Then you can add solar and batteries for all AC. Just in Texas alone this could be a lot of massive projects taking several years. They haven’t even built the battery plants yet. Renewables or some kind of greener solution will continue to be worked on over at least a decade to get the other crap done. At least that’s how I look at it. 

[nsdp + 449]

Mark how many years have you spent behind the dispatchers desk or working as an operator in a power plant. I can only think of one other poster heee that has real world in the field experience  The biggest problem in the real world is a bunch of engineers with blinders on. The submarine example is pertinent if you go though the  research at the University of Freiburg.   If you go though their papers , you would find out that Texas already sufficient hydrogen storage in place that if it had been connected to the proper class of CCGT the Texas freeze last year would have been a minor inconvenience.   I suggest you get  Dr. Joshua Partheepan's doctoral dissertation from the West Texas A&M part of Texas A&M. They have been doing renewable research since the Carter Adm. He and I  were speakers and panelists at the 2016 EU Renewables Conference in Dusseldorf  

Cost of a pair of salt caverns and hard ware for 160 GWH would be about $30 million based on Air Products hydrogen facility located at Spindle top. https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2020/01/f70/fcto-fcs-h2-scale-2019-workshop-19-meeks.pdf

Look at page 8 for data of Spindletop, Clemens Dome and Moss Bluff.  Total storage would be about 330 GWH. REad Dr. Meeks work to see where the cutting edge is.   We have come a long way since 1900.

Just what operational experience and iEEE certification do you have. I got my certification in Power Generation and Transmission from IEEE in 1975.  Got an IBEW Journeyman operators card in 1977.  I worked on the floor in dispatching at the Energy Control Center and Greens Bayou generation plant. I was not a cubicle engineer.

Edited March 1, 2022 by nsdp
credit for Dr. Meeks

[markslawson + 1,042]

19 hours ago, nsdp said:

Mark how many years have you spent behind the dispatchers desk or working as an operator in a power plant. I can only think of one other poster heee that has real world in the field experience  The biggest problem in the real world is a bunch of engineers with blinders on.

nsdp - its not me who is failing to see the technology but you who is failing to see the commercial realities. I didn't ask for for more information about the fuel cell technology I wanted to know why it isn't being used on grids. So why isn't it being used? Never mind yet more stories about salt domes and hydrogen. I've heard them. It's been more than 30 years since everyone started talking about intermittent power, so how come these technologies aren't hooked up and working? This is exactly the same point I made before. If you want to impress me with your real world experience then answer the question, and don't point to yet more technology. . 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Terra-Gen brings 560MWh California battery project online

 

Terra-Gen’s Valley Center Battery Storage Project, San Diego, California. Image: Terra-Gen.

Renewables developer Terra-Gen’s 140MW/560MWh Valley Center Battery Storage Project in California is now fully online, the company has announced.

So many big batteries now in California I have lost track of them.

[nsdp + 449]

5 hours ago, markslawson said:

nsdp - its not me who is failing to see the technology but you who is failing to see the commercial realities. I didn't ask for for more information about the fuel cell technology I wanted to know why it isn't being used on grids. So why isn't it being used? Never mind yet more stories about salt domes and hydrogen. I've heard them. It's been more than 30 years since everyone started talking about intermittent power, so how come these technologies aren't hooked up and working? This is exactly the same point I made before. If you want bulletins. to impress me with your real world experience then answer the question, and don't point to yet more technology. .

Stupid fools called MBA's the  main reason.   second reason patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees.   No body else could patent or develop. And Toshiba wanted a princely sum.   If you didn't know that , you haven't a clue of what is state of the art and what  intellectual property rights are.   Third stupid engineers who don't follow technology in patent bulletins. Look at my patents I have listed previously and you will find Toshiba's patent listed in prior art.

Edited March 2, 2022 by nsdp
correct grammar.

[notsonice + 1,069]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Terra-Gen brings 560MWh California battery project online

 

Terra-Gen’s Valley Center Battery Storage Project, San Diego, California. Image: Terra-Gen.

Renewables developer Terra-Gen’s 140MW/560MWh Valley Center Battery Storage Project in California is now fully online, the company has announced.

So many big batteries now in California I have lost track of them.

Pretty small footprint for 560 MWH. 75 semi truck loads for the battery housings/infrastructure  and maybe another 50 truck loads for the batteries themselves. 1 year build time. Impressive