America's Power Grid is Increasingly Unreliable

[notsonice + 1,063]

2 hours ago, nsdp said:

Stupid fools called MBA's the  main reason.   second reason  Any Western product is free for knocking off.  when they failed to pay renewal fees.   No body else could patent or develop. And Toshiba wanted a princely sum.   If you didn't know that , you haven't a clue of what is state of the art and what  intellectual property rights are.   Third stupid engineers who don't follow technology in patent bulletins. Look at my patents I have listed previously and you will find Toshiba's patent listed in prior art.

 patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees. ??? Patents last for 20 years. That is it

[Eric Gagen + 713]

8 hours ago, notsonice said:

 patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees. ??? Patents last for 20 years. That is it

Now ask yourself this:  If those patents were so valuable, why didn't they renew them? 

 

The answer is that making, storing and transporting hydrogen as a fuel is incredibly expensive.  Being able to burn it turned out to be the cheap and easy part.  Since the other parts haven't been solved quickly and cheaply the patents involving it aren't valuable.  

[notsonice + 1,063]

1 hour ago, Eric Gagen said:

Now ask yourself this: If those patents were so valuable, why didn't they renew them? 

 

The answer is that making, storing and transporting hydrogen as a fuel is incredibly expensive.  Being able to burn it turned out to be the cheap and easy part.  Since the other parts haven't been solved quickly and cheaply the patents involving it aren't valuable.  

If those patents were so valuable, why didn't they renew them? ....you cannot renew them past 20 years. 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

1 hour ago, notsonice said:

If those patents were so valuable, why didn't they renew them? ....you cannot renew them past 20 years. 

Ah - ok - I thought they were extendible for a longer time period.

[nsdp + 449]

Law is different for each country .  As a Japanese company Toshiba has 20 years before renewal.  Rest of the world gets 5 years before  you need to pay renewal fees in Japan

4 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

Now ask yourself this:  If those patents were so valuable, why didn't they renew them? 

 

The answer is that making, storing and transporting hydrogen as a fuel is incredibly expensive.  Being able to burn it turned out to be the cheap and easy part.  Since the other parts haven't been solved quickly and cheaply the patents involving it aren't valuable.  

.

Japanese Patent #6308479 - Annuity Fee Notice - VIA EMAIL ONLY

Friendly Reminder

 

As per our email of December 20, 2021, your Japanese Patent Annuity Fee is coming due.

 

Please provide your instruction and funding ($650 US) prior to March 14, 2022 if you wish to maintain this Japanese Patent.

 

Please note that to ensure practice protocols are met, we cannot accept instructions that are less than five business days prior to the government deadlines.

 As the time goes by the renewal fees go up for each additional 5 years. Max depending on country is 30-37 years.

Biggest problem is keeping the burn can from melting.  3700 K is above melting point  for most metal.  The next is burning a pure O2/H2 so you  don't get unmixed areas in the combustion flow  that explode later.  You cannot have any excess oxygen in the steam to prevent corrosion and you need a 100% mix for safety. Takes a special burner design for for O2 and H2 to to burn 100% leaving nothing but supercritical steam in a closed loop.  Vent to atmosphere and you don't care bout proper mixing.  Toshiba's problem was they could not get the mix fight. One of our group was head of the the Sandia combustion Laboratory so we were able to get time on Titan  at Oak Ridge in the small business incubator  . 

 

[notsonice + 1,063]

35 minutes ago, nsdp said:

Law is different for each country .  As a Japanese company Toshiba has 20 years before renewal.  Rest of the world gets 5 years before  you need to pay renewal fees in Japan

.

Japanese Patent #6308479 - Annuity Fee Notice - VIA EMAIL ONLY

Friendly Reminder

 

As per our email of December 20, 2021, your Japanese Patent Annuity Fee is coming due.

 

Please provide your instruction and funding ($650 US) prior to March 14, 2022 if you wish to maintain this Japanese Patent.

 

Please note that to ensure practice protocols are met, we cannot accept instructions that are less than five business days prior to the government deadlines.

 As the time goes by the renewal fees go up for each additional 5 years. Max depending on country is 30-37 years.

Biggest problem is keeping the burn can from melting.  3700 K is above melting point  for most metal.  The next is burning a pure O2/H2 so you  don't get unmixed areas in the combustion flow  that explode later.  You cannot have any excess oxygen in the steam to prevent corrosion and you need a 100% mix for safety. Takes a special burner design for for O2 and H2 to to burn 100% leaving nothing but supercritical steam in a closed loop.  Vent to atmosphere and you don't care bout proper mixing.  Toshiba's problem was they could not get the mix fight. One of our group was head of the the Sandia combustion Laboratory so we were able to get time on Titan  at Oak Ridge in the small business incubator  . 

 

Japan...the toshiba patents are only good for 20 years....I thought you were a lawyer????

(ii) Duration of a patent right

The period of a patent right is 20 years from the date of filing of the patent application. The period may be extended up to five years for pharmaceutical products and agricultural chemicals.

[markslawson + 1,042]

18 hours ago, nsdp said:

Stupid fools called MBA's the  main reason.   second reason patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees.   No body else could patent or develop. And Toshiba wanted a princely sum.  

I finally got you to answer the question, albeit with gratuitous, unnecessary and unjustified insults. Having finally got an answer, however, I don't believe it. Considering that they're already using batteries big time on grids, which everyone can see are completely inadequate for any grid level storage, then there must be reasons for their failure to use these fuel cells. But I think we've taken the discussion about as far as its going to go, especially as all I'll get is more insults, so I'll leave it with you. Sorry that no-one is interested i your patents. I won't respond further.. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

2 hours ago, nsdp said:

Law is different for each country .  As a Japanese company Toshiba has 20 years before renewal.  Rest of the world gets 5 years before  you need to pay renewal fees in Japan

.

Japanese Patent #6308479 - Annuity Fee Notice - VIA EMAIL ONLY

Friendly Reminder

 

As per our email of December 20, 2021, your Japanese Patent Annuity Fee is coming due.

 

Please provide your instruction and funding ($650 US) prior to March 14, 2022 if you wish to maintain this Japanese Patent.

 

Please note that to ensure practice protocols are met, we cannot accept instructions that are less than five business days prior to the government deadlines.

 As the time goes by the renewal fees go up for each additional 5 years. Max depending on country is 30-37 years.

Biggest problem is keeping the burn can from melting.  3700 K is above melting point  for most metal.  The next is burning a pure O2/H2 so you  don't get unmixed areas in the combustion flow  that explode later.  You cannot have any excess oxygen in the steam to prevent corrosion and you need a 100% mix for safety. Takes a special burner design for for O2 and H2 to to burn 100% leaving nothing but supercritical steam in a closed loop.  Vent to atmosphere and you don't care bout proper mixing.  Toshiba's problem was they could not get the mix fight. One of our group was head of the the Sandia combustion Laboratory so we were able to get time on Titan  at Oak Ridge in the small business incubator  . 

 

Patents in Japan only last max 20 years except for drugs and ag chemicals, the same as every WTO country.

(a) The duration of a patent right shall expire after a period of 20 years from the filing date of the patent application. Meanwhile, an extension of the patent term by up to five years may be available for patents for pharmaceuticals and agricultural chemicals on request if the prescribed requirements are fulfilled.

https://www.jpo.go.jp/e/faq/yokuaru/patent.html

Before 1 July 1995, the term of a Japanese patent was "15 years from the date of examined publication but not in excess of 20 years from the filing date". On I July 1995, this was changed to "20 years from the filing date". This also applies to all patents already in force on 1 July 1995.

Before 1994, the term of a Japanese utility model was "10 years from the date of examined publication but not in excess of 15 years from the filing date". In 1994, this was reduced to six years from the application date. On 1 April 2005, however, the Japanese utility model law was revised, increasing the term of utility models to 10 years from the application date. The new 10-year term applies to all utility models filed on or after 1 April 2005.

https://www.epo.org/searching-for-patents/helpful-resources/asian/japan/faq.html

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[nsdp + 449]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Patents in Japan only last max 20 years except for drugs and ag chemicals, the same as every WTO country.

(a) The duration of a patent right shall expire after a period of 20 years from the filing date of the patent application. Meanwhile, an extension of the patent term by up to five years may be available for patents for pharmaceuticals and agricultural chemicals on request if the prescribed requirements are fulfilled.

https://www.jpo.go.jp/e/faq/yokuaru/patent.html

Before 1 July 1995, the term of a Japanese patent was "15 years from the date of examined publication but not in excess of 20 years from the filing date". On I July 1995, this was changed to "20 years from the filing date". This also applies to all patents already in force on 1 July 1995.

Before 1994, the term of a Japanese utility model was "10 years from the date of examined publication but not in excess of 15 years from the filing date". In 1994, this was reduced to six years from the application date. On 1 April 2005, however, the Japanese utility model law was revised, increasing the term of utility models to 10 years from the application date. The new 10-year term applies to all utility models filed on or after 1 April 2005.

https://www.epo.org/searching-for-patents/helpful-resources/asian/japan/faq.html

 

 

Patent term adjustment (PTA) is a process carried out by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) that adds days to a patent's lifespan based on delays that occur from the USPTO during the patenting process.

A typical patent has a twenty-year term from the date that the patent is filed. Congress realized that the process for patent prosecution was taking a long time and eating into the lifespan of the patent, so they provided PTA as a way to increase the term of certain patents.https://www.upcounsel.com/patent-term-adjustment

Extensions are routine given the backlog in processing,    We received a 4 year extension  because the Patent office took more than three years from the original filling date in January  2013(priority date).  Patent was granted in Sept 2019. We have to pay a maintenance fee for the extension. Japan went 3 years over the WTO standard, hence the .   You can't know for sure how long a patent lasts.    You can guess using  the priority date  plus twenty years if the patent is granted within 3 years of the priority date.   If it is not "promptly issued then 3 years for regular patents and 4 years for plant and utility patents applies  unless the delay is 6 years or longer. Ours is 7 years by the patent clock. 

Under WTO rules we get a 3 year extension in Japan.   PRC is the only jurisdiction we do not qualify for the extension; they play "beat the clock".. The EU went over 9 years in January.

Vickers Speck304032018.pdf

Edited March 3, 2022 by nsdp

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

38 minutes ago, nsdp said:

Patent term adjustment (PTA) is a process carried out by the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) that adds days to a patent's lifespan based on delays that occur from the USPTO during the patenting process.

A typical patent has a twenty-year term from the date that the patent is filed. Congress realized that the process for patent prosecution was taking a long time and eating into the lifespan of the patent, so they provided PTA as a way to increase the term of certain patents.https://www.upcounsel.com/patent-term-adjustment

Extensions are routine given the backlog in processing,    We received a 4 year extension  because the Patent office took more than three years from the original filling date in January  2013(priority date).  Patent was granted in Sept 2019. We have to pay a maintenance fee for the extension. Japan went 3 years over the WTO standard, hence the .   You can't know for sure how long a patent lasts.    You can guess using  the priority date  plus twenty years if the patent is granted within 3 years of the priority date.   If it is not "promptly issued then 3 years for regular patents and 4 years for plant and utility patents applies  unless the delay is 6 years or longer. Ours is 7 years by the patent clock. 

Under WTO rules we get a 3 year extension in Japan.   PRC is the only jurisdiction we do not qualify for the extension; they play "beat the clock".. The EU went over 9 years in January.

Vickers Speck304032018.pdf 250.7 kB · 1 download

You said "patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees". However if the patent was issued in 1995 then the absolute latest it could exist, regardless of PTA, is 2015 and then anyone including Toshiba could continue development using the IP.  

I'm guessing this is the patent you are referring to, if so it had no PTA as it was issued in less than 3 years from filing, it expired in February of 2016:

 

• Hydrogen-combustion gas turbine plant

  Patent number: 5687559

  Abstract: A hydrogen-combustion gas turbine plant includes a first system for using inert gas as a working fluid, and a second system for using steam as a working fluid. The first system includes a compressor on a turbine shaft, a first heat exchanger, and a second heat exchanger. The first heat exchanger heats gas compressed by the compressor and supplies the compressed gas to a high pressure intake of a second turbine. The second heat exchanger cools gas exhausted from the second turbine and supplies the cooled gas to a low pressure intake of the compressor. The second system includes the first heat exchanger and the second heat exchanger. The first heat exchanger uses heat generated by combustion of a gas mixture including hydrogen and oxygen to heat the inert gas, and supplies steam resulting from the combustion to a high pressure intake of a first turbine.

  Type: Grant

  Filed: February 16, 1996

  Date of Patent: November 18, 1997

  Assignee: Kabushiki Kaisha Toshiba

  Inventor: Iwataro Sato

The problem with hydrogen is that the only way it is superior to natural gas is if it is blue or green hydrogen and both are still rare and expensive today let alone 7 years ago.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[nsdp + 449]

52 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You said "patent rights for hydrogen fueled gas turbines that Toshiba had in 1995 and they ran out in 2015 when they failed to pay renewal fees". However if the patent was issued in 1995 then the absolute latest it could exist, regardless of PTA, is 2015 and then anyone including Toshiba could continue development using the IP.  Toshiba continues to file hydrogen generator patents: https://patents.justia.com/assignee/toshiba-energy-systems-solutions-corporation

The problem with hydrogen is that the only way it is superior to natural gas is if it is blue or green hydrogen and both are still rare and expensive today let alone 7 years ago.

Jay did you read and comprehend  the descriptions?   I don't think so.  And obviously you never took thermodynamics or you would know that there a lot of differences besides flame color between NG and H2.   You can make hydrogen combustion and power generation endothermic as opposed to NG combustion and power generation  which is exothermic only.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 hour ago, nsdp said:

Jay did you read and comprehend  the descriptions?   I don't think so.  And obviously you never took thermodynamics or you would know that there a lot of differences besides flame color between NG and H2.   You can make hydrogen combustion and power generation endothermic as opposed to NG combustion and power generation  which is exothermic only.

The patent expired. They did not fail to pay to extend it. 

Endothermic or exothermic has nothing to do with why H2 is not being used for energy storage at scale. When green hydrogen is at or near the cost of NG then it will be used at scale.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[nsdp + 449]

21 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The patent expired. They did not fail to pay to extend it. 

Endothermic or exothermic has nothing to do with why H2 is not being used for energy storage at scale. When green hydrogen is at or near the cost of NG then it will be used at scale.

     

Jay, do you know how to price things.  Fuel input cost for green hydrogen is like what is happening in China now. They have an excess of renewable s  that go to waste some 270 GWH worth due to the provincial grids not enerconnecting.  Marginal cost to make green hydrogen is $0/kg.   Marginal cost today  for NG is $4.71/kg.   Green hydrogen unitsare cheaper to build  because there no environmental  permits and 0 environmental equipment to install and maintain.  Meeting PM 2.5 costs NG about $950/kw name plate to install  then add your operating costs. NOx adds another 650 dollars  to construction costs.  You can't use once through cooling any more so you have to build special dry cooling towers for the waste heat recovery condenser system.  Those aren't cheap to build  either and expensive to maintain.  If you don't build them, you add 50% to fuel cost for operating  due to a derate from 60% efficiency to 40%.