Starvation, horror in Venezuela

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

IN my previous Post on Venezuela, we looked at the collapse of a society.  Here, Der Spiegel takes a look at what is happening in an outlying rural city on the Northern Coast, where hospital supplies are totally gone, the physicians have a pay of two euros a month,  and a tin of infant food costs one million Bolivars, if you can even find it.  Starvation reigns, especially among infants,the babies arriving dead of starvation at the only hospital, itself not functioning as there is nothing there for the doctors to work with - absolutely nothing.  Nothing means nothing, no bandages, no food, no sheets, no elevator, no electricity, zero medications, no anesthesia, nothing.  The infants lie three to a bed, until they die. 

OK, so how can anyone in the West that considers himself Christian stand idly by and do nothing - while Maduro inflicts mass starvation on the people?  How can you stand idly by and not arrest Maduro for crimes of mass murder?  How can the Allied nations not send in the Navy with food supplies, all standing in mounds of surplus in the USA, unsold, when 25 million Venezuelans are facing death at the hands of Maduro?   

What does this say about the Trump Administration and those around him?    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-country-of-hunger-inside-the-deep-suffering-in-venezuela-s-hospitals-a-1221061.html

Edited August 13, 2018 by Jan van Eck

[Qanoil + 116]

36 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

What does this say about the Trump Administration and those around him? 

Why are you blaming the Trump Administration?

Wrong target.

The reasons for the total collapse of Venezuela are the direct responsibility of its gung ho Socialist leaders, Chavez and then Maduro.

Lay the responsibility squarely at the feet of Venezuela's incompetent Socialist leaders.

If you are going to try to blame a U.S. Presidential Administration for Venezuela's self-inflicted Socialism wounds, why are you giving the Obama Administration a free pass here, as all of this was happening under Chavez and Maduro - while Obama was in office.

Reality check here, from an Oil Price article last week -

Why The U.S. Won’t Sanction Venezuela’s Oil

Over the past year, the U.S. has imposed increasingly restrictive sanctions on Venezuela’s finances and debt issuance as Nicolas Maduro continues to tighten his grip over the collapsing Venezuelan state.

Yet, despite expectations that the U.S. would slap direct sanctions on Venezuela’s oil industry, Washington appears reluctant to go any further.

The word out of Washington is that the United States is no longer looking at sanctioning Venezuela’s oil industry, and not just because Venezuelan oil accounts for a large part of the imports of the refiners on the Gulf Coast. The U.S. Administration doesn’t want to be responsible for the total collapse of Venezuela, and doesn’t want to be blamed for contributing to it, analysts told Platts’s Brian Scheid.

“If you break it, you buy it,” George David Banks, a former international energy and environment adviser to U.S. President Donald Trump, told Platts. “The White House doesn’t want to own this crisis.”

It looks like the U.S. Administration is currently shelving the idea of imposing oil sanctions on Venezuela, and the Trump Administration is much more hesitant than last year, probably more hesitant than ever, to use what has been seen as the ultimate punishment on Venezuela—a ban on U.S. imports of Venezuelan oil and/or a ban on U.S. exports of diluents that help Venezuela to blend its heavy crude oil so it can pass through pipes for export.

Rumors of U.S. sanctions on Venezuelan oil have been circulating the news flow for more than a year. This time last year, such sanctions were more in the realm of ‘when’ rather than ‘if’.

The United States, however, while continuously tightening financial sanctions and designating a growing number of officials and persons, has so far refrained from slapping Venezuelan oil with restrictions.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

6 hours ago, Qanoil said:

Why are you blaming the Trump Administration?

 

I am most assuredly not blaming the Trump Administration for the disastrous mess in Venezuela.  For that, the blame rests entirely with Chavez, Maduro, and their Cuban prop-ups  (the goons in the Intelligence Services that suppress the Venezuelan dissenters).

What I castigate the Trump Administration for is not intervening.  Either there is intervention, or there is mass starvation. 

[Qanoil + 116]

24 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I am most assuredly not blaming the Trump Administration for the disastrous mess in Venezuela.  For that, the blame rests entirely with Chavez, Maduro, and their Cuban prop-ups  (the goons in the Intelligence Services that suppress the Venezuelan dissenters).

Ok, please accept my apologies.  I misunderstood your earlier comment.

25 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

What I castigate the Trump Administration for is not intervening.  Either there is intervention, or there is mass starvation. 

That is a different issue.  I don't plan to debate you on intervention or non-intervention, since I am tired of the USA getting castigasted for both intervening and also for not intervening in world politics.

Why not call out Russia or China for not throwing billions more money down the Socialist drain of Venezuela's government?  Venezuela created this disaster.  Why exactly is the USA responsible for Venezuela's stubborn, intractable Socialism?  China and Russia have much more at stake with money sunk into Venezuelan assets than the USA does.  How about letting Russia and China bail out this Socialist Venezuela.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

27 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I am most assuredly not blaming the Trump Administration for the disastrous mess in Venezuela.  For that, the blame rests entirely with Chavez, Maduro, and their Cuban prop-ups  (the goons in the Intelligence Services that suppress the Venezuelan dissenters).

What I castigate the Trump Administration for is not intervening.  Either there is intervention, or there is mass starvation. 

I got your opening statement's meaning, Jan.  I did not know how to respond when you first posted simply because, how can one respond?  Unfortunately, I don't think Trump is that kind of leader.  He may even want to use this as an example as to what can happen if we don't correct some massive imbalances now, rightly or wrongly.  In any case, I don't see him leading an effort to save them.  People need to understand this about Trump very clearly: if we get another 2008, my bet is that Trump will let the banks, brokers, insurance companies, real estate and everything else collapse.  Another point to mention is that I don't think there is enough treasury to save those characters again anyway.  This is, I think, actually quite necessary to get the world's finances back to reality, but many, many more people are going to live the current life of the Venezuelan people and probably worse.  I certainly hope I'm wrong.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 minutes ago, Qanoil said:

Ok, please accept my apologies.  I misunderstood your earlier comment.

That is a different issue.  I don't plan to debate you on intervention or non-intervention, since I am tired of the USA getting castigasted for both intervening and also for not intervening in world politics.

Why not call out Russia or China for not throwing billions more money down the Socialist drain of Venezuela's government?  Venezuela created this disaster.  Why exactly is the USA responsible for Venezuela's stubborn, intractable Socialism?  China and Russia have much more at stake with money sunk into Venezuelan assets than the USA does.  How about letting Russia and China bail out this Socialist Venezuela.

How true it is: we always seem to lose if we do and lose if we don't.

It is also useful to do a little more Googling about aid to Venezuela.  This U.S. is helping, although it might not be in ways that we all could agree is enough or in the right ways.  The Trump administration has decided not to go forward with further oil sanctions.  Another note is that the EU has funneled 10's of millions of Euros of aid into Venezuela, and they sent it right to Madura.  The U.S., apparently, aren't the only ones with misguided folks "running" things.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

20 minutes ago, Qanoil said:

Ok, please accept my apologies.  I misunderstood your earlier comment.

That is a different issue.  I don't plan to debate you on intervention or non-intervention, since I am tired of the USA getting castigasted for both intervening and also for not intervening in world politics.

Why not call out Russia or China for not throwing billions more money down the Socialist drain of Venezuela's government?  Venezuela created this disaster.  Why exactly is the USA responsible for Venezuela's stubborn, intractable Socialism?  China and Russia have much more at stake with money sunk into Venezuelan assets than the USA does.  How about letting Russia and China bail out this Socialist Venezuela.

The situation has nothing to do with "bailing out" Venezuela.  There is this criminal cabal that has quite literally taken over en entire country at gunpoint.  The US has a long-standing Doctrine, known as the Monroe Doctrine, that sets out that the USA will use such force as necessary to establish freedom and democracy in the Western Hemisphere, specifically in South and Latin America. No one has seriously challenged the Doctrine.  Under the specific terms of the Doctrine, the USA has committed itself to preserving the peace, the good order, the welfare, and the democracy of all the countries of the Hemisphere, and that includes Venezuela. Thus, I argue, it cannot stand idly by and do nothing while Maduro and his thugs do mass murder of millions, through starvation. 

I also argue that no one who makes even the most distant claim to adherence to Christianity can stand idly by and watch this unfold, with the excuse that it is "not our country, thus not our problem."  Human obligations extend beyond borders. 

What is happening in Venezuela is not "world politics."  It is not "politics."  It is mass starvation.  Let's be clear on that. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Jan van Eck
spelling error

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

7 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

I got your opening statement's meaning, Jan.  I did not know how to respond when you first posted simply because, how can one respond?  Unfortunately, I don't think Trump is that kind of leader.  He may even want to use this as an example as to what can happen if we don't correct some massive imbalances now, rightly or wrongly.  In any case, I don't see him leading an effort to save them.  People need to understand this about Trump very clearly: if we get another 2008, my bet is that Trump will let the banks, brokers, insurance companies, real estate and everything else collapse.  Another point to mention is that I don't think there is enough treasury to save those characters again anyway.  This is, I think, actually quite necessary to get the world's finances back to reality, but many, many more people are going to live the current life of the Venezuelan people and probably worse.  I certainly hope I'm wrong.

To reply to your post in reverse order, first, you are not wrong. 

Second, if there is another 2008  (might well happen, but as a matter of certainty will happen in Canada, due to a massive housing bubble in Canada's major cities) then the bankruptcy courts can deal with it.  Those are well-organized courts that have handled some very large bankruptcies.  The financial system will continue as there are a vast number of credit unions that will be outside the limelight and can carry the water.  The individuals who will survive the mess will have placed their money into wood (timber and lumber). 

You inquire, "how does one respond?"  And the answer is:  by invoking the Monroe Doctrine, sending in the Navy and their marine contingents to provide food and medicine and cattle and diesel fuel to the Eastern Cities first, then landing the Army and working West into Caracas and arresting Maduro. The place gets taken over and held under military occupation, which would probably take about 30 years if the experience with Germany is any guide. Possibly less if the oil fields can be repaired and back up to speed. But the one thing you don't do is just sit on your hands and let the horrors shown by Der Spiegel continue.  That cannot happen. Not, if any man calls himself a Christian in the Trump Administration. 

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

22 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

How true it is: we always seem to lose if we do and lose if we don't.

It is also useful to do a little more Googling about aid to Venezuela.  This U.S. is helping, although it might not be in ways that we all could agree is enough or in the right ways.  The Trump administration has decided not to go forward with further oil sanctions.  Another note is that the EU has funneled 10's of millions of Euros of aid into Venezuela, and they sent it right to Madura.  The U.S., apparently, aren't the only ones with misguided folks "running" things.

The EU bureaucrats are notoriously incompetent.  The case of the Romanian cow straying into Serbia demonstrated that clearly. (Kill the cow, because it has no exit and entry papers.  Remember that one?)

Edited August 13, 2018 by Jan van Eck

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

I remind readers here that what is unfolding in Venezuela is qualitatively no different that what took place in Turkey with the Armenian mass starvation and murder a hundred years ago, or what took place in Ukraine with the peasant farmers, the kulaks, when Stalin decided to collectivize their farms - and starved out the farmers, and pushed them into gulag concentration camps, to die.  Or what happened to the surrendered German troops at Stalingrad; 118,000 went into prisoner of war camps, and only 6,000 came out.  

No matter how you slice it and dice it, mass murder remains mass murder.  Maduro needs to hang for his crimes.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Jan van Eck
scrivener error

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

22 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

How true it is: we always seem to lose if we do and lose if we don't.

 

There is nothing to "lose."  The US goes in and takes over.  You avoid large-scale conflict in the city of Caracas by not going in there.  Take over in the Eastern area by seizing the ports there, bring in food, re-stock the hospitals and utilities, evacuate the most serious cases of starvation (particularly the small children and infants) to Navy hospital ships and then to Trinidad (and if you have to, simply seize the airports in Trinidad for the duration).  Once the word spreads that the Americans are providing free food, Maduro is overthrown by the people in Caracas and the army, their loyalty is totally fungible. 

There is neither a political cost nor a moral cost.  The real cost is to stand around with your thumbs in your pant-belt loops, doing nothing and watching an entire population die, right in front of your eyes. There is nothing proudly American in doing that. There is nothing proudly British in doing that.  There is nothing proudly French in doing that. There is nothing proudly Brasilian in doing that.  

Let's get the priorities straight. Maduro is murdering millions.  He is doing that, right now, today. Stop him. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

40 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

You inquire, "how does one respond?"  And the answer is:  by invoking the Monroe Doctrine, sending in the Navy and their marine contingents to provide food and medicine and cattle and diesel fuel to the Eastern Cities first, then landing the Army and working West into Caracas and arresting Maduro. The place gets taken over and held under military occupation, which would probably take about 30 years if the experience with Germany is any guide. Possibly less if the oil fields can be repaired and back up to speed. But the one thing you don't do is just sit on your hands and let the horrors shown by Der Spiegel continue.  That cannot happen. Not, if any man calls himself a Christian in the Trump Administration. 

I meant, an individual reader.  Your plan of actions is sound.  

"Not, if any man calls himself a Christian in the Trump Administration."  Nobody in that administration does anything without the President, and it appears that it also needs to be him that comes up with the idea.  I saw an article that, if Trump leaves the WH for any reason, they feel as if they are living in a bunker without a war.  Think on that for a moment.

If there are any christians in the administration, they will tell you that they are doing everything they can and are praying for the people, but Americans need their actions first and that is why they were elected.  Beyond sad, but I don't expect much from the religious these days.  The true believers, the ones who practice their preachings, IMHO, work on and don't look for headlines or praise.  They get done what they can and they use whatever resources they can to get more help.  Their mouthpieces are essentially failing them.  Again, just IMHO.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Dan Warnick
"does anything withOUT the President"

[Refman + 207]

This is something that the UN should take action on. Unfortunately the UN has pretty proved that it is useless in situations like this, with key members casting vetos.

 

It should also be pointed out that Maduro has repeatedly refused offers of aid, because that would mean admitting the country is screwed up.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Refman

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

I meant, an individual reader.  Your plan of actions is sound.  

"Not, if any man calls himself a Christian in the Trump Administration."  Nobody in that administration does anything with the President, and it appears that it also needs to be him that comes up with the idea.  I saw an article that, if Trump leaves the WH for any reason, they feel as if they are living in a bunker without a war.  Think on that for a moment.

If there are any christians in the administration, they will tell you that they are doing everything they can and are praying for the people, but Americans need their actions first and that is why they were elected.  Beyond sad, but I don't expect much from the religious these days.  The true believers, the ones who practice their preachings, IMHO, work on and don't look for headlines or praise.  They get done what they can and they use whatever resources they can to get more help.  Their mouthpieces are essentially failing them.  Again, just IMHO.

The one organization to be found anywhere on the planet that can rescue the Venezuelans from mass starvation is the US Military.  Nobody else has the depth of resources, the discipline, and the manpower to pull it off. You have the port cities of Barcelona and Cumena that have ferry docks, so roll-on, roll-off ferries loaded with trucks and trailers with food can be unloaded in moments. You have to seize those ferry docks with the U.S. Marines or the French Foreign Legion if Paris is going to participate. That part goes fast. Now the Army and the Legionnaires fan out into Barcelona and take control of the city, while the 101st Airborne takes the airport.  You can probably do all that without firing a shot; who is going to resist massive invasion forces?  Nobody.  Not those sleepy militia guards that are busy stealing from the peasants, that crowd pulls off their uniforms and runs away. You have military control in four hours flat, then the ferries are unloading and the Military Police set to work organizing matters.  You can have Barcelona under full control and the feeding started in less than 8 hours, the US Army is that good. 

Maduro is gone within three days, hiding in Cuba, if not already swinging from a tree branch or lamp post in Caracas, just watch how fast that goes. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 minutes ago, Refman said:

This is something that the UN should take action on. Unfortunately the UN has pretty proved that it is useless in situations like this, with key members casting vetos.

 

It should also be pointed out that Maduro has repeatedly refused offers of aid, because that would mean admitting the country is screwed up.

The UN is clearly useless, that is why Washington invokes the Monroe Doctrine and moves in, in force.  And you brush by Maduro and his clique, the First Infantry Division ["Big Red One"] comes ashore at Barcelona (port city to the East) and takes over.  Forget the bureaucrats at the UN, no time any more for that, this horror is unfolding Today, not next month. Maduro has to be arrested, you do that with brute military force.  End of story. 

[Qanoil + 116]

3 minutes ago, Refman said:

This is something that the UN should take action on. Unfortunately the UN has pretty proved that it is useless in situations like this, with key members casting vetos.

 

It should also be pointed out that Maduro has repeatedly refused offers of aid, because that would mean admitting the country is screwed up.

The UN is useless.  Saudi Arabia and other dictatorships are on the UN Human Rights Commission.

The USA already has its hands full, with full blow Socialists like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who want to emulate Venezuela's Socialist "ideals" inside the USA.  Socialists openly calling for the overthrow of a democratically elected government in the USA.

Get rid of that cancer first from within the USA, before anyone starts demanding that the USA invades a failed Socialist "paradise" that USA Socialists want to emulate.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 minutes ago, Qanoil said:

The USA already has its hands full, with full blow Socialists like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who want to emulate Venezuela's Socialist "ideals" inside the USA.  Socialists openly calling for the overthrow of a democratically elected government in the USA.

 

You cannot seriously maintain that "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez" has anything more than ten followers in the USA.  Some loonie runs her mouth, and you are going to  pay attention to that?  Forget her, she's some nobody.  The US has "its hand full" because of some mouth? No chance.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

The UN is clearly useless, that is why Washington invokes the Monroe Doctrine and moves in, in force.  And you brush by Maduro and his clique, the First Infantry Division ["Big Red One"] comes ashore at Barcelona (port city to the East) and takes over.  Forget the bureaucrats at the UN, no time any more for that, this horror is unfolding Today, not next month. Maduro has to be arrested, you do that with brute military force.  End of story. 

Donald Trump is absolutely known for doing what he wants, no matter what the critics say.  He would do well to take your action plan, call the Generals and get them to put the wheels in motion, and go for it post haste.  Talk about a legacy!  MAGA and saving another country!  Another point: it would be easy to get the U.S. Military to buy in and support and run the operation.  American soldiers LOVE to win hearts and minds, and truly make a difference for peace and, yes, the planet.  They are that good.  Send your plan to the WH, Jan.  Who knows, somebody might put it in a tweet that the boss will read.

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

58 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

 You inquire, "how does one respond?"  And the answer is:  by invoking the Monroe Doctrine, sending in the Navy and their marine contingents to provide food and medicine and cattle and diesel fuel.

Better not ask Trump about the Monroe Doctrine. He could answer tweeting something about how Marilyn Monroe was a great and very beautifull actress.

Under Bush Jr it was "leading in the wrong direction" (Iraq war)

Under Obama it was "leading from behind"

Under Trump it"s "no more leading - just trying to sell things"

I don't see the Trump administration able to plan such a foreign intervention. It would require to stay focused on the subject fot months and Trump is unable to stay focused on something for more than a couple of tweets. And its too risky for him just before the miterm election. The more he could do could be to ask the Saudis to pay for a Columbian military intervention in Venezuela just adding a regional war to the Venezulan mess.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 minutes ago, Qanoil said:

The UN is useless.  Saudi Arabia and other dictatorships are on the UN Human Rights Commission.

The USA already has its hands full, with full blow Socialists like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who want to emulate Venezuela's Socialist "ideals" inside the USA.  Socialists openly calling for the overthrow of a democratically elected government in the USA.

Get rid of that cancer first from within the USA, before anyone starts demanding that the USA invades a failed Socialist "paradise" that USA Socialists want to emulate.

Who?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

You cannot seriously maintain that "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez" has anything more than ten followers in the USA.  Some loonie runs her mouth, and you are going to  pay attention to that?  Forget her, she's some nobody.  The US has "its hand full" because of some mouth? No chance.

Dan Quayle has a larger following.  https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dan-quayle-shows-up-at-trump-tower-and-reporters-dont-recognize-him

With good reason, I think.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/08/10/fact-checking-alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-media-blitz/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.68c6442b5d5f

Let's get back to the discussion about a real problem.  I'm sure Ms. Ocasio-Cortez will defeat herself.

[Qanoil + 116]

5 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

You cannot seriously maintain that "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez" has anything more than ten followers in the USA.  Some loonie runs her mouth, and you are going to  pay attention to that?  Forget her, she's some nobody.  The US has "its hand full" because of some mouth? No chance.

Wrong.  Ocasio-Cortez was the new poster child for the Democrats.  Until every. single. one. of the candidates she openly backed lost in the recent elections.

Meantime Antifa "Antifascists" - the "activism" arm of the Democrats - are not only calling for removing the democratically elected USA President from office, they are openly calling to kill him.

“I Would Murder Him – Do Him Like Gaddafi” Antifa Activists on Video Threaten to Kill President Trump at Unite The Right Counter-Protest

Antifa activists counter-protesting the so-called ‘Unite the Right 2’ rally across from the White House in Washington, D.C. on Sunday spoke on camera to Daily Caller reporter Benny Johnson, bluntly stating they want to murder President Donald Trump.

Johnson posted the video to Twitter with captions.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 minutes ago, Qanoil said:

Wrong.  Ocasio-Cortez was the new poster child for the Democrats.  Until every. single. one. of the candidates she openly backed lost in the recent elections.

Meantime Antifa "Antifascists" - the "activism" arm of the Democrats - are not only calling for removing the democratically elected USA President from office, they are openly calling to kill him.

“I Would Murder Him – Do Him Like Gaddafi” Antifa Activists on Video Threaten to Kill President Trump at Unite The Right Counter-Protest

Antifa activists counter-protesting the so-called ‘Unite the Right 2’ rally across from the White House in Washington, D.C. on Sunday spoke on camera to Daily Caller reporter Benny Johnson, bluntly stating they want to murder President Donald Trump.

Johnson posted the video to Twitter with captions.

Protests are legal, at least in the U.S.  Threats to the President, any President, on the other hand, will get each and every one of these individuals a visit from the Secret Service and probably several other agencies.  Their decision and, as we used to say back home, they can sleep in the bed they've made for themselves.  In the meantime, those same agencies, and maybe even more again, are investigating these folks and they will uncover who is supporting them and drag them into, shall we say, discussions of responsibility and the courts.  That's how democracy and the rule of law works.  Simply put, this issue does not in any way parallel the situation in Venezuela and, perhaps more to the point, it does not require the resources that Jan is suggesting be deployed.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/12/us/politics/charlottesville-va-protest-unite-the-right.html

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

14 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Protests are legal, at least in the U.S.  Threats to the President, any President, on the other hand, will get each and every one of these individuals a visit from the Secret Service and probably several other agencies.  Their decision and, as we used to say back home, they can sleep in the bed they've made for themselves.  In the meantime, those same agencies, and maybe even more again, are investigating these folks and they will uncover who is supporting them and drag them into, shall we say, discussions of responsibility and the courts.  That's how democracy and the rule of law works.  Simply put, this issue does not in any way parallel the situation in Venezuela and, perhaps more to the point, it does not require the resources that Jan is suggesting be deployed.

Or in the alternative, those Antifa guys get scooped up and dropped off at Guantanamo, there to enjoy breakfast with the mujaheddin. Should keep them on ice for the duration.  Nobodies lunching with nobodies.  Bunking arrangements should be interesting.