Corporations Are Buying More Renewables Than Ever

[NickW + 2,714]

37 minutes ago, Rodent said:

I KNOW! Everything I learned from watching "Border Security: Canada's Front Line" tells me that they run a pretty tight ship! Go figure.

 

I was more thinking when someone tried to persuade me to move to Canada to join the oil boom and I took a look at the VISA entry requirements for skilled labour. I had enough points but it was close. 

[NickW + 2,714]

23 hours ago, markslawson said:

Nick W - as I have explained to you before there is no way renewables can compete with conventional power on a grid on costs. You have to do too much to the grid when it has lots of renewables. Refer to posts in other threads for more details. I know this has been pointed out to you before and you had no adequate reply. As for the assertion "a fraction of the subsidies" this point exists only in your imagination - or it is because they've substituted targets for subsidies, to make the consumer pay instead. This point has also been made to you. Now, leave it with you.

I don't recall ever saying renewables are routinely cheaper on financial costs alone. You keep presenting this strawman argument again and again.......

The common political drivers for renewables are;

• Climate change mitigation
• Air quality
• Energy security
• Energy supply diversity
• Employment 

What you of course overlook is the fact that current solar panels are relatively inefficient at converting solar into electricity in that current mainstream poly-crystalline panels are 18-19% efficient. Go back 25 years and it was under 10%. The efficiency is creeping up but what if some whizz kid works out a way to produce solar panels at the same cost but which are say 50% efficient or more. That effectively cuts the cost of installed solar power by another 30-35% and allows people to install much larger installations than before on the same roof space. It also opens up the possibility of being able to install on walls or east / west facing roof spaces that were not previously considered worthwhile. 

Wind doesn't have the same efficiency curve potential but I reckon by 2030 20MW will be the common turbine size for offshore and onshore are getting larger too - perhaps 5-6MW. Thats going drive costs down a lot further while increasing capacity factors. Also a lot of the survey work and basic maintenance can be done by drones now. 

[Ian Austin + 131]

28 minutes ago, NickW said:

I don't recall ever saying renewables are routinely cheaper on financial costs alone. You keep presenting this strawman argument again and again.......

The common political drivers for renewables are;

• Climate change mitigation
• Air quality
• Energy security
• Energy supply diversity
• Employment 

What you of course overlook is the fact that current solar panels are relatively inefficient at converting solar into electricity in that current mainstream poly-crystalline panels are 18-19% efficient. Go back 25 years and it was under 10%. The efficiency is creeping up but what if some whizz kid works out a way to produce solar panels at the same cost but which are say 50% efficient or more. That effectively cuts the cost of installed solar power by another 30-35% and allows people to install much larger installations than before on the same roof space. It also opens up the possibility of being able to install on walls or east / west facing roof spaces that were not previously considered worthwhile. 

Wind doesn't have the same efficiency curve potential but I reckon by 2030 20MW will be the common turbine size for offshore and onshore are getting larger too - perhaps 5-6MW. Thats going drive costs down a lot further while increasing capacity factors. Also a lot of the survey work and basic maintenance can be done by drones now. 

There is some work being done with Quantum Dot technology (think new age HD TV etc) that has the potential to raise efficiency (~ 30%, or so they think). 

I attended a presentation put off by a Reaearch Chemist who was working on it - he claims they can make them in the la much cheaper than the Solid State Physicists can.  Although a research champion, he’s still unsure of he practicality of the endeavour  

Edited August 23, 2018 by Ian Austin

[markslawson + 1,042]

10 hours ago, NickW said:

This is very true but commercial  renewables (without any subsidy) are already nibbling away at the edges  in many locations.

In Perth (Oz) where I used to live there is a big market in remote wind and solar on farms and rural communities because the cost of shipping in diesel is so expensive. Also in the cities and towns solar (without any subsidies) has reach parity with grid electricity in the retail markets. With falling costs of storage within a decade it will be cheaper to generate your own and store given that its pretty much year round sunshine. Likewise in Darwin where many of my ex colleagues were going for solar and batteries over diesel gen sets to cope with the regular power cuts.

My wifes employer (US Conglomerate) have installed approx. 50KW od solar and a 1MW wind turbine as their plant has a baseload that exceeds that. No export, no subsidy - a straight forward commercial decision.

I work in the rail industry and we are increasingly going over to electric tools and battery banks instead of generators. This is not so much for cost (its currently cost neutral) but safety - reducing noise, vibration and exhaust exposures. Our crews who clear vegetation back use battery powered electric chainsaws for 70-75% of their work now. 

Anyway with the projected growth predictions for energy I don't know what everyone is worrying about. The truth is both renewables and fossil fuels will continue to grow in absolute use for decades.

NickW - where does this stuff come from? I live on OZ and the use of PVs and such in remote communities has a long history - if you can set the system up so that it can sort of manage itself then it can be cheaper than using diesel. WA has a lot of micro-grids, incidentally, which use renewables and cost a fortune to set up. As for the business about solar reaching parity with grid power, note this item from The West Australian "At a local level, Synergy is required to pay households with solar panels 7.1¢ for every unit of surplus power their systems put into the network under the renewable energy buyback scheme."

https://thewest.com.au/business/renewable-energy/wa-energy-minister-ben-wyatt-considers-pulling-plug-on-solar-panel-subsidies-ng-b88911006z 

Yes I am aware that the article says that the article says the minister does not consider the subsidies necessary any more, but the damage has already been done and there is still the Federal Renewable Energy Target. Any effect left over is the result of the pricing system - households should be charged for access to the grid and then charged for the energy. Then you may well find that the advantage of PVs vanishes.

The only part of your post which stands up is the company buying a wind turbine and panel for its use, but then you have to work out just why the local grid is so bad and expensive that such a purchase was required.  also note your comment on Darwin. How come so many blackouts? That's not a green decision incidentally, its about keeping the lights on because the government has badly stuffed up.  

[NickW + 2,714]

13 hours ago, markslawson said:

NickW - where does this stuff come from? I live on OZ and the use of PVs and such in remote communities has a long history - if you can set the system up so that it can sort of manage itself then it can be cheaper than using diesel. WA has a lot of micro-grids, incidentally, which use renewables and cost a fortune to set up. As for the business about solar reaching parity with grid power, note this item from (2) The West Australian "At a local level, Synergy is required to pay households with solar panels 7.1¢ for every unit of surplus power their systems put into the network under the renewable energy buyback scheme."

https://thewest.com.au/business/renewable-energy/wa-energy-minister-ben-wyatt-considers-pulling-plug-on-solar-panel-subsidies-ng-b88911006z 

Yes I am aware that the article says that the article says the minister does not consider the subsidies necessary any more, but the damage has already been done and there is still the Federal Renewable Energy Target. Any effect left over is the result of the pricing system - households should be charged for access to the grid and then charged for the energy. Then you may well find that the advantage of PVs vanishes.

The only part of your post which stands up is the company buying a wind turbine and panel for its use, but then you have to work out just why the local grid is so bad and expensive that such a purchase was required.  also note your comment on Darwin.(3) How come so many blackouts? That's not a green decision incidentally, its about keeping the lights on because the government has badly stuffed up.  

(1) Have you seen the price of diesel in the Mid West / Pilbara? I can recall it being about $1.65 /L opposed to about $1,20 in Perth in 2012. I would assume similar differentials exist for non road use diesel? Its the cost of generating your electricity from a diesel gen set using fuel shipping in from 100's km that small scale outback renewables compete with - NOT METRO AREA GRID PRICES!

(2) Yes that sounds familiar. They buy it off the producer for 7 cents and sell it to another consumer for 23 cents. That would appear to be a fairly low wholesale price for power - Synergy are getting a bargain and that is not a subsidy. 

(3) Thats easy - small pipeline running 600km from Blacktip gas field / Yelcherr to Darwin is the sole source of supply for Darwin. The only storage is effectively line packing that route. I don't think they store much distillate as a back up. 

Yelcherr trips and if Connoco can't back fill at Darwin then its rolling power cuts inside 8 hours. 

The other factor is weather - Typhoon season. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

Don't have an embolism Mark😄 but Western power are helping some farmers to go off grid and convert to solar / battery set ups. This then removes the ongoing liability of maintaining grid connections to these remote locations. 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-06-12/powering-the-bush-problems-and-solutions-in-western-australia/8598768