Are there more electric or natural gas vehicles in the world?

(edited)

Do you think there are more electric or natural gas vehicles in the world? Why is the mainstream media so uninformed or are they just deceivers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

http://www.iangv.org/current-ngv-stats/

https://www.tdworld.com/distribution/number-electric-cars-rises-2-million-more-3-million

https://www.statista.com/statistics/270603/worldwide-number-of-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles-since-2009/

 

Edited by Ron Wagner
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9 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

Unless the MSM have been making claims that there are more electric than CNG cars they are not so uniformed or deceiving us.

The interest in electric cars is that they potentially get you off the hydrocarbon hook and have zero emissions at the point of use.

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The difference is the growth rate.

CNG cars are folllowing a linear growth and EV's are following an exponential growth.

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Hi.  I'm Ron Wilson and I am a new member. 

 

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5 hours ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

The difference is the growth rate.

CNG cars are folllowing a linear growth and EV's are following an exponential growth.

I don't know what you mean by that, but all small industries start out small and any growth is a much higher percentage than that of older industries. Natural gas and electric vehicles both came out over one hundred years ago so natural gas vehicles are far ahead.

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6 hours ago, NickW said:

Unless the MSM have been making claims that there are more electric than CNG cars they are not so uniformed or deceiving us.

The interest in electric cars is that they potentially get you off the hydrocarbon hook and have zero emissions at the point of use.

It shows that they are very uninformed and have a hidden agenda. To me, that is either due to ignorance or motives. Electric vehicles will be using electricity primarily generated from natural gas turbines and the electricity will have line loss over many miles. 

The job of the media is to inform not selectively choose what they wish to promote. 

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39 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

I don't know what you mean by that, but all small industries start out small and any growth is a much higher percentage than that of older industries. Natural gas and electric vehicles both came out over one hundred years ago so natural gas vehicles are far ahead.

A key difference though is the householder can run a cable out and charge his EV (slowly admittedly) without any special equipment. If that householder has solar panels there is the opportunity to at least part charge from what is produced on the roof. 

EV's are zero emission at the point of use - CNG are not. They have low particulate emissions but Nox is still 50-60% of what you get from a petrol. 

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The point of use has little to do with it IMHO. Natural gas is used for home cooking, heating, and I have an unvented natural gas heating stove in case of electrical problems or for an aesthetic flame. Natural gas vehicles can be fueled at home also. Go to cngchat.com for proof of that. Special compressors are needed but the government was funding efforts to build a $500 pump. They went silent, however. That was a few years ago. 

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36 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

The point of use has little to do with it IMHO. Natural gas is used for home cooking, heating, and I have an unvented natural gas heating stove in case of electrical problems or for an aesthetic flame. Natural gas vehicles can be fueled at home also. Go to cngchat.com for proof of that. Special compressors are needed but the government was funding efforts to build a $500 pump. They went silent, however. That was a few years ago. 

I certainly would have like to have seen a major effort to convert heavy trucks to natural to CNG and light trucks that do deliveries in cities. 

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2 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

I don't know what you mean by that, but all small industries start out small and any growth is a much higher percentage than that of older industries. Natural gas and electric vehicles both came out over one hundred years ago so natural gas vehicles are far ahead.

 

I mean that the world fleet of natural gas vehicles is growing. But this growth is linear.adding 1.3 million cars each year. There are now 25 million cars in circulation.

image.png.129e910efe9c08b058f930112aedcdca.png

 

The world fleet of EV's is only at 3 millions now but the growth is accelerating. 300'000 EV's were added in 2014, 500'000 in 2015, 750'000 in 2016 and  1 million in 2017.  This trend shows that in 2018 the sales of EV's will probably outnumber the sales of gas vehicles for the first time. A 50% increase of the EV fleet each year means that the EV world fleet could outnumber the NGV  world fleet in 2023.

image.png.e920959b3f7baf28d6236a5c6d6657fc.png

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Being a practical and economical fellow I just can't see electric vehicles catching on until the range increases substantially. I do realize that price is no object for those who want to keep up with the guy next door. 

The electric car graph shows that sales have been way behind the projections. I expect that to continue. No matter, it will be interesting to watch the progress of both. I hope they are both very successful. I definitely think that natural gas makes the most sense for larger vehicles. 

Presently small gasoline cars are a more economical choice for most people. 

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25 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Presently small gasoline cars are a more economical choice for most people. 

^  This.  Important point, often overlooked by idealistic unicorn herders.

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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Being a practical and economical fellow I just can't see electric vehicles catching on until the range increases substantially. I do realize that price is no object for those who want to keep up with the guy next door. 

The electric car graph shows that sales have been way behind the projections. I expect that to continue. No matter, it will be interesting to watch the progress of both. I hope they are both very successful. I definitely think that natural gas makes the most sense for larger vehicles. 

Presently small gasoline cars are a more economical choice for most people. 

Please see https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/gm-electric-cars-mandate/

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There are a lot more gas cars but not near enough to improve air quality. If only they could become mandatory. (I'm still angry from having to walk along a few very busy streets yesterday and get an unwanted fill of exhaust gases.)

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11 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

There are a lot more gas cars but not near enough to improve air quality. If only they could become mandatory. (I'm still angry from having to walk along a few very busy streets yesterday and get an unwanted fill of exhaust gases.)

It will reduce your exposure to particulates but you will still get a good lung full of NOX from CNG fuelled cars.

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Natural gas will produce NOX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx  but natural gas will be burned as the main fuel to produce electricity for electric cars anyway. As coal use decreases more natural gas will be used worldwide. Of course solar and wind will have a role too, but they are, as of now, much more costly and have their own problems. 

http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html 

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1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

Natural gas will produce NOX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx  but natural gas will be burned as the main fuel to produce electricity for electric cars anyway. As coal use decreases more natural gas will be used worldwide. Of course solar and wind will have a role too, but they are, as of now, much more costly and have their own problems. 

http://clean-carbonenergy.com/nox-emissions.html 

The difference is the car exhaust is feet away from people breathing  the same air. In contrast a CCGT power station is normally located some distance from population centres. 

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(edited)

I realize that but I am not familiar with what wind patterns and the weight of the various gases do over the short and long term. I know that CNG itself rises quickly versus gasoline or diesel which are liquids. Of course, the temperature of the exhausts affects this too. I lived nearly half of my life in the greater Los Angeles area where the pollutants stack up against the mountains to the East. They recently had a very long term inversion layer that hung over the city. They use all CNG buses in Los Angeles but seem unable to translate that to encourage trucking to make the change. 

Here are the needed maps. https://www.eia.gov/state/maps.php 

To me, it seems that the solar and natural gas plants are mainly urban but that wind is more rural. You be the judge. Los Angeles is today very dense, but nothing like NYC or Asian cities. I prefer to see wind turbines in the flat areas than on beautiful hills and mountains.

Edited by ronwagn
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2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I realize that but I am not familiar with what wind patterns and the weight of the various gases do over the short and long term. I know that CNG itself rises quickly versus gasoline or diesel which are liquids. Of course, the temperature of the exhausts affects this too. I lived nearly half of my life in the greater Los Angeles area where the pollutants stack up against the mountains to the East. They recently had a very long term inversion layer that hung over the city. They use all CNG buses in Los Angeles but seem unable to translate that to encourage trucking to make the change. 

Here are the needed maps. https://www.eia.gov/state/maps.php 

To me, it seems that the solar and natural gas plants are mainly urban but that wind is more rural. You be the judge. Los Angeles is today very dense, but nothing like NYC or Asian cities. I prefer to see wind turbines in the flat areas than on beautiful hills and mountains.

I'd agree that CNG is a marked improved over liquid fuels especially diesel which is why I would like to see CNG better promoted as an alternative to diesel in heavy trucks especially those working in urban areas. 

Nitrogen Dioxide has a relatively short life in that it either dissolves in water and forma a weak acid or forms secondary particulates such as Ammonium Nitrate (a salt). Its health effects are pretty much felt if people are close to the point of production hence the reason NOX out the back of a car / truck is much more of an issue than NOX from a CCGT. 

In London its estimated that about 38% of NOX emissions come from gas central heating boilers. 

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14 hours ago, NickW said:

It will reduce your exposure to particulates but you will still get a good lung full of NOX from CNG fuelled cars.

Honestly, that's fine by me. 

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8 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Honestly, that's fine by me. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/411756/COMEAP_The_evidence_for_the_effects_of_nitrogen_dioxide.pdf

Page 5

The authors concluded that the magnitude of the effect of long-term exposure to NO2 on mortality is at least as important as that of PM2.5.

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NOx emissions from CNG are less than 50% that of diesel. I'll take it.

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On 11/1/2018 at 8:15 AM, NickW said:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/411756/COMEAP_The_evidence_for_the_effects_of_nitrogen_dioxide.pdf

Page 5

The authors concluded that the magnitude of the effect of long-term exposure to NO2 on mortality is at least as important as that of PM2.5.

So if Natural gas has half the NOx and virtually no particulates that is 75% cleaner than diesel, right? Also less expensive. Time is coming for change, at least in heavily polluted cities and those who travel through them. There will be a larger demand for "clean diesel" as soon as European ship regulations take effect. Trucking will possibly end up paying a premium for it. Natual gas is cleaner and cheaper. Other nations are way ahead of the USA in adopting Natural gas vehicles. 

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