End of EV Subsidies?

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

White House seeks to end subsidies for electric cars, renewables... Apparently to get back at GM for shutting down factories. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Welp, clearly the world is going to hell in a CO2 hot air hand basket now.

Those subsidies were really going to change the planet.

[DA? + 301]

The USA apart from a few companies is stagnating in the renewables and EV race. It will be even less competitive with countries like China by going down this road. Trump seems to want to harm the USA's economy by just helping to protect the wealth of a few. GM and Ford are already behind in the EV game, which one goes under first? EV's are the future, if they don't catch up soon there will be many more jobs lost.

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

Subsidies will vanish in the coming years when the falling price of electric cars and renewable energy will give them a competitive advantage over ICE and fossil fuel energies.

But removing the subsidies now in the US will just remove  an incentive  for the US manufacturers to develop EV models. They will go on building huge gasoline SUV and pickups, missing an opportunity to adapt to a shifting world market. And in a near future, after the bankrupcy of the big US manufacturers the American roads will be full of chinese EV's.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

I never expected the following statement, after so many others, could make me chuckle:

Experts say the White House cannot change the cap unilaterally.

[Auson + 123]

55 minutes ago, DA? said:

The USA apart from a few companies is stagnating in the renewables and EV race. It will be even less competitive with countries like China by going down this road. Trump seems to want to harm the USA's economy by just helping to protect the wealth of a few. GM and Ford are already behind in the EV game, which one goes under first? EV's are the future, if they don't catch up soon there will be many more jobs lost.

DA,

EVs as you say will no doubt be a feature in our future but I feel you massively underestimate the huge drain in energy ( oil and gas ) and resources required to replace the 2 billion ICE vehicles with EV. More over the impossible mission of upgrading the grid and electricity generation and charging systems. In my view this task is not achievable.

Without the subsidies EVs are currently uneconomic. 

[Auson + 123]

1 hour ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

Subsidies will vanish in the coming years when the falling price of electric cars and renewable energy will give them a competitive advantage over ICE and fossil fuel energies.

But removing the subsidies now in the US will just remove  an incentive  for the US manufacturers to develop EV models. They will go on building huge gasoline SUV and pickups, missing an opportunity to adapt to a shifting world market. And in a near future, after the bankrupcy of the big US manufacturers the American roads will be full of chinese EV's.

GA,

No problem with the US's cheap gas prices thats what I would do. Besides the US is massively subsidising gas by supporting unprofitable shale.

Look at the gas price in the UAE and try telling those guys that EV's are more economic ha !

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

23 minutes ago, Auson said:

GA,

No problem with the US's cheap gas prices thats what I would do. Besides the US is massively subsidising gas by supporting unprofitable shale.

Look at the gas price in the UAE and try telling those guys that EV's are more economic ha !

I want to agree with you, but I think it's worth making a distinction between government subsidies for shale vs inexcusable bank/credit/hedge fund/BIG OPM loaning that's is largely supporting it.  From what I understand of our history with regards to oil, this is the way it has always been and, for whatever reason, it goes on and on.  Boom and bust, boom and bust, etc.

Maybe members from the oil patches can explain better than that??

[DA? + 301]

30 minutes ago, Auson said:

DA,

EVs as you say will no doubt be a feature in our future but I feel you massively underestimate the huge drain in energy ( oil and gas ) and resources required to replace the 2 billion ICE vehicles with EV. More over the impossible mission of upgrading the grid and electricity generation and charging systems. In my view this task is not achievable.

Without the subsidies EVs are currently uneconomic. 

I realise the massive disruption that is coming in many industries. It will not happen over night. Rather than buying a new ICE people are increasingly moving over to EV's (as I will). But Ev's are not happening in isolation many other technologies are developing at the same time that help them become a dominant force. The energy suppliers are on the most part looking forward to EV's, it's a massive market that will help take some of the pain away as people and many companies move over to solar and storage. Yes grids will need to be changed to enable the renewable's to take over, although part of this cost can be offset due to for most of the worlds population renewables are/becoming cheaper than fossil or nuclear. It's very achievable.

It makes sense for me to buy a Tesla Model 3 when they become available (moving again). Just being the safest car's on the road makes Tesla a good buy, for my families safety I'd pay. Comfort, the local large supermarket is 3 hrs round drive away, make those hours feel less. Also when the self driving comes in (it'll be when regulations allow) I can sleep watch a movie or just enjoy the view. Fuel saving is quite a bit, the fuel there is expensive. Servicing, that will save me a load of cash and time. And also I'm willing to pay to help bring this change to a more sustainable world.

Then the prices of EV's are rapidly dropping making them even more affordable, give it say to 2025 and the choice is easy.

Although this is a very western point of view India and China are seeing cheap and cheerful EV's take off now.

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

41 minutes ago, Auson said:

GA,

No problem with the US's cheap gas prices thats what I would do. Besides the US is massively subsidising gas by supporting unprofitable shale.

Look at the gas price in the UAE and try telling those guys that EV's are more economic ha !

I think they are more aware than you may think about the coming age of renewables. And they are actively trying to get on board.

Do you know where the International Renewable Energy Agency is based ?... 

Abu Dhabi in the UAE is hosting IRENA !!!      https://www.irena.org/

 

[DA? + 301]

Just seen the time line given for this y the White House, 2020/21. That's going to have no effect on GM they are about to produce their 200,000 th car meaning the tax breaks for the clients gets faded out anyway. Just sounds like more bull as they can't do anything really. 

[Auson + 123]

5 hours ago, DA? said:

I realise the massive disruption that is coming in many industries. It will not happen over night. Rather than buying a new ICE people are increasingly moving over to EV's (as I will). But Ev's are not happening in isolation many other technologies are developing at the same time that help them become a dominant force. The energy suppliers are on the most part looking forward to EV's, it's a massive market that will help take some of the pain away as people and many companies move over to solar and storage. Yes grids will need to be changed to enable the renewable's to take over, although part of this cost can be offset due to for most of the worlds population renewables are/becoming cheaper than fossil or nuclear. It's very achievable.

It makes sense for me to buy a Tesla Model 3 when they become available (moving again). Just being the safest car's on the road makes Tesla a good buy, for my families safety I'd pay. Comfort, the local large supermarket is 3 hrs round drive away, make those hours feel less. Also when the self driving comes in (it'll be when regulations allow) I can sleep watch a movie or just enjoy the view. Fuel saving is quite a bit, the fuel there is expensive. Servicing, that will save me a load of cash and time. And also I'm willing to pay to help bring this change to a more sustainable world.

Then the prices of EV's are rapidly dropping making them even more affordable, give it say to 2025 and the choice is easy.

Although this is a very western point of view India and China are seeing cheap and cheerful EV's take off now.

DA,

As you mention safety quite a bit you should look at what happens to Li ion batteries when they are breached.. not good.

I have also heard from people in the trade here the issues with EVs already. Quite a few Teslas have already been scrapped ( do you know they won't sell you or anyone else the parts ? )

Self driving cars ha thats a long way off yet, the technology still isn't there. 

[DA? + 301]

2 hours ago, Auson said:

DA,

As you mention safety quite a bit you should look at what happens to Li ion batteries when they are breached.. not good.

I have also heard from people in the trade here the issues with EVs already. Quite a few Teslas have already been scrapped ( do you know they won't sell you or anyone else the parts ? )

Self driving cars ha thats a long way off yet, the technology still isn't there. 

By the way some of the press were going on about fire's in Tesla's you'd think they were some sort of death trap. But the reality is very different. Yes you can get a run away reaction with the battery pack, but compared to a fire in an ICE it's far slower. Also the chances of a fire are similar or less than with an ICE. What is it in the USA about 400 to 500 ICE cars burn a day and we never hear about them. Or did you hear for a while BMW's were banned in S Korea as they were burning so often.

They have been very hesitant about letting untrained people working on Tesla's as they do need special training or they could fry you.

Again catch up with what Tesla is doing with the new software up date and how quickly it's AI is getting better. They now have a ridiculous amount of data coming in to improve it. Give it a couple more years.

[jaycee + 348]

8 hours ago, DA? said:

The energy suppliers are on the most part looking forward to EV's, it's a massive market that will help take some of the pain away as people and many companies move over to solar and storage. Yes grids will need to be changed to enable the renewable's to take over, although part of this cost can be offset due to for most of the worlds population renewables are/becoming cheaper than fossil or nuclear. It's very achievable

Tom's thread today I feel is very apt to you DA. 

The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.

[DA? + 301]

14 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Tom's thread today I feel is very apt to you DA. 

The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
The most basic form of mind control is repetition.

I do find my self repeating over and over because people keep repeating the same old crap.

[jaycee + 348]

9 minutes ago, DA? said:

I do find my self repeating over and over because people keep repeating the same old crap.

Different people disagree with you yet you keep saying the same stuff, perhaps there is a clue there.

[DA? + 301]

1 hour ago, jaycee said:

Different people disagree with you yet you keep saying the same stuff, perhaps there is a clue there.

Yup I think there is I've seen the same thing before in the nuclear industry. People on the inside live in a bubble. Then all os a sudden the industry is stuffed.

[Red + 252]

2 hours ago, jaycee said:

Tom's thread today I feel is very apt to you DA. 

The most basic form of mind control is repetition.
... ad infinitum.

Whereas the most basic form of mindlesness is a vacuum.  

You do realise there is a wealth of data out there you could bring to the table?

The UK, for example, has more EV charging points than the USA. The rate of annual increase in EV sales is staggering: Global EV data

Major vehicle manufacturers are rapidly altering their production profiles to increase the range of EV options while reducing their commitment to ICE.  

If you do not think the writing is already on the wall, what are you suggesting?

[jaycee + 348]

12 minutes ago, Red said:

Whereas the most basic form of mindlesness is a vacuum.  

You do realise there is a wealth of data out there you could bring to the table?

The UK, for example, has more EV charging points than the USA. The rate of annual increase in EV sales is staggering: Global EV data

Major vehicle manufacturers are rapidly altering their production profiles to increase the range of EV options while reducing their commitment to ICE.  

If you do not think the writing is already on the wall, what are you suggesting?

What I am saying is constantly repeating the same facts on multiple threads no matter what anyone says smacks off someone trying to convince others off his point of view regardless of the rational arguments made against him many times.

[Red + 252]

4 hours ago, jaycee said:

What I am saying is constantly repeating the same facts on multiple threads no matter what anyone says smacks off someone trying to convince others off his point of view regardless of the rational arguments made against him many times.

Not everyone reads every thread.  This thread is cleary specific to EVs and his posts have responded accordingly, unlike yours.

[jaycee + 348]

2 hours ago, Red said:

Not everyone reads every thread.  This thread is cleary specific to EVs and his posts have responded accordingly, unlike yours.

So I should post the same reply that I and others have given before on other renewables threads? Constant repetition of the same argument regards renewables on a website for oil and gas looks like trolling and feeding trolls does not make them go away.

Edited December 5, 2018 by jaycee

[ronwagn + 6,290]

The existing fleet of ICE engines can be easily converted to natural gas if gasoline and ethanol blends become too pricey. All those SUVs have plenty of room on their roofs. 

I am tired of hearing about expensive electric vehicles replacing ICE vehicles. No new data to back it up. Projections are just guesses. 

For current data on natural gas fuel please sign up https://ngtnews.com/  https://www.facebook.com/NGTNews  https://twitter.com/NGTNews

 

[Red + 252]

7 minutes ago, jaycee said:

So I should post the same reply that I and others have given before on other renewables threads? Constant repetition of the same argument regards renewables on a website for oil and gas looks like trolling and feeding trolls does not make them go away.

No, you should shut down what you consider is not accurate with something credible.

Oil and to a lesser extent gas will remain important ingredients in the global transport mix for a good while to come. The issues to address is the rate of change viv a vis renewables.  Separately, developing economies are increasingly adopting more cost-effective energy sources thereby further eroding what was ten years ago "a given" in terms of market share being allocated to carbon.

 

[Red + 252]

16 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I am tired of hearing about expensive electric vehicles replacing ICE vehicles. No new data to back it up. Projections are just guesses. 

You should have looked at some of the actual data (not projections) in my earlier link.  In the USA Tesla 3s are now a dominant force in high end purchases.  So expense is clearly not an inhibiting factor for many consumers.

[DA? + 301]

8 hours ago, jaycee said:

What I am saying is constantly repeating the same facts on multiple threads no matter what anyone says smacks off someone trying to convince others off his point of view regardless of the rational arguments made against him many times.

I keep repeating myself as the same points are constantly repeated and the "rational arguments" are nothing of the sort more like repeated mantra from the Cult of Dinosaur Juice. Did you see the link to the article I posted in Seeking Alpha?