Paris Is Burning Over Climate Change Taxes -- Is America Next?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

Roughly 35,000 migrants have crossed the border into Canada at unofficial entry points since early 2017.

The influx came amid the election, inauguration and resulting escalation in anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies of U.S. President Donald Trump.

On Jan. 28, Trudeau posted a tweet that Conservative critics have argued encouraged what turned into a wave of irregular migration. ...

Both Canada and the USA have historically had an open-door policy for "most" refugees.   There were exceptions.  Both Canada and the US refused entry to Jews fleeing Germany.  The US certainly and Canada likely had various Asian exclusion policies, although that did not stop the importation of Chinese laborers to construct the mountain sections of the Western Railways. Canada typically admitted immigrants from the other nations of the British Empire, known as "Commonwealth countries."  Both Canada and the US favored migrants from Europe.

All that changed after the introduction of Communism in various parts of Europe. The Communists were the bogeymen of that era, and you found them or their sympathizers, known generically as "comsymps" or "Reds," under every bed, in Hollywood, and particularly in the US State Department, according to the rantings of Senator Joe McCarthy  (who in turn gave us the phrase "McCarthyism," for irrational fears and wrongful labellings of people not like yourself).  "Kill a Commie for Christ" was the shouted slogan of the day. 

Canada has been the historical destination for Americans targeted by the Hard Right of the decade.  Going back to 1779 through 1814, fully one-third of the US population fled the USA for Canada.  They were branded "Loyalists" or secret British sympathizers, the Comsymps of that era, and their property seized and their goods looted.  Blacks fleeing slavery went via the Underground Railroad into Canada, as refugees. People fleeing the Communist autocracies of Eastern Europe also ended up in large numbers in Canada, which maintained an open-door policy, mostly to be re-settled in the agricultural areas of the West:  Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta.  You will find their descendants there, complete with the (Russian) Orthodox churches, those onion domes that symbolize Russia. Ukraine, Poland, and the Baltic States are heavily represented. 

The desire for "more people" to fill out the sparse hamlets of the North and West has long driven both the Canadian mentality and Ottawa policy.  In the last thirty years, this has not worked out, as the new waves of migrants have all ended up in the cities, in large numbers in Montreal, The Metro Toronto area, and Vancouver.  American migrants have gone to Toronto and Calgary. Meanwhile, some 25 million Canadians live in the USA, most of which are undocumented, the single largest group of "illegal aliens" whom everybody ignores as they simply blend in and become indistinguishable from the locals.  And, in very small numbers, Native groups such as the Mohawks of Upstate New York will move back and forth, undocumented due to ancient treaty rights.  

So the picture of North American migration is much more fluid and much more nuanced than Donald Trump or Mr. Kirkmam's "The Daily Caller" would have you think.  The nuances are lost on just about everybody. Still, it is what it is. And yes, people of the USA do flee to Canada today to escape Mr. Trump and his Greenshirts, just as they did in 1800.  Canada is the ultimate end of the US refugee trail. 

[Red + 252]

15 hours ago, TXPower said:

As I have pointed out before, getting to the truth is, well, difficult.  Did the policies which were claimed to exist, actually exist as they were claimed?  I have followed some of these issues from Australia's media (we actually have a quasi-comedy show on the ABC which does fact checking on US policies) so getting to the truth of such claims is not at all hard.

Just when you think you’ve found it....  Fact-check.org is funded by the Annenberg Public Policy Foundation which although founded by a conservative, is not necessarily a conservative foundation any longer.   Obama chaired the Chicago Annenberg Challenge while still in Chicago with great influence over millions of dollars in Annenberg Foundation money.  Foundation money like that isn’t placed under the control of just anyone.  Factcheck may not be as fair and balanced as they’d have us believe.  I’m not exactly sure who to believe and doubt I’m alone. If you were concerned to know, then do your own research and inform yourself.

What is amusing in this day and age, where access to original sources of information is mostly free and instant, is the tendency to blame the messenger because it suits your political agenda.  

The title of this thread blames climate change taxes and poses the question about America being next to burn. The superficiality of the linked article was immediately clear because from the outset if failed miserably on so many fronts, but most especially there was no analysis of the French budget which immediately predicated the events in in Paris.  The article drew more long bows than a medieval war, and maybe some have been sucked in to media outlets reporting along similar lines.  

So here's one back at at Tom:

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

19 hours ago, Red said:

I pointed out that what you said was not likely to be true, despite your claims.  Who and what you believe is a mater for you alone.  However if you choose to present facts then it would be good to know that there was a reasoned basis for them, and ascribing Trump hardly offers confidence.

Reality check: The facts behind the “missing” immigrant children

[Illurion + 894]

13 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

All it takes is for us (=Europe and US) to stop abusing and pillaging Africa.

Good luck on your journey.

But it will not be successful,  and will further Bankrupt what is left of the EU.

Libya,  Somalia, and a half dozen other African countries are countries in name only,  as Islamic terrorism keeps them unstable very much like Hezbollah keeps Lebanon unstable.

South Africa is in the midst of expropriating the lands and businesses of the remaining White people living there, (and don't be surprised if many are killed)  further destabilizing that country.   They are also talking about nationalizing industries.   (another venezuela situation for the future)

The few stable countries are short of funds / investment,  and are agreeing to Chinese funding.

In all honesty,   the citizens of the US cannot afford to rebuild the entire African continent,  and neither can the EU.

As funny as it sounds,  THE BEST WAY TO HELP AFRICA AT THE MOMENT IS TO LET THE CHINESE SINK THEIR MONEY INTO AFRICA.   IT IS NOT NECESSARILY IN THE USA OR EU'S INTERESTS,  BUT IT IS IN AFRICA'S INTEREST.  SO LET CHINA DO IT.

Although frankly,  i believe they would fail too.

That is my opinion.

[Illurion + 894]

23 hours ago, Red said:

I pointed out that what you said was not likely to be true, despite your claims. 

Who and what you believe is a mater for you alone.  However if you choose to present facts then it would be good to know that there was a reasoned basis for them, and ascribing Trump hardly offers confidence.

No,  you pointed out what an alleged fact-checking entity says.

I learned long ago to "consider the source" regarding such entities,  as they are often wrong, biased, corrupt,  and contain propaganda.

As for confidence,  i have far more faith in Trump's GUESSES,  than in most peoples facts.

I felt the same way about Reagan.

So,  as i said before,   believe who and what you want,   but i believe TRUMP on this issue.

Have a nice evening and Merry Christmas.

 

[Red + 252]

30 minutes ago, Illurion said:

No,  you pointed out what an alleged fact-checking entity says.  Stop being lazy. US policy on this matter is easy to source.   

I learned long ago to "consider the source" regarding such entities,  as they are often wrong, biased, corrupt,  and contain propaganda.  Clearly you do not bother!  Use the "source" to fact check the fact checker .  In this case it is US legislation, and it definitely was not Obama who initiated the capacity for authorities to detain children.

As for confidence,  i have far more faith in Trump's GUESSES,  than in most peoples facts.  Again, not really a defence - the number of lies he has told is stunning - so it's hard to tell who is more ignorant.

I felt the same way about Reagan.  Reagan was politically adept compared to Trump. 

So,  as i said before,   believe who and what you want,   but i believe TRUMP on this issue.  Again, source the facts and present them.  Is it really that hard? 

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, Illurion said:

As for confidence,  i have far more faith in Trump's GUESSES,  than in most peoples facts.

 

 

Wow - this forum is full of awesome entertainment.

 

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/22/2018 at 2:13 AM, shadowkin said:

The market is up 30% since Trump was elected. Record low unemployment. A Jew from a small northeastern state who poses as a socialist doesn’t have a hope in hell of being elected president of the United States. Democrats made a show of him in 2016 but everyone knew he wouldn’t be nominated to even contend for the presidency.

mark my words, mate. Trump won't get re-elected and next democratic president would be of socialistic persuasion. Simple idea appear to masses, unlike those which works.

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/22/2018 at 1:33 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Jeez I hope not.  Socialism is not a workable, long term solution.  Venezuela is a key example of Socialism done correctly.

@Tom Kirkman, there is no shortage of Socialistic experiments and outcome is always same. But it gets repeated time and time again because now we will do it right!

I'm not looking forward to this future but lesson of history is that nobody learns from it.

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:18 PM, Jan van Eck said:

That is certainly true - however, the Chinese do have a feedback loop, albeit one opaque to Westerners.  Their criteria for success are not immediately apparent.  If they build apartment buildings that remain empty because nobody can afford them, that is still a goal accomplishment - it put large numbers of men to work and created money velocity with the salaries paid and the materials purchased.  That works for the Chinese.  Cheers.

historically, feedback loop in China was revolt of the masses.

Some of the empty apartments is misunderstood as malinvestment - people are buying it emopty (with concrete walls) during construction phase and some keep it for price appreciation. But there is serious bubble there; square meter in smaller cities like Xi'An or Chengdu cost ~20,000 rbm while Beijing and Shanghai are in ~100K range. Makes no sense to me but if you live in China, you need to have a place of registration to send kids to school, visit hospital etc.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

37 minutes ago, DanilKa said:

@Tom Kirkman, there is no shortage of Socialistic experiments and outcome is always same. But it gets repeated time and time again because now we will do it right!

I'm not looking forward to this future but lesson of history is that nobody learns from it.

Not really.  Large chunks of modern society's programs started out as socialist experiments in the past.  Trade unions, for example.  Pensions.  Public schools.  Variations on health care.  All kinds of things.  The idea that "socialism" ends in disaster is only due to the venal and corrupt nature of the people who lead it to disaster.  Mr. Maduro is the prime example.   

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/23/2018 at 7:24 PM, Jan van Eck said:

Not really.  Large chunks of modern society's programs started out as socialist experiments in the past.  Trade unions, for example.  Pensions.  Public schools.  Variations on health care.  All kinds of things.  The idea that "socialism" ends in disaster is only due to the venal and corrupt nature of the people who lead it to disaster.  Mr. Maduro is the prime example.   

You are illustrating my point nicely. Bad leaders, not sticking to the script, etc, etc. Give it another chance! ...

I do see unions as parasites, pension system is failing big time in many places, public education sucks with a few exceptions and I've survived public healthcare to tell the tale.

Let them try it - there is no stopping to it anyway

Edited January 2, 2019 by DanilKa

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

2 hours ago, DanilKa said:

@Tom Kirkman, there is no shortage of Socialistic experiments and outcome is always same. But it gets repeated time and time again because now we will do it right!

I'm not looking forward to this future but lesson of history is that nobody learns from it.

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 12/21/2018 at 7:45 PM, Jan van Eck said:

Oh, please.  Trump's immigration policies are about as mean-spirited as you can get.  Taking infants from mothers?  Locking children in detention cells?  Losing children, after the parents are deported, never to see their children again?  Your little kid is snatched away by some brute with a gun, and that is the last you see of your daughter on the planet earth - because the bureaucracy cannot record her name or keep track of her?  

No thinking person can subscribe to that brutality.  Trump is a con artist, a liar, a scoundrel, and a monster.  The people who support and administer those policies are unfathomably cruel, serious psychopaths, without a shred of decency or empathy.  

Nope.  2 short videos:

Presidents Obama and Clinton, decrying illegal immigration:

https://mobile.twitter.com/phil4gop/status/1076565841804697600

Senator Chuck Schumer, decrying illegal immigration:

https://media.8ch.net/file_store/072e1874b6b950a672921f4dbebacac68dc14b6f14454f2ed52c6c5da48150c0.mp4

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Nope.  2 short videos:

Presidents Obama and Clinton, decrying illegal immigration:

https://mobile.twitter.com/phil4gop/status/1076565841804697600

Senator Chuck Schumer, decrying illegal immigration:

https://media.8ch.net/file_store/072e1874b6b950a672921f4dbebacac68dc14b6f14454f2ed52c6c5da48150c0.mp4

I just wacthed both videos. I don't really see where they talk about seperating kids from parents? Am I missing something?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

19 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I just watched both videos. I don't really see where they talk about separating kids from parents? Am I missing something?

Yes, you are.  What you are missing is that folks who see "socialism" as the bogeyman simply cannot abide the fundamental truth that a good chunk of society's overall improvement have come about through what are tagged as "socialist" programs.  Moving past that, you see Tom Kirkman (above) pointing to remarks made by Obama, Clinton, and Schumer, as if they are somehow "socialists.'  Although some argument on that score could be made as to Senator Schumer, to tag Presidents Obama and Clinton as such is just silly.  Both those men are capitalists, and they took huge amounts of campaign money from the capitalist crowd, mostly from bankers on Wall Street.  In the case of Mr. Clinton, you had someone with no scruples who would take money from the Devil himself.  Clinton egregiously disrupted the previous social safety-net  (known derisively as "welfare") by gutting it, in favor of chopping at the deficit and the national debt, all programs advanced by Wall Street.

  It should be carefully remembered that the Clintonista attack on "welfare" removed support underpinnings from the single most vulnerable segment of American society, young single mothers with young children. To Conservatives,  young single mothers represented the worst sort of evil:  women  (although lots were children) reproducing without husbands, or with shallow husbands who left them, and were raising children by themselves, considered anathema.  First, the targets are repugnant because they engaged in sex, which in the Conservative mind is not to be enjoyed, but endured, and second, single women specifically are not to engage in sex, as that is contrary to Evangelical principles of personal restraint.  I am disgusted by the Clintonistas for this as you don't solve social behavioral problems by thundering from the pulpit, and you certainly do nothing to treat social ills by impoverishing yet another class of future adults, perpetuating more social ills  (including raising yet another generation of poor, and inducing criminal conduct, and inducing drug consumption and distribution as an alternative income source).  Plus, let's remember that the Clintons stole from the American people with outrageous gall when they left the White House, taking with them truckloads of US Govt furniture and art works, which is rank criminal conduct that remains both unpunished and undiscussed.  {They eventually paid the Treasury some $136,000 in restitution, which was but a fraction of the value of the stolen items, but better than nothing, I suppose.) 

Getting past Clinton and Obama as Wall Street solicitors for cash, it must be pointed out that, no matter their gross transgressions, that is a long, long way from where the really rotten people who work for Trump, and Trump himself, have gone.  Trump has taken America into a very dark place, where the cruelty of the punishment - for crossing the Southern Border without immigration papers - is the whole idea.  The purpose of the child-separation policy is and was specifically intended to inflict the most possible pain and anguish, so as to discourage others.  The bureaucracy took these small children, who could not speak and could not speak or did not know their own name, did not know where they came from, and knew Mom only as "mama" and dad only as "papa" - and then, horrifically, took them away from the parents without creating any sort of paper trail.  It thus becomes impossible, short of DNA testing and matching, to ever reunite those toddlers and infants with their parents.  There are now thousands of these little kids in US Govt custody, basically in jails, who are never, ever, going to be united with their parents.  They are government-manufactured orphans, even worse than if you shot the parents dead, because they will grow up with the haunting knowledge that they have family out there, somewhere, and zero chance of ever finding them. 

You think, maybe, that those toddlers are going to grow up angry?  That the govt has manufactured a generation of future terrorists who are going to be seething with ideas of revenge?  Well, that sure occurred to me.  Does Trump give a hoot if there is another  Oklahoma Federal Building bombing in our future, as Trump is hatching two thousand new Tim McVeighs?  No chance on that. 

Now, that is the deliberate policy of the Trumpistas.  The cruelty is the policy, it is deliberate, it is manufactured for the purpose of being monstrously cruel, and it is intentional, and is a direct intention of Mr. Trump himself.  I denounce that as the callous cruelty of a monster.  Mr. Kirkman does not much like that result - hey, too bad.  It does not change the raw truth that his man is a monster.  Trump cannot be President;  America is better than that. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Nope.  2 short videos:

Presidents Obama and Clinton, decrying illegal immigration:

https://mobile.twitter.com/phil4gop/status/1076565841804697600

Senator Chuck Schumer, decrying illegal immigration:

https://media.8ch.net/file_store/072e1874b6b950a672921f4dbebacac68dc14b6f14454f2ed52c6c5da48150c0.mp4

Interesting that Rodi and Tex actually upvote the above Mr. Kirkman comment.  That someone else once denounced migrants hardly provides foundation for the cruelties of Donald Trump.  At some point, even blind "Republicanism" allegiance gives way to decency.  Or does it?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

5 hours ago, DanilKa said:

I see unions as parasites, pension system is failing big time in many places, public education sucks with few exceptions and I've survived public healthcare to tell the tale.

 

By that standard, The Roosevelt New Deal should never have been enacted, the rural people do not deserve electricity  (from the REA, another socialist project), there should be no flood-control dams in the Tennessee Valley, the Dust Bowl of Oklahoma and Texas should still be continuing as irrigation projects are government distribution of water, another Socialist idea, and building dikes around sections of New Orleans, or even helping the flood victims out of the Superdome, should not be undertaken, more Socialism.  Where do you really want to go with all that? 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

12 hours ago, Red said:

I learned long ago to "consider the source" regarding such entities,  as they are often wrong, biased, corrupt,  and contain propaganda.  Clearly you do not bother!  Use the "source" to fact check the fact checker .  In this case it is US legislation, and it definitely was not Obama who initiated the capacity for authorities to detain children.

It was not Trump and it was not Obama.  The law has in fact been there for many years and has even evolved over time.  But it has been up to various government entities whether or not to enforce the law.  Obama chose to enforce the law at various time during his 2 terms.  Trump chooses to enforce the law now: that is his policy.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

49 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

By that standard, The Roosevelt New Deal should never have been enacted, the rural people do not deserve electricity  (from the REA, another socialist project), there should be no flood-control dams in the Tennessee Valley, the Dust Bowl of Oklahoma and Texas should still be continuing as irrigation projects are government distribution of water, another Socialist idea, and building dikes around sections of New Orleans, or even helping the flood victims out of the Superdome, should not be undertaken, more Socialism.  Where do you really want to go with all that? 

I'm actually with you on this, Jan.  But I may not find the proper words.  I'll try.

There is socialism in everything about America, as Jan states just a few of the many examples.  I don't think anybody wants to argue those fine points as they are pretty much indisputable.

The problem we have and have had in society for most of my life, but certainly now, is that people define a term and take the meaning behind that term to 100% when applying it to any conversation.  Socialism = Bad.  Truth: Many socialistic programs are unavoidable in maintaining a healthy society.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

9 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

It was not Trump and it was not Obama.  The law has in fact been there for many years and has even evolved over time.  But it has been up to various government entities whether or not to enforce the law.  Obama chose to enforce the law at various time during his 2 terms.  Trump chooses to enforce the law now: that is his policy.

Wrong.  What you overlook, in blind allegiance to what you are thinking are "Republican" principles, is that now the children, and especially infants and toddlers, are being separated from the parents and placed into detention - with no paper trail, thus making the children "lost."

Interesting that you cannot see that. 

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

2 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Wrong.  What you overlook, in blind allegiance to what you are thinking are "Republican" principles, is that now the children, and especially infants and toddlers, are being separated from the parents and placed into detention - with no paper trail, thus making the children "lost."

Interesting that you cannot see that. 

 

Easy, big fella.  I'm not saying it is ok, in any case, to separate children from their mothers.  We are better than that.  I am saying that both parties have used the law in its evolving form for political purposes, at a cost to human lives.  Human lives have been affected in manners unacceptable in every form.  I am just as sick of everyone arguing over "it was your president, not mine" as you are.  Drop the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter everyone: it is not ok to separate children from their mothers.  We are in fact very capable of working this out.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 minute ago, Dan Warnick said:

Easy, big fella.  I'm not saying it is ok, in any case, to separate children from their mothers.  We are better than that.  I am saying that both parties have used the law in its evolving form for political purposes, at a cost to human lives.  Human lives have been affected in manners unacceptable in every form.  I am just as sick of everyone arguing over "it was your president, not mine" as you are.  Drop the bullshit and get to the heart of the matter everyone: it is not ok to separate children from their mothers.  We are in fact very capable of working this out.

The problem now is that the water has already spilled over the dam.  the parents are deported, and the children remain.  What Obama did was also equally monstrous, and that demonstrates that, notwithstanding the cant from the blind right, he was no more a "Socialist" than Generalissimo Franco.  The operational difference was that his Administration detained the parents and the children as a cohesive family unit.  So you did not get this separation problem.

When a Federal Judge Ordered a US Attorney out there is the Southwest to be before the Judge with a comprehensive list of the children now lost inside the System, by Monday, the Asst US Attorney replied, "Sorry, Judge, I cannot do that, I promised some people I would dog-sit their dogs, and you know how anxious dogs get when they are left unattended, so I will have to be dog-sitting and cannot deal with the lost children matter."   I think that remark represents Republican thinking:  somebody else's dogs, who that somebody else chooses not to put in a kennel as it would make them grumpy, need to be dog-sat and the two thousand lost and jailed children will have to wait. 

And the reason the children will have to wait in the detention prisons is that the Federal Republicans want to inflict as much gratuitous hurt as they possibly can.  Because they are Spanish-speaking, from "down there."

It is this deliberate policy of hurting that is so appalling and so repugnant.  It is a specialty of the mentally disturbed. It needs denunciation from every corner, from every public square, from every typewriter, in every forum.  It is a monstrous cruelty, and mark my words, it will come back in twenty years with yet another two thousand acts of terror and murder, as revenge. 

That is the Dark Side of the Force, into the Evil of the Galactic Empire, where Donald Trump is taking us all. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

For people on both sides of the argument, read some articles at least trying to be based on the truth.  It is horrific any way you look at it.

THE FACTS BEHIND THE HEADLINES: FAMILY SEPARATION

Here is one from Time:

Here Are the Facts About President Trump's Family Separation Policy

Here is one by the Associated Press:

AP FACT CHECK: Obama didn’t have family separation policy

[Illurion + 894]

3 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Interesting that Rodi and Tex actually upvote the above Mr. Kirkman comment.  That someone else once denounced migrants hardly provides foundation for the cruelties of Donald Trump.  At some point, even blind "Republicanism" allegiance gives way to decency.  Or does it?

So you are saying that Republicans are "INDECENT"   ?

As if you believed that YOU were "DECENT".

You know,  i'll bet that if YOU were President,    you would do things very differently than the way you talk.

 

What if i, or someone on this board stated that everyone from Vermont is "INDECENT" ?

What would you say then ?

 

You love to attack other people for doing things that you do yourself ?

There is a word for that.  It is:   Hypocrite.

ps:  i upvoted the post too.

pps:   i enjoy reading many of your posts.  but not all.