Storage will in time change the landscape for electricity

[John Foote + 1,135]

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/sonnen-residential-batteries-ready-to-compete-with-fossil-fuels-and-nuclear

Still early days yet really. But with storage combined with distributed power may well become the way to go. For now it can work in some cases because of the differentials in buying power at peak times, verses low use times. 

[markslawson + 1,042]

4 hours ago, John Foote said:

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/sonnen-residential-batteries-ready-to-compete-with-fossil-fuels-and-nuclear

Still early days yet really. But with storage combined with distributed power may well become the way to go. For now it can work in some cases because of the differentials in buying power at peak times, verses low use times. 

John - this is a much repeated mantra, but the mantra has its problems. I note that you've linked to a news story about a German battery company that is only a step or so up from a press release. For a moment I was interested that the batteries are now able to perform frequency management duties but then I thought "they're leaving frequency management up to individuals?" But you will note the article does not give even the retail price of the batteries, let alone any real analysis about how any of this might work. Bear in mind that Germany is a poster-child of how NOT to implement renewable energy. The place has spent billions on solar panels although it doesn't get much sunshine, so the  battery-panel combo that might have some relevance in Queensland in Australia (tropical) or in Southern California, is of limited use in North Germany. Now that I think of it the batteries in the article are meant for major facilities which may do this frequency management business. It may also store energy. One set up in South Australia has been shown to actually make money rather than lose it through the buy-low sell-high strategy you mentioned, so there may be a chance for the units. The margins were low, however. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Hopefully, battery technology will grow greatly but it seems to be at a roadblock right now. I will be watching for progress. We should aim for energy redundancy IMHO. I fear electromagnetic pulse attacks or natural anomalies. 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/military-warns-emp-attack-could-wipe-out-america-democracy-world-order

Edited December 18, 2018 by ronwagn
added reference

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 12/13/2018 at 5:39 PM, markslawson said:

But you will note the article does not give even the retail price of the batteries, let alone any real analysis about how any of this might work. Bear in mind that Germany is a poster-child of how NOT to implement renewable energy. 

I agree on the strangeness of Germany going after solar, except perhaps they thought they'd be a position of strength for exporting the technology. China cut their legs out from everyone there. Storage is, or rather will be, a part of the solution. Flow batteries, which don't really get smaller than a shipping a 40' shipping container, are probably going to work on a small industrial, or neighborhood scale. And of course rural areas it's cheaper than building the grid to the middle of nowhere and relying on diesel.  You can even forget the renewable part, just buy electricity on the ultra cheap during off hours, and they sell back during peak times.  Time shifting demand will become big business. People in houses tend to buy at fixed rates, industrial consumers, not so much. 

[Red + 252]

13 minutes ago, John Foote said:

I agree on the strangeness of Germany going after solar, except perhaps they thought they'd be a position of strength for exporting the technology. China cut their legs out from everyone there. Storage is, or rather will be, a part of the solution. Flow batteries, which don't really get smaller than a shipping a 40' shipping container, are probably going to work on a small industrial, or neighborhood scale. And of course rural areas it's cheaper than building the grid to the middle of nowhere and relying on diesel.  You can even forget the renewable part, just buy electricity on the ultra cheap during off hours, and they sell back during peak times.  Time shifting demand will become big business. People in houses tend to buy at fixed rates, industrial consumers, not so much. 

What the media reports and what is true, is often different.  Germany is positioned as a low cost producer of electricity and is nowadays a major exporter in Europe, even to France: Germany is a net exporter of energy. 

I agree that flow batteries are likely to play a strong role in future electricity supply, but presently cannot see the commercial imperative in Western economies.  Unless government energy policy provide a strong incentive it will take time to get a foothold, especially where grid infrastructure strongly supports the status quo.

It is possible that governments could look at awarding contracts specifically for peak supply periods, and if this practice gets traction, then renewables and storage, via flow batteries, can be commercially attractive. That's because it's far easier to plan supply against known demand when you also know the limits of what you can supply.  It also then allows other forms of electricity generation to do what they do best, making the job for supply regulators much simpler.

[markslawson + 1,042]

Sadly if trading electricity is as simple and profitable as you say then everyone will do it and the margin will disappear. Ther are plenty of micro-grids around but, unless its like Barrow Island off Alaska which already had 90 per cent of so hydro, so going totally renewable was no challenge, it is difficult to find one, even in the Australian outback, that can get above 40 per cent renewables.. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

47 minutes ago, John Foote said:

I agree on the strangeness of Germany going after solar, except perhaps they thought they'd be a position of strength for exporting the technology. China cut their legs out from everyone there. Storage is, or rather will be, a part of the solution. Flow batteries, which don't really get smaller than a shipping a 40' shipping container, are probably going to work on a small industrial, or neighborhood scale. And of course rural areas it's cheaper than building the grid to the middle of nowhere and relying on diesel.  You can even forget the renewable part, just buy electricity on the ultra cheap during off hours, and they sell back during peak times.  Time shifting demand will become big business. People in houses tend to buy at fixed rates, industrial consumers, not so much. 

Great point! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

[ronwagn + 6,290]

14 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Sadly if trading electricity is as simple and profitable as you say then everyone will do it and the margin will disappear. Ther are plenty of micro-grids around but, unless its like Barrow Island off Alaska which already had 90 per cent of so hydro, so going totally renewable was no challenge, it is difficult to find one, even in the Australian outback, that can get above 40 per cent renewables.. 

There are a lot of people living off the grid that could use energy storage of whatever size they need and can afford. Personally, I am in favor of energy security through redundant systems. I have been through an ice storm outage of several days and I fear EMP attack, as does the Department of Defense. Food and housing are about the only thing more fundamental than electricity for modern life. I would love to have a backup electricity system even though I am on the grid. Batteries are a lot easier to keep running than old generators that are rarely used. 

[Red + 252]

 

4 hours ago, markslawson said:

There are plenty of micro-grids around but, unless its like Barrow Island off Alaska which already had 90 per cent of so hydro, so going totally renewable was no challenge, it is difficult to find one, even in the Australian outback, that can get above 40 per cent renewables.. 

That claim is not well founded, eg: Santos project goes 100% renewables.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Red
fixed format

[John Foote + 1,135]

There are folks in Texas that making a living selling electricity to the grid using diesel at silly amounts per kilowatt hour, feeding peaks in the summer at rates batteries could beat. Often diesel is already on standby for emergency applications, things like hospitals and data centers cannot go down, and have redundancies looking for ways to cash in on the just doing nothing asset. For me there are no silver bullets, but a mix of technologies that will work. Put all your bets in one basket, even a good one like natural gas, and somewhere over the decades you will get fried.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

I suggest that the more logical development (instead of batteries) will be Flywheels.  A flywheel is a simple device, it is purely mechanical, and the energy storage is vast.  They can be built on a production line and easily shipped and installed.  As a practical matter a flywheel is indestructible and maintenance-free.  If you life totally off-grid then a flywheel in the basement will carry you through for a week or more.  Industrial flywheels can accept huge power surges both in and out.  A flywheel has the ability to absorb heavily-loaded motors at start without ramping devices, good for well-water pumps that will strain or trip out battery packs  (unless the battery pack and inverter is way oversize).  

A flywheel is basically what a rotational condenser is, although a condenser is a lot fancier. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

I suggest that the more logical development (instead of batteries) will be Flywheels.  A flywheel is a simple device, it is purely mechanical, and the energy storage is vast.  They can be built on a production line and easily shipped and installed.  As a practical matter a flywheel is indestructible and maintenance-free.  If you life totally off-grid then a flywheel in the basement will carry you through for a week or more.  Industrial flywheels can accept huge power surges both in and out.  A flywheel has the ability to absorb heavily-loaded motors at start without ramping devices, good for well-water pumps that will strain or trip out battery packs  (unless the battery pack and inverter is way oversize).  

A flywheel is basically what a rotational condenser is, although a condenser is a lot fancier. 

Please explain how this works.  Also, would it store electricity for 1-8 hours, a day, a week?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Please explain how this works.  Also, would it store electricity for 1-8 hours, a day, a week?

A flywheel stores energy by the square of the mass but also by the cube of the rotational speed.  Thus the physics of flywheels is that you make it light, of composite materials such as carbon fiber, and spin it very fast, up to 100,000 rpm.  That means you need magnetic bearings and a vacuum, and you use no commutator.  Now, a flywheel built like that would store vast amounts of energy, and the spin-down time would be over four months.  Bugt, to build the first ones would take a big gob of cash.  You can see some industry building ones for municipal use, they would be the size of a small two-story house. 

Remember that old flywheels were built of big stone slabs, and parked on wood bearings greased with cow tallow  (animal fat).  The Dutch used these in the windmills for centuries.  Later, flywheels were used in the US Midwest built of maranged steel.  A steel flywheel was put inside a bus by the Oerlikon Electrogyro company of Bern, Switzerland, the bus had two men, the rear man would hop out at the stops and put up a collector pole to contact a short strip of copper suspended above the stop, the flywheel would spin up, and the bus would have the stored energy to go off to the next charge point a mile further.  But remember that those were primitive flywheels, with direct mechanical drives,  A modern flywheel would have copper windings embedded inside the fiber composite material. 

There was also a gyro bus in service I think in Brussels, it operated on some suburban-city route, I think it is still viewable in a museum over there.  You could probably track it all down in the internet, amazing stuff, the internet tells all. Cheers.

[Stormin 0]

For all those who believe Solar & Wind is the future.

should listen to this video sources below on video!  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVnI6O3S7M

[Red + 252]

2 hours ago, Stormin said:

For all those who believe Solar & Wind is the future.  should listen to this video sources below on video!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJVnI6O3S7M

This site badly needs another good conspiracy theory.

[DanilKa + 443]

seems fitting this thread:

https://ourfiniteworld.com/2018/12/20/electricity-wont-save-us-from-our-oil-problems/

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:54 PM, Red said:

 

That claim is not well founded, eg: Santos project goes 100% renewables.

 

looks like PR stunt to me. Grant money is likely another driver. Wondering how they planning to keep the panels above the water during the wet season...

Project payout is longer than 7 years - likely exceeding number of battery cycles. May make sense if wells are cycled and can be pumped off during the peak generation.

[Red + 252]

7 hours ago, DanilKa said:

looks like PR stunt to me. Grant money is likely another driver. Wondering how they planning to keep the panels above the water during the wet season...

Project payout is longer than 7 years - likely exceeding number of battery cycles. May make sense if wells are cycled and can be pumped off during the peak generation.

There is no wet season in the Cooper Basin - the area is dry and barren Santos Cooper Basin site and requires exceptional rainfall events for the Cooper Creek to flow.  Santos has not revealed the battery technology, but your idea of payback being longer than 7 years is just a guess: flow batteries for example have a life of 20 years+.

[Stormin 0]

On 12/20/2018 at 1:56 PM, Red said:

This site badly needs another good conspiracy theory.

I'm sure you believe in Climate Change & Litter the Landscape with wind & solar!

If it is a conspiracy theory as you say, why would the Gov hide this information all these yrs, for what I ask?

if LHO killed JFK why not release the infor to the public unredacted to the public what are they hiding?

 

[Red + 252]

9 hours ago, Stormin said:

I'm sure you believe in Climate Change & Litter the Landscape with wind & solar!

If it is a conspiracy theory as you say, why would the Gov hide this information all these yrs, for what I ask?

if LHO killed JFK why not release the infor to the public unredacted to the public what are they hiding?

 

Many of us live normal lives and use our nouse to work out stuff we would like to understand better.

WRT to climate change, the issue is what you understand if you want to discuss it openly, which means it's a matter of what informs your belief, contraposed with blind faith.

WRT to JFK, around 5 million pages of information has been released and is openly available. Even Trump has not required agencies to release information which may, apparently, jeopardise the nation's security.

WRT to GALT, where is the evidence to what you claim? 

 

[Janet Alderton + 124]

Just ignore the conspiracy theorist echo chamber.

[DanilKa + 443]

On 12/22/2018 at 7:47 AM, Red said:

There is no wet season in the Cooper Basin - the area is dry and barren Santos Cooper Basin site and requires exceptional rainfall events for the Cooper Creek to flow.  Santos has not revealed the battery technology, but your idea of payback being longer than 7 years is just a guess: flow batteries for example have a life of 20 years+.

mate, I live in Australia and work with Santos. Transformers for ESPs are installed on platforms and it is not uncommon for wellheads to go under water - there are floodplains there. Flash floods as well. But yeah, Santos folks ain't spring chicken, I'm sure they design height of solar stacks accordingly.

7 years is not a guess but second grade math assuming current oil price.

[Stormin 0]

On 12/22/2018 at 4:34 PM, Red said:

Many of us live normal lives and use our nouse to work out stuff we would like to understand better.

WRT to climate change, the issue is what you understand if you want to discuss it openly, which means it's a matter of what informs your belief, contraposed with blind faith.

WRT to JFK, around 5 million pages of information has been released and is openly available. Even Trump has not required agencies to release information which may, apparently, jeopardise the nation's security.

WRT to GALT, where is the evidence to what you claim? 

 

It was in the video on the pull down tab.

https://fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

https://aim4truth.org/2018/04/15/thorium-energy-technology-can-free-the-world-from-nuclear-poisons-today/

https://aim4truth.org/2017/04/24/the-real-energy-revolution-has-begun/

https://aim4truth.org/2018/11/21/galt-the-best-kept-secret-in-the-world-that-could-free-humanity-with-unlimited-free-energy/

[Red + 252]

44 minutes ago, Stormin said:

It was in the video on the pull down tab.

If that is what you call evidence, then I remain unconvinced.

I refer you to Janet Alderton's earlier post.

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 12/20/2018 at 5:50 AM, Jan van Eck said:

A flywheel stores energy by the square of the mass but also by the cube of the rotational speed. 

Flywheel storage has been around for some time. The usage I know if was for almost instant on-demand electrical storage for applications that can't risk electrical power interruption, like a hospital operating room. The flywheel just sits there, spinning at 100,000 rpm, and this wasn't a tiny thing, actually relatively large operating in a sub-atmospheric environment to reduce drag. If power is interrupted, it kicks in extremely quickly, but the power provided is short term, just waiting for the diesel to kick in.  The darn thing I saw was quite efficient, but expensive.