US-backed coup in Venezuela not so smooth

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

According to an independent polling firm, 57% of Venezuelan say Maduro is their legitimate president, while US puppet Guaido only get 32% (11% didn't give an answer).

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/02/venezuela-57-say-maduro-is-their-legitimate-president.html

In another topic, Venezuelan has deployed Russian S300. While it would be insufficient against a massive air attack, it may cool down some spirited Dr Strangelove in the Pentagone.

http://www.chroniquesdugrandjeu.com/2019/02/quelques-mauvaises-nouvelles-pour-l-empire.html

[juan szabo + 14]

That is a bogus polling company paid by Maduro's regime close to 90 % of Venezuelans want him to go. He is hanging on because of the chief military support based on their asociation with drug cartels and money laundering and widespread corruption

[TXPower + 643]

On 2/12/2019 at 11:41 PM, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

According to an independent polling firm, 57% of Venezuelan say Maduro is their legitimate president, while US puppet Guaido only get 32% (11% didn't give an answer).

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/02/venezuela-57-say-maduro-is-their-legitimate-president.html

In another topic, Venezuelan has deployed Russian S300. While it would be insufficient against a massive air attack, it may cool down some spirited Dr Strangelove in the Pentagone.

http://www.chroniquesdugrandjeu.com/2019/02/quelques-mauvaises-nouvelles-pour-l-empire.html

Starting the day with a good laugh after reading those links.

Try this on:

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4462

As for the Russian S300 deployment.  Trust me, you, the Russians, Cubans or anyone else don’t want to be around if the US decides to neutralize them and their operators.  It will be over quickly and fiercly.  That’s not an endorsement from me however for  US military intervention in Venezuela.  It’s just the facts.

 

[Illurion + 894]

On 2/13/2019 at 12:41 AM, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

According to an independent polling firm, 57% of Venezuelan say Maduro is their legitimate president, while US puppet Guaido only get 32% (11% didn't give an answer).

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/02/venezuela-57-say-maduro-is-their-legitimate-president.html

In another topic, Venezuelan has deployed Russian S300. While it would be insufficient against a massive air attack, it may cool down some spirited Dr Strangelove in the Pentagone.

http://www.chroniquesdugrandjeu.com/2019/02/quelques-mauvaises-nouvelles-pour-l-empire.html

Guaido is not a USA puppet...

He was chosen by the duly elected Venezuelan Parliament...

He was subsequently "officially" recognized as the TRUE Venezuelan President by over 70 nations so far........

 

ps:  it is PENTAGON     not  "pentagone"

pps:   if the USA actually wanted to end the Maduro regime by force,  it would take about 3 minutes work by a Seal Team.

ppps:   if the USA actually wanted to destroy the Venezuelan Military,  it would take about 2 minutes via a "shock and awe" attack via missiles far more sophisticated than S300's could counter.

pppps:    but the USA isn't interested in interfering in Venezuela other than boycotting it...

Edited February 18, 2019 by Illurion

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

On 2/18/2019 at 9:16 AM, juan szabo said:

That is a bogus polling company paid by Maduro's regime close to 90 % of Venezuelans want him to go. He is hanging on because of the chief military support based on their asociation with drug cartels and money laundering and widespread corruption

Nope, it's an independent polling company. As for 90% of Venezuelans wanting Maduro to go, you should stop watching CNN and other fake news medias. The situation is far more complex than that and the society really is divided between people who want Maduro to go (a lot) and people who want him to stay (even more).

 

On 2/18/2019 at 10:25 AM, TXPower said:

As for the Russian S300 deployment.  Trust me, you, the Russians, Cubans or anyone else don’t want to be around if the US decides to neutralize them and their operators.  It will be over quickly and fiercly.  That’s not an endorsement from me however for  US military intervention in Venezuela.  It’s just the facts.

 

Clearly, a few S300 batteries isn't enough to repell a US attack, but it's a deterrent meaning : ''You want to invade us, it won't be on the cheap, you'll have to put some extras''...

 

On 2/18/2019 at 11:34 AM, Illurion said:

Guaido is not a USA puppet...

He was chosen by the duly elected Venezuelan Parliament...

He was subsequently "officially" recognized as the TRUE Venezuelan President by over 70 nations so far........

 

ps:  it is PENTAGON     not  "pentagone"

pps:   if the USA actually wanted to end the Maduro regime by force,  it would take about 3 minutes work by a Seal Team.

ppps:   if the USA actually wanted to destroy the Venezuelan Military,  it would take about 2 minutes via a "shock and awe" attack via missiles far more sophisticated than S300's could counter.

pppps:    but the USA isn't interested in interfering in Venezuela other than boycotting it...

An unelected ''president'' who proclaims himself president ? What about Pelosi doing the same in the US ?

70 nations = 1/3 of the world. 2/3 of the world doesn't recognise his coup attempt.

pps & ppps : sure, just like in Iraq, Afghanistan... So many US successes, heh ?

[TXPower + 643]

4 hours ago, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

Nope, it's an independent polling company. As for 90% of Venezuelans wanting Maduro to go, you should stop watching CNN and other fake news medias. The situation is far more complex than that and the society really is divided between people who want Maduro to go (a lot) and people who want him to stay (even more).

 

Clearly, a few S300 batteries isn't enough to repell a US attack, but it's a deterrent meaning : ''You want to invade us, it won't be on the cheap, you'll have to put some extras''...

 

An unelected ''president'' who proclaims himself president ? What about Pelosi doing the same in the US ?

70 nations = 1/3 of the world. 2/3 of the world doesn't recognise his coup attempt.

pps & ppps : sure, just like in Iraq, Afghanistan... So many US successes, heh ?

The articles you linked are clearly biased.

Pelosi and her ilk already think themselves our sovereigns and have been full-tilt trying to effect the demise of Trump.  As you can see the duly elected US President is still fully in control.  Is Maduro?  

We, like Venezuela, have a mechanism for removing our president.  In spite of what The US and other 1/3 of the world thinks as you point out, it’s the Venezuelan people’s game to lose.  They have a decision to make on whether they will use their constitution, which is very unclear concerning this matter, to remove him or stay a disastrous course.

As an aside, we don’t have boots on the ground there(at least not enough to offset the Cuban, Russian and Chinese boots)and have as of yet taken no overt action, beyond recognizing Guaido.  Maduro’s loving constituents and broad international support as you elude to, should keep him just fine.

We probably agree in one sense.  I don’t want to send our kids and money into Venezuela.

[Illurion + 894]

21 hours ago, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

Nope, it's an independent polling company. As for 90% of Venezuelans wanting Maduro to go, you should stop watching CNN and other fake news medias. The situation is far more complex than that and the society really is divided between people who want Maduro to go (a lot) and people who want him to stay (even more).

 

Clearly, a few S300 batteries isn't enough to repell a US attack, but it's a deterrent meaning : ''You want to invade us, it won't be on the cheap, you'll have to put some extras''...

 

An unelected ''president'' who proclaims himself president ? What about Pelosi doing the same in the US ?

70 nations = 1/3 of the world. 2/3 of the world doesn't recognise his coup attempt.

pps & ppps : sure, just like in Iraq, Afghanistan... So many US successes, heh ?

He did not PROCLAIM himself...  The Parliament chose him in a vote,  after throwing out the results of the rigged election...

Pelosi has not been voted President by the House........  Even if she had,  it would make no difference as our Constitution says the Senate makes the final decisions regarding legislative matters......

 

So dude...

What wonderful quotes are you going to give us after Maduro is killed by his own troops ?

 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

If anything, Maduro's the puppet of China and Russia.  

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

On 2/18/2019 at 2:25 PM, TXPower said:

Starting the day with a good laugh after reading those links.

Try this on:

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4462

As for the Russian S300 deployment.  Trust me, you, the Russians, Cubans or anyone else don’t want to be around if the US decides to neutralize them and their operators.  It will be over quickly and fiercly.  That’s not an endorsement from me however for  US military intervention in Venezuela.  It’s just the facts.

 

True. It won't be difficult to start a war neutralizing any isolated S300 or even 5 or 10 of them. Quickly and fiercely. What will be difficult is to win or merely finish that war. It's been 18 years since the United States invasion of Afghanistan. That war is far from being over and is considered to be lost by the U.S.. It's just the facts. And Taliban don't even have a single S300.

I sincerely hope the US doesn't start another war just to lose that one too.

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

18 hours ago, TXPower said:

The articles you linked are clearly biased.

Pelosi and her ilk already think themselves our sovereigns and have been full-tilt trying to effect the demise of Trump.  As you can see the duly elected US President is still fully in control.  Is Maduro?  

We, like Venezuela, have a mechanism for removing our president.  In spite of what The US and other 1/3 of the world thinks as you point out, it’s the Venezuelan people’s game to lose.  They have a decision to make on whether they will use their constitution, which is very unclear concerning this matter, to remove him or stay a disastrous course.

As an aside, we don’t have boots on the ground there(at least not enough to offset the Cuban, Russian and Chinese boots)and have as of yet taken no overt action, beyond recognizing Guaido.  Maduro’s loving constituents and broad international support as you elude to, should keep him just fine.

We probably agree in one sense.  I don’t want to send our kids and money into Venezuela.

Everything is biased out there. The Western presstitute clearly is on the usual propaganda bandwagon, as in Iraq, Syria... Pro-Guaido's rallies are shown 24/7, Maduro's ones are ignored :

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1098591077072814081

The problem with Venezuela is that the population is deeply divided. It's not the Western fairy tale : a nice and photogenic Guaido supported by the population while Maduro is a brutal dictator despised by everybody. Each side have millions of supporters and all that can end with a years-long civil war.

As for the boots on the ground, you know how it always starts. DC and mediatic campaign against a country/leader, so-called NGOs jump in the wagon, then CIA... Vietnam, Mossadegh etc.

 

3 hours ago, Illurion said:

He did not PROCLAIM himself...  The Parliament chose him in a vote,  after throwing out the results of the rigged election...

What wonderful quotes are you going to give us after Maduro is killed by his own troops ?

 

The opposition didn't want to participate in the election because they knew they would loose. When they participated in the 2013 election, a completely fair scrutiny dixit Carter, they just lost.

Maduro killed by his own troops ? Maybe, everything is possible. Or a CIA black-op, a Pig's Bay-style operation... What's sure is that Maduro has millions of supporters and they won't accept a US coup. But Guaido also has millions of backers. Dangerous time, bloodpath in sight...

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

If anything, Maduro's the puppet of China and Russia.  

You're not wrong in that. But less puppet than US puppet Guaido who propose to sell off Venezuela to Washington.

[TXPower + 643]

31 minutes ago, Maxim Androsov said:

True. It won't be difficult to start a war neutralizing any isolated S300 or even 5 or 10 of them. Quickly and fiercely. What will be difficult is to win or merely finish that war. It's been 18 years since the United States invasion of Afghanistan. That war is far from being over and is considered to be lost by the U.S.. It's just the facts. And Taliban don't even have a single S300.

I sincerely hope the US doesn't start another war just to lose that one too.

Well, the Russians would be experts on losing a war in Afghanistan now wouldn’t they?   I’ll take your word for it since the best metric on that front was the little foray they took there in the 70’s.

We are not going to start a war with Russia over Venezuela.  Especially over inferior military assets placed there.  I’d remind you that war between the US has been and maybe still is more likely due to a mishap in Syria.  Or somewhere else in the ME.

Russia would have to become much more provocative in Venezuela before we would start any war drums.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Maduro's already sold his country to Russia and China.  What Maduro hasn't sold, his drug lord ministers are stealing.  It's difficult to see how Guiado can do any worse.  

Edited February 21, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Sukumar Ray + 52]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:12 PM, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

Nope, it's an independent polling company. As for 90% of Venezuelans wanting Maduro to go, you should stop watching CNN and other fake news medias. The situation is far more complex than that and the society really is divided between people who want Maduro to go (a lot) and people who want him to stay (even more).

 

Clearly, a few S300 batteries isn't enough to repell a US attack, but it's a deterrent meaning : ''You want to invade us, it won't be on the cheap, you'll have to put some extras''...

 

An unelected ''president'' who proclaims himself president ? What about Pelosi doing the same in the US ?

70 nations = 1/3 of the world. 2/3 of the world doesn't recognise his coup attempt.

pps & ppps : sure, just like in Iraq, Afghanistan... So many US successes, heh ?

As per Venezuelan Constitution, Article 233 and 333, Leader of National Assembly - can proclaim himself  as Interim President during an emergency situations when Law and Order breaks down. So Guaido is Rightfully proclaimed himself as Interim President. Even most of the neighboring countries of Venezuela has supported Guaido .  Europe has also supported Guaido. Why to blame USA only ?

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

12 hours ago, TXPower said:

Well, the Russians would be experts on losing a war in Afghanistan now wouldn’t they?  

Everybody lost in Afghanistan, including the US and the victorian British. Even Genghis Khan had to try it twice before conquering Afghanistan.

 

18 minutes ago, Sukumar Ray said:

As per Venezuelan Constitution, Article 233 and 333, Leader of National Assembly - can proclaim himself  as Interim President during an emergency situations when Law and Order breaks down. So Guaido is Rightfully proclaimed himself as Interim President. Even most of the neighboring countries of Venezuela has supported Guaido .  Europe has also supported Guaido. Why to blame USA only ?

Law and order didn't break down in Venezuela. There's more disorder in France than in Venezuela. So Guaido is a putschist. If every president has to resign because of an economic crisis, almost the whole world will be president-less.

Everybody knows who leads the move to remove Maduro. The US wage a warfare against Venezuela for almost 20 years. Europe is US puppet since WWII. Some neighbours of Venezuela had to wait until a US-aligned government be lected to make a move vs Venezuela.

[Sukumar Ray + 52]

19 minutes ago, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

Everybody lost in Afghanistan, including the US and the victorian British. Even Genghis Khan had to try it twice before conquering Afghanistan.

 

Law and order didn't break down in Venezuela. There's more disorder in France than in Venezuela. So Guaido is a putschist. If every president has to resign because of an economic crisis, almost the whole world will be president-less.

Everybody knows who leads the move to remove Maduro. The US wage a warfare against Venezuela for almost 20 years. Europe is US puppet since WWII. Some neighbours of Venezuela had to wait until a US-aligned government be lected to make a move vs Venezuela.

Nobody can be a President for Life. Venezuelan Constitution does not have that provision. Presidents will come and go , but must deliver for the Nation. Guaido is your  Venezuelan Citizen and Leader of National Assembly and not a Puppet of the  Army. Maduro should call for a fresh election and Army should be neutral. Let Venezuelans elect their new President.  Let our discussion be focused on Venezuela only as per your subject posting. Situation of France can be a different topic which can be discussed separately 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Sukumar Ray

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

14 hours ago, TXPower said:

Well, the Russians would be experts on losing a war in Afghanistan now wouldn’t they?   I’ll take your word for it since the best metric on that front was the little foray they took there in the 70’s.

We are not going to start a war with Russia over Venezuela.  Especially over inferior military assets placed there.  I’d remind you that war between the US has been and maybe still is more likely due to a mishap in Syria.  Or somewhere else in the ME.

Russia would have to become much more provocative in Venezuela before we would start any war drums.

I have never implied the US will start war with Russia over Venezuela. Or have I? You are welcome to quote me then.

What I did in fact mean was that I hope the U.S. don't start another stupid war that they cannot win. It was enough of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. I would also mention Libya (although officially the US wasn't there).

As to your mention of USSR war in Afghanistan I don't think it was wise shifting subject applying whataboutism to say - "But Russia lost in Afghanistan too!" At least for USSR it didn't take 18 years to realize they cannot win and just need to pull out.   

 

[TXPower + 643]

3 hours ago, Maxim Androsov said:

I have never implied the US will start war with Russia over Venezuela. Or have I? You are welcome to quote me then.

What I did in fact mean was that I hope the U.S. don't start another stupid war that they cannot win. It was enough of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. I would also mention Libya (although officially the US wasn't there).

As to your mention of USSR war in Afghanistan I don't think it was wise shifting subject applying whataboutism to say - "But Russia lost in Afghanistan too!" At least for USSR it didn't take 18 years to realize they cannot win and just need to pull out.   

 

Oh sir, it wasn’t a whataboutism.  It was factual and a detail necessary to bring you around to the recollection of the truth. Russia when compared to the US, isn’t free from sin with regard to projecting power beyond her borders and creating armed conflict.  The Soviet’s were in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989 and had she the economic ability to stay, inspite of opinion at home held by the relatives of dead soldiers, likely would have stayed longer.  Her learning curve wasn’t shorter, her checkbook was less robust.

I always freely admit the US has some blots in our history.  Please understand I have no particular dislike of Russia.  I just recognize that she’s not on any moral high ground.

 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Venezuela is stable? Tell that to the millions who have already fled the country.  The country is an utter mess.  

Wonder how Maduro's going to stay in power when he runs out of oil money to pay his corrupt ministers and military.  

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

2 hours ago, TXPower said:

Oh sir, it wasn’t a whataboutism.  It was factual and a detail necessary to bring you around to the recollection of the truth. Russia when compared to the US, isn’t free from sin with regard to projecting power beyond her borders and creating armed conflict.  The Soviet’s were in Afghanistan from 1979 to 1989 and had she the economic ability to stay, inspite of opinion at home held by the relatives of dead soldiers, likely would have stayed longer.  Her learning curve wasn’t shorter, her checkbook was less robust.

I always freely admit the US has some blots in our history.  Please understand I have no particular dislike of Russia.  I just recognize that she’s not on any moral high ground.

 

I never implied that Russia is of "higher moral ground" than U.S. (although I might be willing to expand into this subject)  

In fact, I haven't even mentioned Russia in my 1st comment (pls see attachment). It was all about USA and Venezuela and your comment that qte/unqte "if US decides to neutralize them and their operators. It will be over quickly and fiercly". I just reminded you that it didn't happen that "quickly and fiercly", for instance, in Afghanistan. Neither did it happen well for the US in Vietnam. 60,000 dead american soldiers and millions of lost lives of innocent people in Vietnam and Laos. Despite the U.S. had all the "economic ability to stay" in Vietnam for longer, she finally realized that she cannot simply win that war, same way as Russians will realize it a decade or so later in Afghanistan. And yes, by that moment USSR didn't quite have enough "economic ability to stay". Here I totally agree with you. 

So, I'm afraid it wasn't me who decided to bring Russia issue into the discussion about the U.S. and Venezuela. But as long as she is brought, I can say that of course Russia has her own interests in Venezuela, her Rosneft investments, her fleet of commercial tankers that was fixed years ago on long terms contracts. However, I do not think Russia will suffer a lot even if all that is lost.        

[Jeff_Calgary + 68]

On 2/12/2019 at 10:41 PM, Observatus Geopoliticus said:

According to an independent polling firm, 57% of Venezuelan say Maduro is their legitimate president, while US puppet Guaido only get 32% (11% didn't give an answer).

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/02/venezuela-57-say-maduro-is-their-legitimate-president.html

In another topic, Venezuelan has deployed Russian S300. While it would be insufficient against a massive air attack, it may cool down some spirited Dr Strangelove in the Pentagone.

http://www.chroniquesdugrandjeu.com/2019/02/quelques-mauvaises-nouvelles-pour-l-empire.html

It is a Lima Group supported constitutional changing of the president as required by the fairly elected congress in Venezuela.

The US has joined the  Canadian organized Lima group and at the present time is simply joining other countries in helping with the humanitarian crisis. 

To say otherwise is just wrong.

 

[TXPower + 643]

13 minutes ago, Maxim Androsov said:

I never implied that Russia is of "higher moral ground" than U.S. (although I might be willing to expand into this subject)  

In fact, I haven't even mentioned Russia in my 1st comment (pls see attachment). It was all about USA and Venezuela and your comment that qte/unqte "if US decides to neutralize them and their operators. It will be over quickly and fiercly". I just reminded you that it didn't happen that "quickly and fiercly", for instance, in Afghanistan. Neither did it happen well for the US in Vietnam. 60,000 dead american soldiers and millions of lost lives of innocent people in Vietnam and Laos. Despite the U.S. had all the "economic ability to stay" in Vietnam for longer, she finally realized that she cannot simply win that war, same way as Russians will realize it a decade or so later in Afghanistan. And yes, by that moment USSR didn't quite have enough "economic ability to stay". Here I totally agree with you. 

So, I'm afraid it wasn't me who decided to bring Russia issue into the discussion about the U.S. and Venezuela. But as long as she is brought, I can say that of course Russia has her own interests in Venezuela, her Rosneft investments, her fleet of commercial tankers that was fixed years ago on long terms contracts. However, I do not think Russia will suffer a lot even if all that is lost.        

You brought Russia into the conversation with your first post mentioning Dr. Strangelove and Russian Missiles.  Whether you intended to directly or indirectly matters not.  You did.   

I extrapolated from your name a very strong possibility that you are Russian or from a former Eastern Bloc nation with sympathies for her.  If I’m wrong forgive me.

As you can see, I have sympathies for The US and do not hide them.  But, as earlier stated, do not deny some of our sorted past.  But, if indeed you would like to discuss who has done more good in the world, I’m your HuckleBerry.  Hell, I’d win that argument with the initial salvo just discussing murderous Stalin.

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

1 hour ago, TXPower said:

You brought Russia into the conversation with your first post mentioning Dr. Strangelove and Russian Missiles.  Whether you intended to directly or indirectly matters not.  You did.   

I extrapolated from your name a very strong possibility that you are Russian or from a former Eastern Bloc nation with sympathies for her.  If I’m wrong forgive me.

As you can see, I have sympathies for The US and do not hide them.  But, as earlier stated, do not deny some of our sorted past.  But, if indeed you would like to discuss who has done more good in the world, I’m your HuckleBerry.  Hell, I’d win that argument with the initial salvo just discussing murderous Stalin.

Yes, you guessed it right - I'm Russian and, like you, I do not hide sympathies for my country.

You say you do "not deny some of" your "sorted past". I'm sorry but I believe it is erroneous on your behalf to call it a "past". It is very much a "present" that is happening right before our eyes. An american "exceptionalism" still good at making wars all over the world that never seem to come to an end. Since WWII there were Korea, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Grenada, Panama, Iraq1, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq2, Somalia, Libya, Syria, Iraq3, Yemen. Some studies confirm that US has killed more than 20 million people in 37 “victim nations” since WWII. That makes 1/3 of all the number of dead in WWII. Hence I do not think I'm there to discuss "who has done more good in the world", as the title "Good guy"won't be won by the United States for sure. And I didn't even touch the subject of tens of millions of exterminated native Americans. But that one is the past, I agree. As to the initial salvo about "murderous" Stalin, that salvo won't be won that easy, I'm afraid: without that "murderous Stalin" and the Soviets the Europe would be speaking German today. And something tells me that the United States too, since the 1st atomic bomb would have carried "made in Germany" logo. Not "made in U.S."

Anyway, as I said I just don't want the U.S. to start another war where millions of people could die just because the US this time feels she will be far better manager for the biggest oil reserves in the world, than Maduro and his government.  Whatever bad he is, let the people of his country to decide and stop pretending the US care about those poor people, not about their oil.  

[Zhong Lu + 845]

In Venezuela, millions already have died because of a Russian-supported Maduro.  

And Russia loves fighting wars, too.  Just look at Georgia and Chechnya and Ukraine and Syria.  The only reason Russia doesn't fight as many wars as America is because Russia's economy is always cruddy.  

Both US and Russia are warmongers.  If there's one big country that hasn't started a war in the last 40 years, it's China.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[TXPower + 643]

42 minutes ago, Maxim Androsov said:

Yes, you guessed it right - I'm Russian and, like you, I do not hide sympathies for my country.

You say you do "not deny some of" your "sorted past". I'm sorry but I believe it is erroneous on your behalf to call it a "past". It is very much a "present" that is happening right before our eyes. An american "exceptionalism" still good at making wars all over the world that never seem to come to an end. Since WWII there were Korea, Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Grenada, Panama, Iraq1, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq2, Somalia, Libya, Syria, Iraq3, Yemen. Some studies confirm that US has killed more than 20 million people in 37 “victim nations” since WWII. That makes 1/3 of all the number of dead in WWII. Hence I do not think I'm there to discuss "who has done more good in the world", as the title "Good guy"won't be won by the United States for sure. And I didn't even touch the subject of tens of millions of exterminated native Americans. But that one is the past, I agree. As to the initial salvo about "murderous" Stalin, that salvo won't be won that easy, I'm afraid: without that "murderous Stalin" and the Soviets the Europe would be speaking German today. And something tells me that the United States too, since the 1st atomic bomb would have carried "made in Germany" logo. Not "made in U.S."

Anyway, as I said I just don't want the U.S. to start another war where millions of people could die just because the US this time feels she will be far better manager for the biggest oil reserves in the world, than Maduro and his government.  Whatever bad he is, let the people of his country to decide and stop pretending the US care about those poor people, not about their oil.  

Delusions about the true Russia.  Pointing to others bad behavior thinking it bolsters Russia’s position.  It does not.  Especially since I have repeatedly conceded that the US has our own historical sin.  You submit we are currently on the same path as if Russia isn’t.  Seriously?  Um, Syria.  Own that.   It’s honorable to do so and decorum demands it.  We aren’t the only death dealers.

The agreed upon conservative estimate by historians as to the number of Russians Stalin killed is 20 million.  Interesting that’s the supposed number you used referring to the those killed by the US in “victim nations”.  We haven’t even begun to discuss other places and people’s killed by Russians or the support of Russia.  Suffice it to say, the US and Russia have sorted pasts.

To bring it round full circle.  Right now it’s Russia taking a war-like stance with as you pointed out, the installment of their missiles in Venezuela.  Perhaps you believe Russia is doing so for altruistic reasons.

If you feel as strongly as you let on here in this forum about nations staying out of Venezuela’s business and letting Venezuelan’s decide for themselves, I recommend you begin immediately protesting Russia’s presence there now and all movement of military assets into that country.  Do it in Red-Square.    

For clarity sake, I hope my country does not enter the fray in Venezuela for all the reasons you list plus some.

The a-bomb marked made in Germany?  Perhaps.  It could have just as easily been marked made in Russia.  But it wasn’t.  I seem to remember the Russian Space Program getting a boost from German scientists as well.  As an aside, I’m glad Europe and Russia weakened the Germans enough for the US to arrive late and help deliver the death blow.  I don’t know any Russians so I’ll say it to you.  Thank you.  I’d be remiss however if I didn’t point out, Hitler was Europe’s problem and for a good while the US was trying to do what you keep suggesting we ought to do in Venezuela, stay out of other countries affairs.  Can’t have it both ways.

 

[TXPower + 643]

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

In Venezuela, millions already have died because of a Russian-supported Maduro.  

And Russia loves fighting wars, too.  Just look at Georgia and Chechnya and Ukraine and Syria.  The only reason Russia doesn't fight as many wars as America is because Russia's economy is always cruddy.  

Both US and Russia are warmongers.  If there's one big country that hasn't started a war in the last 40 years, it's China.  

All true.  But stay tuned, she’s starting to project her power overtly now, primarily in her theatre of the world.  None of her neighbors can or dare to stand against her, not even the Japanese.  But once she has a real blue-water navy, that will change.  She has a 100 year plan of dominance and try as she might and patient as she is, subtlety won’t conquer the world.

Edited February 22, 2019 by TXPower
Clarity