Tesla Launches Faster Third Generation Supercharger

[PE Scott + 563]

2 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

A 220V outlet:  Home Depot sells 200A circuit breakers for these, but many homes can't handle that.  Let's assume the vast majority of homes can handle a 50A, 220V circuit breaker in the existing main panel.  (215V)*(50A)*(.8) = 8.6kW.  (8.6kW)*(8 hours)*(3 miles/kWh) = 206 miles/day.  You could run a delivery business, and this would still meet your needs.

I mostly agree with this and I don't meant to be picky, but.....

It's cold outside where I live now and I've been enjoying a longer commute at 80+ mph a good portion of the way. My average kwh/100 mi has climbed to ~39 kwh/100mi. So that's about 2.6 mile/kwh. Admittedly the jaguar is not the most efficient EV and I'm not the most efficient driver, but that's real world. I doubt a delivery vehicle is more efficient than the jaguar is most settings.

Secondly, as far as I know most onboard car chargers are limited to around 7.7kwh. So, your limited there as opposed to at the wall. This will probably change with time, but I have a 40 amp outlet and a 32 amp wall charger that meets or exceeds the rate at which the onboard charger will allow.

 

Still, that's just splitting hairs. I agree with you for in town stuff as long as you're not relying on it for long distance operations.

Edited December 4, 2019 by PE Scott

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

21 hours ago, PE Scott said:

I mostly agree with this and I don't meant to be picky, but.....

It's cold outside where I live now and I've been enjoying a longer commute at 80+ mph a good portion of the way. My average kwh/100 mi has climbed to ~39 kwh/100mi. So that's about 2.6 mile/kwh. Admittedly the jaguar is not the most efficient EV and I'm not the most efficient driver, but that's real world. I doubt a delivery vehicle is more efficient than the jaguar is most settings.

Secondly, as far as I know most onboard car chargers are limited to around 7.7kwh. So, your limited there as opposed to at the wall. This will probably change with time, but I have a 40 amp outlet and a 32 amp wall charger that meets or exceeds the rate at which the onboard charger will allow.

 

Still, that's just splitting hairs. I agree with you for in town stuff as long as you're not relying on it for long distance operations.

Fair enough.  My assumptions could be adjusted a bit.  I will note, however, that everything I listed was conservative.  E.g. I only allowed 8 hours of charging when 10-14 is more likely.

Why don't think think EVs will work for long-distance?

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 12/4/2019 at 1:38 PM, PE Scott said:

I mostly agree with this and I don't meant to be picky, but.....

It's cold outside where I live now and I've been enjoying a longer commute at 80+ mph a good portion of the way. My average kwh/100 mi has climbed to ~39 kwh/100mi. So that's about 2.6 mile/kwh. Admittedly the jaguar is not the most efficient EV and I'm not the most efficient driver, but that's real world. I doubt a delivery vehicle is more efficient than the jaguar is most settings.

Secondly, as far as I know most onboard car chargers are limited to around 7.7kwh. So, your limited there as opposed to at the wall. This will probably change with time, but I have a 40 amp outlet and a 32 amp wall charger that meets or exceeds the rate at which the onboard charger will allow.

 

Still, that's just splitting hairs. I agree with you for in town stuff as long as you're not relying on it for long distance operations.

I'm sure you know aerodynamic drag grows algebraically with speed.  Those last 10mph really kill your millage.

[PE Scott + 563]

2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm sure you know aerodynamic drag grows algebraically with speed.  Those last 10mph really kill your millage.

Hence the line immediately after about not being the most efficient driver.....and the part about that being real world.....as opposed to theoretically. 

[PE Scott + 563]

6 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Fair enough.  My assumptions could be adjusted a bit.  I will note, however, that everything I listed was conservative.  E.g. I only allowed 8 hours of charging when 10-14 is more likely.

Why don't think think EVs will work for long-distance?

In my experience it's too much of a hassle currently to travel long distances compared to driving the same trip in my Focus. The gas mileage on the focus and the relatively inexpensive gasoline where I live make it both more cost effective and substantially faster to travel long distances in the Focus. If I had something with a range in the realm of 500 miles (like the new Rivian coming out) and that could charge a substantial portion of that battery in half an hour or less, to provide let's say ~350 miles range, the long distance thing would be less of an issue and charging availability/infrastructure would play a bigger role. The current electrify america stuff will take care of a lot of that. That rivian or the tesla with that kind of range is going to set you back some serious $$ though imo. 

I suppose if you allow for someone like Amazon to come in and design a truck specifically for their cross country needs and the infrastructure to power it, it could work. What I maybe should have said is I don't see that kind of technology and infrastructure available today, available for commercial purchase, and ready to be manufactured in mass. I should be clear that I think all of this is achievable though. I think it will just take a lot of development before its practical. I'll leave someone else to argue the economics of it.

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 12/5/2019 at 6:07 PM, PE Scott said:

In my experience it's too much of a hassle currently to travel long distances compared to driving the same trip in my Focus. The gas mileage on the focus and the relatively inexpensive gasoline where I live make it both more cost effective and substantially faster to travel long distances in the Focus. If I had something with a range in the realm of 500 miles (like the new Rivian coming out) and that could charge a substantial portion of that battery in half an hour or less, to provide let's say ~350 miles range, the long distance thing would be less of an issue and charging availability/infrastructure would play a bigger role. The current electrify america stuff will take care of a lot of that. That rivian or the tesla with that kind of range is going to set you back some serious $$ though imo. 

I suppose if you allow for someone like Amazon to come in and design a truck specifically for their cross country needs and the infrastructure to power it, it could work. What I maybe should have said is I don't see that kind of technology and infrastructure available today, available for commercial purchase, and ready to be manufactured in mass. I should be clear that I think all of this is achievable though. I think it will just take a lot of development before its practical. I'll leave someone else to argue the economics of it.

That sounds reasonable.  I would only add that there are substantial economical niche cases for the EVs produced today, and EV technology is advancing rapidly.  I suspect that as specific EV markets are saturated with available EVs, new EVs will open up additional markets.  I expect the net effect to be EV sales limited by battery production capacity - which itself will expand rapidly. 

In short, I think the denizens of 2025 will look back on 2019 and wonder why we ever questioned EVs. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by BenFranklin'sSpectacles
Wrote "models" instead of "markets".

[Refman + 207]

Many families in the US have more than one car. I suspect that many will switch one vehicle to an EV in the next 5 years, and have the ICE as backup for extended road trips. With EV's increasingly being marketed with 200+ miles of range and some above the 250 and 300 mile mark, I suspect that range anxiety will quickly fade. 

If you'd have asked me 10 years ago if EV's would ever be successful, I would probably have laughed at the question. Now I'm a firm believer that they will take over, the only question being is how quickly the switch over will happen.

[PE Scott + 563]

9 hours ago, Refman said:

If you'd have asked me 10 years ago if EV's would ever be successful, I would probably have laughed at the question. Now I'm a firm believer that they will take over, the only question being is how quickly the switch over will happen.

I'm right there with you. I didnt think it would happen on lithium technology anyway. 

I'm not sure yet if they'll take over or not. Personally, as a believer and endorser of EV technology, I think I'll always own at least one gas car.....likely a sports car like the new corvette. For the foreseeable future, I'll be driving an ICE truck as I work out in the sticks a lot where even the longest range EV's don't have the supporting infrastructure to be practical. Add a trailer and a lot of idle time to the equation and things are only complicated further. I think think the tuck and SUV market will be a difficult market for EV's to dominate in places like the U.S. Midwest/Southwest that are extremely spread out.

Give it enough time though, and you're probably right. I have to admit that an EV drivetrain has a ton of advantages. Battery technology just needs to advance a tad further and be less expensive. I see no reason why it's impossible that battery technology be made available in the future for a small fraction of the current price with far greater energy density.

[Refman + 207]

While several manufacturers have EV pickups in development, I think trucks will probably benefit from hybrid or plug-in technology in the mean time. A PHEV pickup could give you 30-50 miles all electric range which would be perfect for commuting, yet still have the ICE for extended trips. Such a setup[ could easily cut gas use by 75% or more, depending on how many long trips you do.

[PE Scott + 563]

7 hours ago, Refman said:

While several manufacturers have EV pickups in development, I think trucks will probably benefit from hybrid or plug-in technology in the mean time. A PHEV pickup could give you 30-50 miles all electric range which would be perfect for commuting, yet still have the ICE for extended trips. Such a setup[ could easily cut gas use by 75% or more, depending on how many long trips you do.

100% I'll buy a hybrid Raptor the first year its released. All though, if they make a V8 model......I might have to get it.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

“ That means users will charge at least (1.8kW)*(8 hours)*(3miles/kWh) = 43.2 miles/day.”

I guess that as long as you are happy and confident with 43.2 miles per day, you are good to go.

If you do not happen to live in an urban setting, 43.2 miles goes by in a heatbeat.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 hours ago, Refman said:

While several manufacturers have EV pickups in development, I think trucks will probably benefit from hybrid or plug-in technology in the mean time. A PHEV pickup could give you 30-50 miles all electric range which would be perfect for commuting, yet still have the ICE for extended trips. Such a setup[ could easily cut gas use by 75% or more, depending on how many long trips you do.

I don’t believe that most perspective truck buyers are into trucks for a commuting vehicle...

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

45 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

“ That means users will charge at least (1.8kW)*(8 hours)*(3miles/kWh) = 43.2 miles/day.”

I guess that as long as you are happy and confident with 43.2 miles per day, you are good to go.

If you do not happen to live in an urban setting, 43.2 miles goes by in a heatbeat.

Douglas a plug in hybrid sounds more up your street, best of both worlds and seriously fast when you combine both motors at the same time

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

43 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas a plug in hybrid sounds more up your street, best of both worlds and seriously fast when you combine both motors at the same time

No.....

I am an avowed gearhead/petrolhead, give me a high torque, internal combustion engine (bike or car) and I’m happy.

After decades of drilling for oil, I think it is incumbent on me to use as much oil based fuel as possible, as quickly as possible.

Don’t tell Greta!!!😂

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

No.....

I am an avowed gearhead/petrolhead, give me a high torque, internal combustion engine (bike or car) and I’m happy.

After decades of drilling for oil, I think it is incumbent on me to use as much oil based fuel as possible, as quickly as possible.

Don’t tell Greta!!!😂

Douglas with a hybrid you can have these and an electric motor so it goes even faster and still sounds just as cool!

You can emit as much Co2 as you want pal 😉

[PE Scott + 563]

7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I don’t believe that most perspective truck buyers are into trucks for a commuting vehicle...

I don't care at all about the short commutes or battery range in a hybrid truck, but I wouldn't be opposed to a little longer range, added torque, and the elimination of a transmission. All together, I think it could prove to be more reliable and quite useful on a job site if it can be used as a backup generator. 

I'm with you though, I want that 5.0 liter V8 raptor. I also really want one of those new mid-engined corvettes. As the saying goes, theres no replacement for displacement.

[PE Scott + 563]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

After decades of drilling for oil, I think it is incumbent on me to use as much oil based fuel as possible, as quickly as possible

Let me be the first to thank you, sir, for your steadfast and consistent support of the fossil fuel industry! 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Okay guys, was just on another site that brought up something which I had not thought about.

The post was discussing a recent three hour traffic jam, in the mountains in Canada, during a blizzard (traffic accident, avalanche...can’t remember the cause) and how long these EV’s could still function while in stop and go traffic in these conditions while running the heater full tilt.

I grew up in Colorado and this occurs more often than you think. On the I-70 corridor to all the ski areas this is a common occurrence on the way back to Denver after a days skiing.

Does anyone have any info on an EV in a situation like this?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas with a hybrid you can have these and an electric motor so it goes even faster and still sounds just as cool!

You can emit as much Co2 as you want pal 😉

And I will!!!

[PE Scott + 563]

3 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Does anyone have any info on an EV in a situation like this?

I'll go skiing sometime this year and take my EV up to Durango or Pagosa. I'll make sure to keep track of that sort of thing and see how it fared. That's a good question. I wont lie, it makes me a little nervous. I'll be sure to take warm clothes, lol.

Edit: So far this winter I have seen somewhat decreased range. I've learned of a new app to help keep track of actual kwh usage that should help me make more accurate comparisons moving forward. On the downside, the battery is being replaced currently I'm not sure how different it will be from the previous battery or if it will yield different range results and such.

Edited December 20, 2019 by PE Scott

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Douglas with a hybrid you can have these and an electric motor so it goes even faster and still sounds just as cool!

You can emit as much Co2 as you want pal 😉

And I will!!!

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 minutes ago, PE Scott said:

I'll go skiing sometime this year and take my EV up to Durango or Pagosa. I'll make sure to keep track of that sort of thing and see how it fared. That's a good question. I wont lie, it makes me a little nervous. I'll be sure to take warm clothes, lol.

I just thought it was an interesting concern.

Wish that I was headed to Durango or Pagosa!!! After 16 years in Asia I miss Colorado (although it seems to be Californicated these days).

I’ll be back to visit Steamboat next May/June inshallah!!!!

[Rob Plant + 2,616]

6 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay guys, was just on another site that brought up something which I had not thought about.

The post was discussing a recent three hour traffic jam, in the mountains in Canada, during a blizzard (traffic accident, avalanche...can’t remember the cause) and how long these EV’s could still function while in stop and go traffic in these conditions while running the heater full tilt.

I grew up in Colorado and this occurs more often than you think. On the I-70 corridor to all the ski areas this is a common occurrence on the way back to Denver after a days skiing.

Does anyone have any info on an EV in a situation like this?

This is a very good point

I have a hybrid and would not consider a pure EV for this reason and just pure practicality.

I regularly have to drive 200-250 miles to visit clients and I havent the time (or the patience) to stop and re-charge my car. I dont drive economically or indeed want to as I like driving fast where it is safe to do so.

I have found having the heater/aircon and having heated seats on drains that battery pretty fast and drastically reduces the mileage available, so I would presume in Colorado you are going to freeze to death if you get stuck after a couple of hours.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay guys, was just on another site that brought up something which I had not thought about.

The post was discussing a recent three hour traffic jam, in the mountains in Canada, during a blizzard (traffic accident, avalanche...can’t remember the cause) and how long these EV’s could still function while in stop and go traffic in these conditions while running the heater full tilt.

I grew up in Colorado and this occurs more often than you think. On the I-70 corridor to all the ski areas this is a common occurrence on the way back to Denver after a days skiing.

Does anyone have any info on an EV in a situation like this?

That's a possible to probable problem.  However, ICE cars have plenty of problems in both summer and winter.

If you drive up a mountain too fast in the summer with your air conditioning on your car will boil over (won't happen with a EV).

Even starting a ICE is difficult in the winter when it's seriously cold.  Some people in the states don't even know what a block heater is as they don't come standard on cars in the south. So plug in your car all night -and waste huge amount of electricity- and it doesn't even charge the battery, which by the the way also fails much quicker in cold climates.

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

4 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

That's a possible to probable problem.  However, ICE cars have plenty of problems in both summer and winter.

If you drive up a mountain too fast in the summer with your air conditioning on your car will boil over (won't happen with a EV).

Even starting a ICE is difficult in the winter when it's seriously cold.  Some people in the states don't even know what a block heater is as they don't come standard on cars in the south. So plug in your car all night -and waste huge amount of electricity- and it doesn't even charge the battery, which by the the way also fails much quicker in cold climates.

 

Not quite accurate. If your ICE vehicle is in good working order, why would your vehicle overheat even if you are driving uphill with your A/C on? The term ‘too fast’ is rather subjective. ICE vehicles were designed and constructed NOT to boil over in these conditions.

Where do you get the idea that an ICE vehicle is hard to start in cold weather? Granted, in VERY cold weather, where the oil would start to solidify or gel, you need a block heater.

I grew up in Colorado, got my license there and drove there for 10 years straight without requiring a block heater or having my radiator boil over.

I acknowledge the points you are alluding to...just keep it real.