Dutch Populists Shock the EU with Election Victory

[shadowkin + 584]

Dutch populists won the most votes in elections last Thursday.  They will hold the largest number of seats in the Senate along with the ruling party of the Prime Minister. The government will now have to get outside support for Senate approval of laws passed by parliament.

The Forum for Democracy party is only 3 years old and their victory came on the heels of the latest Muslim terror attack on Monday in Utrecht when a Turk killed 3 people.

What do they believe? Here is their leader Thierry Baudet.

“We stand here in the rubble of what was once the most beautiful civilization.

“We won because the country needs us. We are being destroyed by the people who are supposed to be protecting us.

“Successive Rutte governments have left our borders wide open, letting in hundreds of thousands of people with cultures completely different to ours.

“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing.

Sound familiar?

[Meredith Poor + 883]

2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing.

For every person killed by an Islamic extremist, hundreds of thousands are cared for by Muslim nurses, doctors, medical technicians, and clinic staff. This is particularly true in the US, where American hospitals have recruited vigorously in various parts of East Africa, India, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

Compare that complaint to the president of Hungary, who is complaining that all the talented young people are leaving. Look up the demographic statistics of Poland, Lithuania (and the other Baltic states), Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, and Bulgaria (and the other Balkan states). Even the population of Germany is shrinking in absolute numbers.

"“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing." Kim Jong Un and Fidel Castro would heartily agree with these sentiments, or at least put them into practice.

[shadowkin + 584]

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

For every person killed by an Islamic extremist, hundreds of thousands are cared for by Muslim nurses, doctors, medical technicians, and clinic staff. This is particularly true in the US

Do you have any data to support this? I haven't even bothered to look and I can tell it's false, particularly in the US. About 400,000 killed in Syria by all flavors of Islamic terrorists. So Muslims treated (conservatively) 400,000 x 200,000 = 80 billion people? Ok. That's more than 10x the Earth's population.

Regardless it's a fallacious argument.

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

Look up the demographic statistics of Poland, Lithuania (and the other Baltic states), Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, and Bulgaria (and the other Balkan states). Even the population of Germany is shrinking in absolute numbers.

So these countries should import Muslims so they can turn Europe into the ME. You underestimate automation as well. You don't need as many people in factories to make things. This will only increase. Clerical work being automated as well. Same arguments used by globalists to destroy sovereign nations. Didn't seem to work out so well for UK and their water situation did it.

 

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing." Kim Jong Un and

So you went from being ideological opposed to open borders and the euro is tantamount to being Kim Jong Un.

I think you've outed yourself as a Paki here with your ridiculous arguments.

[Meredith Poor + 883]

2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

Do you have any data to support this? I haven't even bothered to look and I can tell it's false, particularly in the US. About 400,000 killed in Syria by all flavors of Islamic terrorists. So Muslims treated (conservatively) 400,000 x 200,000 = 80 billion people? Ok. That's more than 10x the Earth's population.

Perhaps I should have qualified this to mean Western countries with Muslim immigrants. The US definitely recruits medical providers from various Muslim countries. How that works in Europe I can't speculate.

[Meredith Poor + 883]

2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

So you went from being ideological opposed to open borders and the euro is tantamount to being Kim Jong Un.

I think you've outed yourself as a Paki here with your ridiculous arguments.

I'm not sure what you intended from the first of the two above sentences. In any case, North Korea and Cuba are 'hermit states' - they aren't open to free trade, immigration (not that anyone would immigrate in any case), or 'foreign influences'. There are political movements that want to close borders and 'preserve cultural heritage'. Then there are a few countries that actually do it. Japan is another example.

[Meredith Poor + 883]

3 hours ago, shadowkin said:

So these countries should import Muslims so they can turn Europe into the ME. You underestimate automation as well. You don't need as many people in factories to make things. This will only increase. Clerical work being automated as well. Same arguments used by globalists to destroy sovereign nations. Didn't seem to work out so well for UK and their water situation did it.

It's not what countries 'should do', it's what happens whether they like it or not.

One of the results of building Crossrail in London was digging up various cemeteries from the 17th century. London, even at that time, had a vast collection of immigrants, including many from Africa and practically every country in the Mediterranean. Even Roman graveyards in Londinium had evidence of North Africans (of course, this predated Islam, and Christianity for that matter).

Automation is great for making widgets. So far it isn't working out for medical services, elder care, food service, residential maintenance, etc. As far as the 'water situation' goes, I'm not aware of the context of that assertion.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

How exactly was this Dutch election 'shocking'  in any way?

[shadowkin + 584]

2 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Perhaps I should have qualified this to mean Western countries with Muslim immigrants. The US definitely recruits medical providers from various Muslim countries.

Yes US recruits Muslim medical professionals but not in the numbers you're suggesting. 

This argument is still fallacious. 3000 killed on 9/11. 3k x 200k = 600 million treated (yeah they weren’t ‘immigrants’ but this would have made no difference). That’s about 2/3 of the combined population of the US and EU. I don’t think so.

Besides I don’t think this is a fruitful line of argument for you. In the US I would assert we recruit far more Indian and Filipino nurses than any Muslim medical professionals yet there has never been one, that I’m aware of, terror attack by them let alone one that is attributable to religious/political reasons.

The whole “well we saved more lives than we took” argument is unpersuasive. You don’t really want to get into an argument as to who did more for humanity anyway.

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

I'm not sure what you intended from the first of the two above sentences. In any case, North Korea and Cuba are 'hermit states' - they aren't open to free trade, immigration (not that anyone would immigrate in any case), or 'foreign influences'. There are political movements that want to close borders and 'preserve cultural heritage'. Then there are a few countries that actually do it. Japan is another example.

The sentence speaks for itself. You are equating someone who advocates control of their country’s border with Kim Jong Un. You actually made my point with the Japan example. Japan controls their borders and who can reside in their country and who can call themselves a Japanese citizen but visiting their country for tourism or trade purposes is not an issue unless you have a criminal record. Japan very much wants to preserve cultural heritage. South Korea would be another example.

They are strict about this but they are by no means a hermit nation, isolated from the world that wants to 'close their borders'. Controlling your borders or currency is not synonymous with being a totalitarian regime.

US cultural influence in Cuba is greater than you think.

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

London, even at that time, had a vast collection of immigrants,

Vast? 

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

Even Roman graveyards in Londinium had evidence of North Africans (of course, this predated Islam, and Christianity for that matter).

Yeah they were called slaves. Yes it did predate Islam which is the motivator for terrorism in Europe today.

 

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

Automation is great for making widgets. So far it isn't working out for medical services, elder care, food service, residential maintenance,

Incorrect. It's working for the clerical aspect of medical services. It's creeping in to doctor consultations and surgery itself. I'll agree it doesn't work well with elder care. Food service? Well many startups deliver food nowadays. Residential maintenance? Used to be kids in the US would mow lawns and such. I did myself. Now it seems with HOAs it's contracted out to migrants.

There is no reason to limit this discussion to migrants to the West either. Muslims citizens/subjects have done far more damage to non-Western nations for far longer. One cannot only look at deaths either as a measure of this. A nation like Somalia, for example, simply has no chance at economically developing while it is paralyzed by a Muslim insurgency.

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

3 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

How exactly was this Dutch election 'shocking'  in any way?

I was just coming to ask the same thing. I would have expected the EU to be beyond the easy shockability of a Victorian damsel in distress. it's a trend and it's growing. Also, it was long time coming.

2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

Controlling your borders or currency is not synonymous with being a totalitarian regime.

And yet the dominant political narrative wants us to believe it is. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

15 hours ago, shadowkin said:

Controlling your borders or currency is not synonymous with being a totalitarian regime.

Sure it is, when the government doing the controlling is preventing you from leaving, or in the alternative "taxes" the money you are carrying when you attempt to leave.  A good example of that is the USA, which has its "Homeland Security" people refuse to let you leave the country, even temporarily, even for vacation, without demanding you produce your cash for "inspection,"  where it is either taxed or confiscated by those border guards.  The same "Security" people will grab you if you attempt to walk out of the USA on foot, and "inspect" you and "run" you through their computer data-bases to see if they can hold onto you for some other excuse.  The "Border Patrol" stations men full-time at  Roxham Road, and I invite you to view the wretched souls that are fleeing the USA for Canada, to surrender to the RCMP as refugees - from Donald Trump and what has rapidly become the US Police State.  

I invite you to contrast the statements made by the Border Patrol Chief and the RCMP Chief, both interviewed spontaneously and live by TV camera crews as Roxham Road,New York State:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuhjRSWsPwY .  The US has become a society of Official Thugs, albeit with a certain slow-motion implementation that escapes the attention of the majority.  "If you are in the Border area, we will stop you and question you."  Who are these guys to stop and question anybody leaving? 

The Castro regime will prevent you from leaving Cuba without a "Permiso de Salida," a special exit visa that they only issue after interrogating you- even if you arrive as a tourist.  Uncle Adolf did the same thing with Europe's Jews, taxing them 97% of their wealth if they sought to leave.  No money to turn over?  You don't get to leave, especially for Switzerland.  One-way train ticket to the East for you, pal. Just lovely.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

15 hours ago, shadowkin said:

Dutch populists won the most votes in elections last Thursday.  They will hold the largest number of seats in the Senate along with the ruling party of the Prime Minister. The government will now have to get outside support for Senate approval of laws passed by parliament.

The Forum for Democracy party is only 3 years old and their victory came on the heels of the latest Muslim terror attack on Monday in Utrecht when a Turk killed 3 people.

What do they believe? Here is their leader Thierry Baudet.

“We stand here in the rubble of what was once the most beautiful civilization.

“We won because the country needs us. We are being destroyed by the people who are supposed to be protecting us.

“Successive Rutte governments have left our borders wide open, letting in hundreds of thousands of people with cultures completely different to ours.

“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing.

Sound familiar?

FVD got less than 15 % of the votes. Do you understand the different multi-party systems in Europe; how they function and how policy is made?

I have said it before and will say it again - FVP (and PVV; Geert Wilders' party) and all their counter are NOT the majority. They are a BIG minority that needs to be listened to. Moderation. 

[shadowkin + 584]

5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

FVD got less than 15 % of the votes. Do you understand the different multi-party systems in Europe; how they function and how policy is made?

I have said it before and will say it again - FVP (and PVV; Geert Wilders' party) and all their counter are NOT the majority. They are a BIG minority that needs to be listened to. Moderation. 

Does it matter? Do you understand they won the most seats? End of story. As I said in another post you pretend to be interested in moderation and consensus now because you're losing.
 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

15 minutes ago, shadowkin said:

Does it matter? Do you understand they won the most seats? End of story. As I said in another post you pretend to be interested in moderation and consensus now because you're losing.
 

They don't have the majority. So yes, it matters. The majority does not need FVP to make policy. The majority would be smart to listen, so that they don't lose. But they do not need the minority to make policy. 

You are mocking a system without understanding how it functions.  

[shadowkin + 584]

52 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

They don't have the majority. So yes, it matters.

You miss the point. You're quick to point out they won less than 15% of the vote; yet they still managed to capture the most seats. So no, less than 15% doesn't matter. This is their system and they won. Doesn't say much for the opposition. The government no longer has the majority either.

 

53 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

The majority would be smart to listen, so that they don't lose. But they do not need the minority to make policy. 

You are mocking a system without understanding how it functions.  

They can and how did that work out for them in this election. You misunderstand the nature of political parties who have a tendency to adopt the policies of parties to whom they lose so that they don't end up losing power. You're making my point.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 minute ago, shadowkin said:

You miss the point. You're quick to point out they won less than 15% of the vote; yet they still managed to capture the most seats. So no, less than 15% doesn't matter. This is their system and they won. Doesn't say much for the opposition. The government no longer has the majority either.

Pls take 5 minutes to study how multi party system functions. Parties come together in a coalition. 

Also - do you know what the election was on and what function that branch of democrazy has in Dutch legislation? It doesn't seem like you do. 

[shadowkin + 584]

3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Pls take 5 minutes to study how multi party system functions. Parties come together in a coalition. 

Also - do you know what the election was on and what function that branch of democrazy has in Dutch legislation? It doesn't seem like you do. 

You fundamentally misunderstand how politicians and political parties work irrespective of whether it's a winner take all system or even a system like China's. An extreme example would be that the Nazis never won a majority in parliament (This is in no way an endorsement of Nazism). We all saw how that ended. 

It's ok you can try to downplay this defeat, change the subject, and argue the Senate is irrelevant. 

It's similar to your views on populists trending to win 30% of EU parliament seats. You tried to downplay it until someone called you on it. The fact is large minorities can and do influence policy whether or not they have actual levers of power. They even influence the political discussion hence your calls for listening to them. This works both ways by the way.

I don't think you grasp either what is occurring worldwide in terms of political trends. This isn't the end. This is the beginning.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 3/24/2019 at 6:50 PM, Meredith Poor said:

For every person killed by an Islamic extremist, hundreds of thousands are cared for by Muslim nurses, doctors, medical technicians, and clinic staff. This is particularly true in the US, where American hospitals have recruited vigorously in various parts of East Africa, India, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

Compare that complaint to the president of Hungary, who is complaining that all the talented young people are leaving. Look up the demographic statistics of Poland, Lithuania (and the other Baltic states), Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, and Bulgaria (and the other Balkan states). Even the population of Germany is shrinking in absolute numbers.

"“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing." Kim Jong Un and Fidel Castro would heartily agree with these sentiments, or at least put them into practice.

Primarily because the working and middle classes have been economically sterilised by high tax rates and property price bubbles. 

Meanwhile we import on mass, people whose only real skill would be as an Uber driver - an occupation likely to be automated in a decade or two. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

11 hours ago, shadowkin said:

The fact is large minorities can and do influence policy whether or not they have actual levers of power. They even influence the political discussion hence your calls for listening to them. This works both ways by the way.

I never said it didn't. In fact I said this very proces is what gives moderation - even more so in a multi party system. 

 

11 hours ago, shadowkin said:

You fundamentally misunderstand how politicians and political parties work irrespective of whether it's a winner take all system or even a system like China's.

how do I misunderstand?

11 hours ago, shadowkin said:

It's ok you can try to downplay this defeat, change the subject, and argue the Senate is irrelevant. 

what I am trying to do is to bring realism to the "conversation". Your stance would be akin to me saying that because Dems have the house they control government. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:50 PM, Meredith Poor said:

For every person killed by an Islamic extremist, hundreds of thousands are cared for by Muslim nurses, doctors, medical technicians, and clinic staff. This is particularly true in the US, where American hospitals have recruited vigorously in various parts of East Africa, India, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

Compare that complaint to the president of Hungary, who is complaining that all the talented young people are leaving. Look up the demographic statistics of Poland, Lithuania (and the other Baltic states), Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, and Bulgaria (and the other Balkan states). Even the population of Germany is shrinking in absolute numbers.

"“I am ideologically against the EU, against the internal market, against the open borders, against the euro, against the whole thing." Kim Jong Un and Fidel Castro would heartily agree with these sentiments, or at least put them into practice.

Christians are now the most persecuted group in the world. Muslims, China, and communists are the biggest persecutors of Christians. 

Religious Persecution https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnCYHAYSmKztKhWYS-esLqlIw-b8RX9-pm_An5Yokh4/edit

Edited March 26, 2019 by ronwagn

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/24/2019 at 8:42 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

How exactly was this Dutch election 'shocking'  in any way?

I was thinking exactly the same thing. See Conservatism Around the World https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twQ_yBtl-FPwhXf2mYA7qvGj1D8yts8El0m8nObWxuU/edit

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:48 PM, Marina Schwarz said:

I was just coming to ask the same thing. I would have expected the EU to be beyond the easy shockability of a Victorian damsel in distress. it's a trend and it's growing. Also, it was long time coming.

And yet the dominant political narrative wants us to believe it is. 

The populist conservative trend seems to be continuously gaining in strength. In America, Britain, Brazil, Germany, France, Holland, Switzerland, Sweden etc. 

Conservatism Around the World https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twQ_yBtl-FPwhXf2mYA7qvGj1D8yts8El0m8nObWxuU/edit

[shadowkin + 584]

Ok I admit 'shock' is a little strong but I imagine for leftists in their alternate universe, echoed non-stop by the msm, it is still a shock to see it become reality.

[Meredith Poor + 883]

5 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Christians are now the most persecuted group in the world. Muslims, China, and communists are the biggest persecutors of Christians. 

Religious Persecution https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnCYHAYSmKztKhWYS-esLqlIw-b8RX9-pm_An5Yokh4/edit

By this time, the scale of persecution is so severe that any one group claiming to be 'biggest' is pretty academic. There are more slaves now than at any time in human history, simply because there are more humans now than at any previous point in human history. Some of this is due to the presumption on the part of some people that other people, or groups, are 'inferior' or 'subhuman' and are only good for.... (generally euphemisms for grunt work or living on the dole). Religious conflicts are as old as the written record, and people in power describing themselves are Christians have been major actors in killing and enslavement over the last 2000 years.

[shadowkin + 584]

4 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

and people in power describing themselves are Christians have been major actors in killing and enslavement over the last 2000 years.

It’s curious you want to single out Christians. If Muslims are being persecuted or killed it’s overwhelmingly by their own. I point out Syria once again as exhibit A.

The only place real slavery exists today is in the Arab Muslim world and North Korea. None in any Christian nations that I know. I’ll exclude human trafficking as these are done by criminal organizations who aren’t ‘people in power’ but here again many of these are non-Christians. You know this.

So, in order to indict Christians, you trot out the leftist argument that most people today are slaves to a system or a corporation (I gather this from your grunt work comment) because you know slavery, real slavery, where you are beaten or killed, has long ago been abolished in the West. 

It’s a joke to compare some office worker drone in the West with some African being sold like chattel in a market by a Muslim in North Africa. 

I don’t dispute Christian nations have in the past engaged in killing and enslavement. Same was true of Islam. Islam more so than Christianity was spread by the sword. Why no mention of that?

Edited March 27, 2019 by shadowkin

[Meredith Poor + 883]

7 hours ago, shadowkin said:

The only place real slavery exists today is in the Arab Muslim world and North Korea. None in any Christian nations that I know. I’ll exclude human trafficking as these are done by criminal organizations who aren’t ‘people in power’ but here again many of these are non-Christians. You know this.

So if an Asian woman has been recruited into a brothel in New York City this isn't 'slavery' because US government policy and law outlaws slavery. I'm not sure she would be too sympathetic with the distinction.

Governments in many parts of the world simply ignore forced labor. This includes tea workers in India, garment workers in Bangladesh, fishing deckhands in Thailand, etc. Whether the purported slavery is 'legal' or not is of little materiality to the person stuck in the situation.