Permafrost Melting Will Cost Us $70 Trillion

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

 

3 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Dude do your homework.

You need a weak acid and its conjugate base.  NaCl is not a buffer.

I can spoon feed this to you but you will just look more foolish than if you look it up yourself.

Child, you think the Only salt in the ocean is NaCl? Wherever did I say that? Oh, right, I didn't. The moron did. Now consider calcium carbonate. Will IT be considered a "conjugate" of carbonic acid? I'll wait right here while you run to uncle Google for an answer. Let me jump ahead, you'll pretend calcium carbonate is insoluble in ocean water. Want to go there? Really? When it's so easily disproven? This is first year "science",which likely is more than you've ever had. Better give up quick chum, you're at the adult's table now. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

49 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

 

Child, you think the Only salt in the ocean is NaCl? Wherever did I say that? Oh, right, I didn't. The moron did. Now consider calcium carbonate. Will IT be considered a "conjugate" of carbonic acid? I'll wait right here while you run to uncle Google for an answer. Let me jump ahead, you'll pretend calcium carbonate is insoluble in ocean water. Want to go there? Really? When it's so easily disproven? This is first year "science",which likely is more than you've ever had. Better give up quick chum, you're at the adult's table now. 

"NaCl has essentially no buffering capacity" is what I said - you argued against that - not other salts.

Of course there are many buffering systems in the ocean - essentially all are based off polyatomic ions, not Na, not Cl (NaCl is the vastly dominant salt in the ocean -and what everyone traditionally calls salt).  If your whole claim is that you now know their are other salts other than NaCl you are vastly amusing (see Tom - this place is great).

You didn't say phosphate, carbonate, acetate, ammonia, amino acids, or anything else that would let me know you had even a tiny clue.  Do you understand the difference between pH and Alkalinity?  Ever done a pH titration curve?

Ahh so fun!  I will chem throw down with you any day for amusement - I know my stuff.  Argue politics or something else. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

36 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

 

Child, you think the Only salt in the ocean is NaCl? Wherever did I say that? Oh, right, I didn't. The moron did. Now consider calcium carbonate. Will IT be considered a "conjugate" of carbonic acid? I'll wait right here while you run to uncle Google for an answer. Let me jump ahead, you'll pretend calcium carbonate is insoluble in ocean water. Want to go there? Really? When it's so easily disproven? This is first year "science",which likely is more than you've ever had. Better give up quick chum, you're at the adult's table now. 

There really is no reason to resort to personal attacks (Child, uncle google [user], first year science).  If you had taken chem at university you would know that this isn't first year stuff - at least in Canada - it's high school.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Ok I give up, this thread is getting too weird for me to follow.

Go ahead and argue away, just try to play nice with each other.  No name calling, and try not to poke each other's eyes out.  Running with scissors should be fine though, so long as the pointy parts are pointed at the ground.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

I rarely, if ever, personally attack anyone - I mock whole groups and ignorance.

I will fight ignorance just as much as you Tom.  I like that you are thick skinned and stand up for yourself - even if you are often wrong.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

6 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Woman Glues Her Breasts To The Ground In Protest Against Climate Change

I'm sure she feels like a valuable member of society who is Doing Something about Climate Change. Any info on the sort of glue she used? 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

"NaCl has essentially no buffering capacity" is what I said - you argued against that - not other salts.

Of course there are many buffering systems in the ocean - essentially all are based off polyatomic ions, not Na, not Cl (NaCl is the vastly dominant salt in the ocean -and what everyone traditionally calls salt).  If your whole claim is that you now know their are other salts other than NaCl you are vastly amusing (see Tom - this place is great).

You didn't say phosphate, carbonate, acetate, ammonia, amino acids, or anything else that would let me know you had even a tiny clue.  Do you understand the difference between pH and Alkalinity?  Ever done a pH titration curve?

Ahh so fun!  I will chem throw down with you any day for amusement - I know my stuff.  Argue politics or something else. 

I've done all that and more. You're the one who said sodium chloride, the most common salt. That told me nothing about you, you could be a 12 year old for all I know, hence the child and the pointing to a VERY basic website explanation. My rule of thumb is that people lie on the internet unless they're using their real names. I'm guessing moms didn't name you Enthalpic. 

Meantime you are hiding behind the skinniest blade of grass now that I've made my point, and you've thoroughly lost yours. Are you 12,15,20? I have no way to know. My point about buffering stands, period. I'll admit I let you grab enough rope to hang yourself, your kind never go down easily. Moving goalposts doesn't work against me either. You might be a fairly bright high schooler for all I know, but if I inspire you to work harder at your studies and get you to pursue STEM, then I'm happy. Acidification of the oceans? It's hogwash and I named one (of many that I know) reasons why it is. Your weak sauce snarky failure of a response notwithstanding. Sure you want to tangle with ME? 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

41 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I'm sure she feels like a valuable member of society who is Doing Something about Climate Change. Any info on the sort of glue she used? 

I hope it was cyanoacrylate

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

I rarely, if ever, personally attack anyone - I mock whole groups and ignorance.

I will fight ignorance just as much as you Tom.  I like that you are thick skinned and stand up for yourself - even if you are often wrong.

Dude, I'm mocking You. Not some group, but the big head who seems to be missing requisite marbles. Your skin is pretty thin if saying you need to run to uncle Google for help bothers you. Fess up, you're a junior in high school no? 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

9 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

I hope it was cyanoacrylate

That's cruel. But funny. And, sadly, it's not impossible. Are there any organic, oil-free glues out there? It's a serious question. I remember a glue made from, hmm, cow hooves and animal-derived gelatine or something... Not sure if there are any eco-glues now, though.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

11 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

I've done all that and more. You're the one who said sodium chloride, the most common salt. That told me nothing about you, you could be a 12 year old for all I know, hence the child and the pointing to a VERY basic website explanation. My rule of thumb is that people lie on the internet unless they're using their real names. I'm guessing moms didn't name you Enthalpic. 

Meantime you are hiding behind the skinniest blade of grass now that I've made my point, and you've thoroughly lost yours. Are you 12,15,20? I have no way to know. My point about buffering stands, period. I'll admit I let you grab enough rope to hang yourself, your kind never go down easily. Moving goalposts doesn't work against me either. You might be a fairly bright high schooler for all I know, but if I inspire you to work harder at your studies and get you to pursue STEM, then I'm happy. Acidification of the oceans? It's hogwash and I named one (of many that I know) reasons why it is. Your weak sauce snarky failure of a response notwithstanding. Sure you want to tangle with ME? 

My real name is in my profile.

Yes, easy internet prey for amusement - like a cat that doesn't immediately kill a mouse.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

That's cruel. But funny. And, sadly, it's not impossible. Are there any organic, oil-free glues out there? It's a serious question. I remember a glue made from, hmm, cow hooves and animal-derived gelatine or something... Not sure if there are any eco-glues now, though.

Of course, and yes some are made from animal products.  

Petro freaks try to forget that things like rubber traditionally came from plants... you can make many plastics, glues and chemicals from non-petro organic substances.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

That's good to hear. 

Plastics from organic substances? Aren't plastics by definition a hydrocarbon product?

P.S. Could you just tone down the name-calling. Thanks!

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

 

Plastics from organic substances? Aren't plastics by definition a hydrocarbon product?

P.S. Could you just tone down the name-calling. Thanks!

A polymer (often called plastic) is just a repeating unit of a monomer.  Plastic is a description of the way a material behaves, like flexible, or, conversely brittle.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

17 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

That's good to hear. 

Plastics from organic substances? Aren't plastics by definition a hydrocarbon product?

P.S. Could you just tone down the name-calling. Thanks!

I'm doing far less name calling than Ward.  Cellulose acetate polymers are common and are made essentially made from wood and vinegar.

You could easily make any plastic from sugar - it would just be more expensive.

Sugar -> ethanol -> ethylene -> polyethylene.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

Fascinating. I just did some googling and learned even apples produce ethylene, naturally. I guess then it's the "just more expensive" part that prevents us from having a fossil fuel-free world.

As far as name-calling goes, "child" and "freaks" are simply not in the same category of, well, names. If Ward calls you a freak I'll tell him off, I promise.

[specinho + 439]

 

On 4/29/2019 at 1:41 AM, specinho said:

May be Enthalpic is right........  NaCl is indeed not a buffer but a salt ......... The saltiness is measured by part per thousand........

On the other hand......... pH is measured by pH meter............. it depends on the mineral contents in the sea.... According to the internet the average pH of the sea is 8.1........ Therefore....... when carbon dioxide dissolves into water especially in colder zones the equation could be this:

 H₂O +  CO₂   --->   H₂CO₃     ---->   H⁺  +   HCO₃^-

^{It's acidic. Hence...... it does have the possibility to change the pH value of the sea......... probably in hundred years of course........}

 

On 4/29/2019 at 5:11 AM, Ward Smith said:

Dude, click on the link and edumacate yourself before you embarrass yourself further

 

On 4/29/2019 at 11:46 AM, Enthalpic said:

There really is no reason to resort to personal attacks (Child, uncle google [user], first year science).  If you had taken chem at university you would know that this isn't first year stuff - at least in Canada - it's high school.

Thanks for the link. Not sure if you have read it and understand it properly...... this high school chemistry of yours?? Here's some highlights for your reference:

p/s: by the way........ if you care to know............. that reference you used might not incline to encourage the understanding of the concept...... 

1.  buffer, a solution that resists dramatic change in pH (usually a weak acid or weak base solution)

2. this is from google search that you so despise of..............

The major ions in seawater are Na⁺, Mg²⁺, Ca²⁺, K⁺, Sr²⁺, Cl^-, SO₄^2- (sulfate), HCO₃^- (bicarbonate), Br^-, B(OH)₃ (boric acid), and F^-. Together, they account for almost all of the salt in seawater........ Most of the inorganic carbon in the ocean exists as bicarbonate (~88%), with the concentrations of carbonate ion and CO₂ comprising about 11% and 1%, respectively.

https://oceancolor.gsfc.nasa.gov/SeaWiFS/TEACHERS/CHEMISTRY/

3. here's a list of common strong and weak acids and bases

http://allaboutthebasesandacids.weebly.com/list-of-strong-and-weak-acids-and-bases.html

 

Question: what are the possible buffers from weak acid and/or base solutions in the sea?
a) HCO₃^- (bicarbonate) (88%)

b) pollutant NH3

c) HSO4-

d) HF (?)

Which one can neutralize newly added H+ or OH- if any? Is NaCl one of them?? ..........

(note: on the left are grey color donkeys....... on the right are brown color and discolorized greenish brown horses)

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

@specinho

I gather that English isn't your first language. Please reread what I wrote. I shouldn't have to explain it all again. Enthalpic jumped to an erroneous conclusion. You've followed him down the same rabbit hole. I won't be joining you there. Run this all through Google Translate to your native tongue if needed. Good day

[specinho + 439]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

@specinho

I gather that English isn't your first language. Please reread what I wrote. I shouldn't have to explain it all again. Enthalpic jumped to an erroneous conclusion. You've followed him down the same rabbit hole. I won't be joining you there. Run this all through Google Translate to your native tongue if needed. Good day

This is what you wrote:

On 4/29/2019 at 5:11 AM, Ward Smith said:

Dude, click on the link and edumacate yourself before you embarrass yourself further. 

The ocean is Basic, not acid as any litmus test will show you, and given it's salt content (a buffer), it's not going Acidic by any known process. 

 

I'm from the suburb....... So... what??.......

Here's the case:

Once upon a time........... a man went to a doctor asking for Castration......... The doctor was shocked. He would like to confirm what he heard:" Are you sure you want to cut it off?"

Patient:" Nonono........ I just want to cut the skin off............"

Doctor:" Aahhh.......... you mean Circumcision......."

 

You are behaving very much like the patient.......... mal in your command in english  and command in understanding the context mentioned.......... poor communication skill.......... created a scene and didn't know it.........

So..... google often to cross check your material if it is in the right context that facilitates your understanding...... DO NOT use it in hast if the two pages high school text book you read confuses you ...........

Use scientific dictionary often to prevent the same scene happening again...... 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by specinho

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, specinho said:

This is what you wrote:

On 4/29/2019 at 5:11 AM, Ward Smith said:

Dude, click on the link and edumacate yourself before you embarrass yourself further. 

The ocean is Basic, not acid as any litmus test will show you, and given it's salt content (a buffer), it's not going Acidic by any known process. 

 

I'm from the suburb....... So... what??.......

Here's the case:

Once upon a time........... a man went to a doctor asking for Castration......... The doctor was shocked. He would like to confirm what he heard:" Are you sure you want to cut it off?"

Patient:" Nonono........ I just want to cut the skin off............"

Doctor:" Aahhh.......... you mean Circumcision......."

 

You are behaving very much like the patient.......... mal in your command in english  and command in understanding the context mentioned.......... poor communication skill.......... created a scene and didn't know it.........

So..... google often to cross check your material if it is in the right context that facilitates your understanding...... DO NOT use it in hast if the two pages high school text book you read confuses you ...........

Use scientific dictionary often to prevent the same scene happening again...... 

 

You're in no position to criticize my English. If I could type Pinyin maybe we could move this to mandarin. 

Bottom line, Enthalpic erroneously assumed the salt I was referring to was common table salt. Then he compounded his error by giving an example of a strong acid/base not being buffered by NaCl.  The link clearly shows the buffering occurs with WEAK acid/base, which as any grade school science nerd knows is what carbonic acid is, the point of my post being that this weak acid was in no way causing the ocean to acidify. 

Learn of what you speak before you throw stones from your glass house, lest you further embarrass yourself. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:04 AM, Ward Smith said:

I've done all that and more. You're the one who said sodium chloride, the most common salt. That told me nothing about you, you could be a 12 year old for all I know, hence the child and the pointing to a VERY basic website explanation. My rule of thumb is that people lie on the internet unless they're using their real names. I'm guessing moms didn't name you Enthalpic. 

Meantime you are hiding behind the skinniest blade of grass now that I've made my point, and you've thoroughly lost yours. Are you 12,15,20? I have no way to know. My point about buffering stands, period. I'll admit I let you grab enough rope to hang yourself, your kind never go down easily. Moving goalposts doesn't work against me either. You might be a fairly bright high schooler for all I know, but if I inspire you to work harder at your studies and get you to pursue STEM, then I'm happy. Acidification of the oceans? It's hogwash and I named one (of many that I know) reasons why it is. Your weak sauce snarky failure of a response notwithstanding. Sure you want to tangle with ME? 

Watch out, watch out - there's an Internet Hardman about!😂

 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/24/2019 at 8:30 PM, ronwagn said:

They can move the city. Too bad, they built it on "permafrost". They need to adapt to nature. 

Yes - but that doesn't disprove the premises that the permafrost is melting - a  consequence of global warming (in the absence of any other apparent cause) 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

13 minutes ago, NickW said:

Watch out, watch out - there's an Internet Hardman about!😂

 

I was referring to intellectual not physical, if you were intellectually oriented you'd have seen that

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/27/2019 at 7:02 PM, Ward Smith said:

Pardon me while I try to get back on the subject of Permafrost melting/degrading/thawing

Multiple points to consider here, as a matter of science not hyperbole. First, it's been "melting" since the 60's. Anyone care to look up the CO2 levels then? I'll save you the trouble, about 100 ppm less than today. But saying the permafrost is melting is exactly the same as saying the ocean is acidifying.

The ocean is Basic, not acid as any litmus test will show you, and given it's salt content (a buffer), it's not going Acidic by any known process. What Might be happening is it might be getting slightly less basic, but it still has a LONG way to go to become acidic. 

Likewise, the permafrost can be thousands of feet deep, and we know this from published core data and oil companies' data. Do you believe it's ALL melting, or are we talking about the last meter? The earth is a massive heat sink and rock acts as an insulator. We know from SAGD results times thousands of well pairs and dozens of years with state of the art instrumentation that even when Trying to heat the earth, it isn't very cooperative. When the fires shut down production, producing well pairs took as long as six months to reestablish communication and produce again. Where did all that "heat" go? They are pumping in giga joules of thermal energy and the best the AGW crowd can come up with from sketchy "simulations" and "models" is a paltry 2watts per square meter. Does anyone with an IQ over room temperature believe that's enough to "melt" the permafrost? Why not just boil the ocean? 

I am feeling generous so I will help you out here.

Acidification means a lowering of pH. It doesn't necessarily mean turning something acid - with a pH below 7.0. 

I learnt that in Chemistry aged 12-13. 

[NickW + 2,714]

24 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

I was referring to intellectual not physical, if you were intellectually oriented you'd have seen that

Well clearly you are not as you fail to be able to differentiate between acidification and turning something acid.