My Rebuttal to: Trump’s Multi-Front War That Spooks Oil Markets

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10 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

- all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

Evil succeeds notwithstanding the hard work of good men.  It is the nature of evil, to succeed, as it appeals to the raw, base instincts found inside societies.  And you see that in the hostility expressed on these pages right here. 

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36 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

The fundamental problem with an "instant ID system" that you seem to advocate is that it rapidly morphs into an instrument for a very oppressive form of government control.  It is the way South Africa went with their "pass" system for blacks.  If you were black, you could not move around the country without showing your "Pass" at checkpoints, or be instantly arrested and jailed without trial.  The Pass system developed into a South African-style Gulag.   Right now, the Communist Chinese are doing the same thing, with their own pass system, which they have created electronically with facial-recognition cameras everywhere.  The cameras can find you out of a crown and track you for police arrest within five minutes of the Order coming down from the top, which is impressive in a country with over a billion people.  IT also allows that Communist government to imprison over one million Uighurs into concentration camps, complete with walls, razor wire, and guard towers, which the govt calls "colleges."  I think it is obvious what sort of education is going on in there.  If you want to jail people for social control reasons, that a National ID is the best way to go. 

I didn't consider that. 

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5 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I didn't consider that. 

And that is why you keep me around. Cheers. 

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14 hours ago, Oil_Engineer said:

There is a legal process for migrating to the United States and working or studying here, and if anyone wants to come here they should follow this pathway.  This is not racism or prejudice, it is the law.

While that is true, that path is ridiculously complex and broken. Good people wishing to contribute to the United States (as opposed to getting handouts) should have a way to enter the US. 

While I understand the need to protect American interests and keep jobs open for US citizens, there is plenty of room to welcome more. And people get in every day who shouldn't be here and who will be a drain, while other random people are excluded who a) want to be here and b) are not leeches on society. 

If the US is to solve its migrant problem, it must figure this out first. 

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2 minutes ago, Rodent said:

If the US is to solve its migrant problem, it must figure this out first. 

The immigration laws are developed by the Congress, and the Congress is unable to do that.  Indeed, the Congress is apparently unable to do anything at all. 

Having abdicated its responsibilities, the Congress no longer even bothers to show up for work.  Monday is considered a travel day and nothing gets scheduled.  Friday is travel day to get back home to the constituents and family.  That leaves Tuesday afternoon, Wednesday, and Thursday morning to actually convene. 

The Congress never actually convenes in any measurable sense.  When you look at those sessions in the House of Representatives, all you see are empty chairs.  Nobody ever shows up to do debates.  It is considered very poor form for a Member to challenge the Quota, the leadership on both sides does not want to be embarrassed.  The Congress never has any real quota.  Where are the members?  They are sitting in Committee, or in their offices dialing for dollars.  It is a complete disgrace.  And the fundamental reason is that House races (for re-election) are not competitive.  The Districts are mostly gerrymandered, to pick the voters.  And the voters are stupid enough to put up with this system, mostly because their representatives advance their social-issues agendas, including that great perennial, birth control and abortion for women. 

We have seen the result: a President that then takes over the duties of Congress by usurpation, and rules by Executive Order.  I remind you that that is exactly the way that Mr. Maduro runs Venezuela - disposes of the Congress, and issues Executive Orders.  Conclusion: we are now a full-fledged Banana Republic, the ultimate wet dream of William F. Buckley.  Have a nice day, people, you earned it. 

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2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

The white, typically Protestant, and essentially fascist people found inside the Republican Party (and sitting on the Trump Supreme Court) are using silver-tongued b ut irrational arguments to protect the old-school white power structure, including gerrymandering and the hysteria about "voter fraud," and their unwashed followers are swallowing it.  And you see that also in the writings here.

Not going to quote your entire "basket of deplorables" post Jan.  Let's just say I totally disagree with most of what you said. 

U.S. is sliding into South African Apartheid?  Just .... NO.  Playing the race card, Jan?  Really?  

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18 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Just for example, you continually reference "illegal immigrants."  There are very, very few illegal immigrants in the USA.  What you are referencing are disparate groups: visitors and undocumented persons.  It may surprise you to learn that it is not "illegal" to be in the USA without entry-visa documents. The USA has agreements with other countries that are favored nations to not require visas.  So for example you can be a Canadian and be free to enter and leave the country at will.  You have no "documents" because they do not exist for your nationality. As a practical matter, you can stay forever in the USA as a guest of the Administration - as long as you do not work, do not engage in internal politics (a big no-no), and avoid various categories of crimes. For example, if you beat your spouse you are subject to arrest and deportation.  If you are ticketed for speeding and either pay or contest the infraction charge you are not.  And so on. But none of that makes you "illegal."

 

I used to do work that involved officially interacting with Border Patrol agents, primarily along the Tucson sector of the border, but also into New Mexico and California. The terminology used by all Border Patrol personnel at the time (2003-2008) was "undocumented aliens," or "UDA's", for short. From what I understand, the situation was actually much worse then, both in terms of sheer numbers and there being a far higher percentage of UDA's being involved in drug smuggling. Most of the Border Patrol efforts were directed towards dealing with the smuggling in those days.  

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3 hours ago, scottywelbourne said:

I'm a long time reader, but a first time contributor. I have read the posts on this thread and the one discussion that America is not having is how much labor the country must import from elsewhere. With an unemployment rate of 3.60% as of April 2019, a declining birth rate and aging population,  America's demand for cheap labor in the years to come surely will intensify. Agriculture, Construction and the food service industries currently have large numbers working illegally and I am not aware of mass deportation orders been issued. I feel much rhetoric is been preached about closing borders, but no action taken once they have arrived. This is because the labor is an actual necessity in today's America. 

The unemployment rate is a farcical joke.  Total percentage in full time employment(40 hours) is the REAL number which should be used.  It used to be used.  Not that made up "unemployment" rate number which has its definition changed every other time a politician needs a positive story.  Likewise the "full time employment" percentage definition has ALSO changed.  It used to be 40 hours/wk.  Now it is 30 hours.  The unemployment rate are simply those who are "looking" or recently laid off.  Says nothing about the millions of druggies who have stopped looking as they cannot hold a job for more than 2 seconds and welfare pays better than working and who refuse to work in the fields and get off welfare.  Says nothing about teens who are NOT getting jobs who all used to work in ag etc and who now pretend they deserve a high paying jobs with ZERO experience showing discipline. 

As far as I am concerned, I would cut welfare by 75% and turn most of the illegal immigrants into citizens.  All of a sudden, Ag, meat processing industry, construction would be swamped with native born workers. 

 

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(edited)

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

A wall would also cost a lot more than an instant ID system.  

Yes, but a wall is politically feasible - and better than nothing.  What's your point here? 

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

So they don't drive down wages? Or is driving down wages not a problem? 

Immigrants can be divided into three groups:
1)  Freeloaders: these people stress the social safety net while contributing nothing.  They should be tossed out, no questions asked. 
2)  Laborers: these people work and pay taxes, but they also lower wages and displace American workers.  They should only be allowed in after every American community has full employment. 
3)  Contributors: these people start businesses, develop technologies, employ people, grow the economy, etc.  They truly give more than they take, benefiting US citizens even as they help themselves.  These people should be welcomed with open arms and offered a fast track to citizenship.  

Sadly, contributors are a minority.  Instead of a merit-based immigration policy, the US aimed for "fairness", setting quotas for each country and taking in people who are simply unable to survive in a competitive, capitalistic society.  This needs to change. 

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I thougth Trump was different. Independently wealthy and all... 

You're intentionally misinterpreting the idea that Trump is different.  Politics is based on what the wealthy want.  Trump is different in that, unlike the Clintons and their ilk, he can't be bought for mere millions.  He also has the education, experience, and resources to fight the wealthy.  When the public realized politics are based on what the wealthy find convenient, their response was to elect Trump.  He's wealthy and ruthless, but at least his interests are more-or-less aligned with theirs. 

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

There is a lot of truth in this, but also an implied apathy.... 

- all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. 

You conflate apathy with pragmatism.  Changing politics would require a wholesale change to human nature, which isn't going to happen.  Instead of pining after a mythical nature we wish for, we must learn to work with the nature we have.  Indulging our fantasies will only empower unscrupulous people, who will use our willful ignorance to take advantage of us. 

 

As a side note, I've noticed that your rhetorical style consists of intentional misunderstandings ("I thought Trump was different..."), cheap jabs you believe to be pithy ("So they don't drive down wages..."), and thinly veiled insults ("...but also an implied apathy").  It would be nice if you at least tried to add substance to your arguments.  I know not everyone has the ability to be insightful, but you could at least outline a thought process instead of regurgitating talking points. 

Edited by BenFranklin'sSpectacles
Phrasing.
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6 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Not going to quote your entire "basket of deplorables" post Jan. 

Only call it deplorable when I see it.  So far we have had:

- Suggestion that the opioid crisis is a good thing because it kills off the unwanted.  Never mind the fact that much of the crisis was created by doctors and the pharmaceutical industry. 

- Suggestion that the death penalty for drug trafficking is reasonable.

- Random ID checks are a good idea.

- Spraying an entire - foreign - ecosystem with herbicide.

- Plain old racism and religious intolerance.

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18 hours ago, Rodent said:

Thanks! I've got to get me one of those shoes that "clams" 😁 thank goodness it's "gender natural"

And look at that eyebrow! Klingon perhaps? 

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1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

Only call it deplorable when I see it.  So far we have had:

- Suggestion that the opioid crisis is a good thing because it kills off the unwanted.  Never mind the fact that much of the crisis was created by doctors and the pharmaceutical industry. 

- Suggestion that the death penalty for drug trafficking is reasonable.

- Random ID checks are a good idea.

- Spraying an entire - foreign - ecosystem with herbicide.

- Plain old racism and religious intolerance.

oh please. herbicide? What idiot proposed that idea? That's just silly.

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31 minutes ago, Rodent said:

oh please. herbicide? What idiot proposed that idea? That's just silly.

Thanks for the laugh this morning Rodent, you have a wonderfully amusing sense of ironic response.

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Look at the chart at the bottom.  144,000 people apprehended by U.S. Border Patrol in May alone.  That does not count the number of border crossers who were *not* apprehended.

No Deal – U.S. and Mexico Officials Fail to Reach Agreement on Border, Immigration, tariffs

According to recent reporting, officials representing the U.S. and Mexico have failed to reach an agreement on measures to stop the flood of migrants traveling through Mexico.  As a result of the scale of the crisis, and without an agreement from Mexico to stop the worsening problem, President Trump has announced tariffs on imported goods from Mexico will start June 10th.

 

... Predictably Mexican President Lopez-Obrador is unwilling to stop the migration from Central America.  There are strong indications the Mexican government does not control the border region as Mexican drug cartels are in charge.

Last month U.S. Customs and Border Patrol report 144,278 people were apprehended attempting to cross the U.S. southern border in May alone.  The region is in crisis.

 

mexico-border-region.jpg

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

mexico-border-region.jpg

An increase of apprehension rates could be evidence of improved border security; although I'm pretty sure you attribute it to increased pressure.

Edited by Enthalpic

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17 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Yes, but a wall is politically feasible - and better than nothing.  What's your point here? 

My point was simply that the same result could be achieved with less money. I am 100 % sure that some ID system could be invented and visa rules loosened to achieve what you want to achieve at less cost than a wall. I recall in your other posts you were against government wastefull spending... 

NB! A big reservation here for the potential mis-use application of an ID system.

18 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Immigrants can be divided into three groups:
1)  Freeloaders: these people stress the social safety net while contributing nothing.  They should be tossed out, no questions asked. 
2)  Laborers: these people work and pay taxes, but they also lower wages and displace American workers.  They should only be allowed in after every American community has full employment. 
3)  Contributors: these people start businesses, develop technologies, employ people, grow the economy, etc.  They truly give more than they take, benefiting US citizens even as they help themselves.  These people should be welcomed with open arms and offered a fast track to citizenship.  

Sadly, contributors are a minority.  Instead of a merit-based immigration policy, the US aimed for "fairness", setting quotas for each country and taking in people who are simply unable to survive in a competitive, capitalistic society.  This needs to change. 

see above. 

 

18 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

You're intentionally misinterpreting the idea that Trump is different.  Politics is based on what the wealthy want.  Trump is different in that, unlike the Clintons and their ilk, he can't be bought for mere millions.  He also has the education, experience, and resources to fight the wealthy.  When the public realized politics are based on what the wealthy find convenient, their response was to elect Trump.  He's wealthy and ruthless, but at least his interests are more-or-less aligned with theirs. 

I don't understand your above paragraph. I can see following statements: 

1) Trump is wealthy

2) Politics is based on what the wealthy want

3) Trump knows how to figth the wealthy, because he is wealthy

4) Trumps interests are more or less aligned with the people

It seems rather contradictory. Sorry. 

18 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

As a side note, I've noticed that your rhetorical style consists of intentional misunderstandings

That is not the case. I try to point things out that are contradictory to me; Such as

1) Wastefull leftist spending is bad / wasteful spending on a wall is good

2) Some immigrants are welcome / Some are not. How do you distinguish the 2? 

18 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

and thinly veiled insults

It was actually meant as a compliment. I meant that you seem intelligent and instead of just playing to win you could probably do more to better you community / country. 

I am sorry that you took it as an insult. 

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(edited)

On 6/5/2019 at 1:03 PM, Jan van Eck said:

Evil succeeds notwithstanding the hard work of good men.  It is the nature of evil, to succeed, as it appeals to the raw, base instincts found inside societies.  And you see that in the hostility expressed on these pages right here. 

I see the world, not for what it is, but for what it can be. 

call me naive. Maybe I will change this view when I grow older. 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

NB! A big reservation here for the potential mis-use application of an ID system.

Rasmus, governments consist of bureaucrats. The nature of the bureaucrat is a certain mind-set that is alien to anyone and everyone that takes risks and builds something, from the oil-rig guy to the finance guy to the prospector looking at some seismic survey chart.  The bureaucrat mindset is: "I was assigned a job, I did that job, things went wrong, it is not my fault, I am not responsible,"  So you will have, just for example,a nuclear plant blow up at Chernobyl, Ukraine, and nobody claims accountability, because everybody involved is a bureaucrat and has that mindset. 

Now the exponent of that is that technology, whether it is the massive number of control CCTV cameras and data banks sitting in China, or the US border-control computers that log everyone in and out of the country, to the interconnected US DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles) computers that know every single parking ticket you ever received, which you have paid, and then refuse you renew your driver's permit until you pay them and get a receipt satisfactory to that computer system  (which means a certified self-authenticating receipt, plus having it logged into the system), any I.D. system is going to end up being abused in a draconian manner.  It is the nature of the bureaucrat.  It will take over your life and end up being used to control your life. And that is why these I.D. systems are so dangerous: they start out with good intentions, and end up perverted into some nightmare. 

The only way to gain freedom is to destroy machine-readable ID systems.  Period.  None are mellow; none will ever be beneficial (except to the controllers).

Now, remember this:  ordinary people with good intentions and kind hearts are not going to be in those jobs running those ID systems.  Those nice people go do something else with their lives.  The people who get into those control systems have personal and emotional issues, and so inevitably evil comes out of them.  You are or will be unleashing evil, and just how bad it gets becomes a function of how long that system is in existence.  To see just how awful life becomes under such control systems, I invite you to take a side trip to some Communist State, such as Cuba or N. Korea.  Your life, as you know it, is gone. It ends.  Not pleasant. 

Nuclear weapons are not the threat and will not end life as we know it.  Computerized ID systems will. Ponder that truism. 

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I never say to much on here but I read a lot and I see a lot of people on here believe we can't stop what going on at the southern border and stop people from coming here and I agree with that in part, But that being said I believe if they would start fining the people who work Illegals ought to make it where they couldn't afford to work them you would see a big drop in how many come here. Also if we really got serious about the drug runners put our military base's along the border and let them take care of the gangs as they would have the fire power to stop most of them, I know some will not agree with that but if your going to stop the bad guys you got to have the right people to be able to do it!  

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12 minutes ago, Stephenk said:

I never say to much on here but I read a lot and I see a lot of people on here believe we can't stop what going on at the southern border and stop people from coming here and I agree with that in part, But that being said I believe if they would start fining the people who work Illegals ought to make it where they couldn't afford to work them you would see a big drop in how many come here. Also if we really got serious about the drug runners put our military base's along the border and let them take care of the gangs as they would have the fire power to stop most of them, I know some will not agree with that but if your going to stop the bad guys you got to have the right people to be able to do it!  

Welcome to our playground!

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2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Rasmus, governments consist of bureaucrats. The nature of the bureaucrat is a certain mind-set that is alien to anyone and everyone that takes risks and builds something, from the oil-rig guy to the finance guy to the prospector looking at some seismic survey chart.  The bureaucrat mindset is: "I was assigned a job, I did that job, things went wrong, it is not my fault, I am not responsible,"  So you will have, just for example,a nuclear plant blow up at Chernobyl, Ukraine, and nobody claims accountability, because everybody involved is a bureaucrat and has that mindset. 

Now the exponent of that is that technology, whether it is the massive number of control CCTV cameras and data banks sitting in China, or the US border-control computers that log everyone in and out of the country, to the interconnected US DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles) computers that know every single parking ticket you ever received, which you have paid, and then refuse you renew your driver's permit until you pay them and get a receipt satisfactory to that computer system  (which means a certified self-authenticating receipt, plus having it logged into the system), any I.D. system is going to end up being abused in a draconian manner.  It is the nature of the bureaucrat.  It will take over your life and end up being used to control your life. And that is why these I.D. systems are so dangerous: they start out with good intentions, and end up perverted into some nightmare. 

The only way to gain freedom is to destroy machine-readable ID systems.  Period.  None are mellow; none will ever be beneficial (except to the controllers).

Now, remember this:  ordinary people with good intentions and kind hearts are not going to be in those jobs running those ID systems.  Those nice people go do something else with their lives.  The people who get into those control systems have personal and emotional issues, and so inevitably evil comes out of them.  You are or will be unleashing evil, and just how bad it gets becomes a function of how long that system is in existence.  To see just how awful life becomes under such control systems, I invite you to take a side trip to some Communist State, such as Cuba or N. Korea.  Your life, as you know it, is gone. It ends.  Not pleasant. 

Nuclear weapons are not the threat and will not end life as we know it.  Computerized ID systems will. Ponder that truism. 

That's....... bleak

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17 hours ago, Rodent said:

oh please. herbicide? What idiot proposed that idea? That's just silly.

Not to complain overmuch, but when I evinced similar wording, substituting a synonym for "idiot", you gave me a permanent warning. When I later said someone's understanding wasn't deep enough, you banned me for 3 days. The rules of this road are anything but clear

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15 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Not to complain overmuch, but when I evinced similar wording, substituting a synonym for "idiot", you gave me a permanent warning. When I later said someone's understanding wasn't deep enough, you banned me for 3 days. The rules of this road are anything but clear

Oh, my apologies. Since I am the idiot who proposed the herbicide idea, I gave myself a pass. I was confident I would not take offense. But you are correct, what a lousy role model!!

 

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2 hours ago, Stephenk said:

Also if we really got serious about the drug runners put our military base's along the border and let them take care of the gangs as they would have the fire power to stop most of them, I know some will not agree with that but if your going to stop the bad guys you got to have the right people to be able to do it!  

One reason this is not going to work is because then you are declaring the entire Border area a free-fire zone.

You will end up with quite a few civilians caught up in the shooting, and predictably the majority of those will be dead. You will be unable to distinguish between a person who did report to an Inspection Station and was passed through (the vast majority of people from Mexico in the Border area) and those who walked across or climbed the fence (which gets done typically at night). Further, quite a few folks in that area are Americans who "look Mexican."  You can have a sixth-generation American whose ancestors were from Mexico, "look Mexican."  What are you going to do, shoot him? 

There are also laws about using the Army in that fashion, but hey, you can dispense with those if you are planning a military occupation of part of the USA, why not, go whole hog. 

This is one of those proposals that "sounds good," but is uniquely unworkable.  I would also point out that most of the flow of drugs is through perfectly legal points of entry.  The Border area down South has had its personnel vastly expanded in a short time, so the candidates are not thoroughly vetted. There is so much money to be made, the cartels simply go buy themselves an Agent - who in turn waves their semi-trailer truck through the checkpoint.  Why bother lugging narcotics through some desert when a bribe gets you 40,000 lbs. of the stuff on a hard-paved road?  

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