Mayors Across country commit to buying EVs

Mayors from across the area are committing to purchasing for additional than two,100 electrical autos — together with university buses — by 2020 to fill out close by governing administration fleets.

The pledge was made by 127 cities across 38 states who have banded jointly to assortment a getting bloc, recognised as the Climate Mayors Electrical powered Car or truck Buying Collaborative, in get to get enhanced pricing on the vehicles.

https://trulytimes.com/mayors-across-country-commit-to-buying-electric-vehicles.html

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NYC has been operating electric vehicles for some time. They're on the record as stating that the maintenance costs on the EVs are a fraction of the ICE vehicles - in some cases by 90%.

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6 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

NYC has been operating electric vehicles for some time. They're on the record as stating that the maintenance costs on the EVs are a fraction of the ICE vehicles - in some cases by 90%.

^ This.  People forget that vehicle maintenance is far more expensive for governments than for individuals, if only because public employees must be paid to shuttle those vehicles to and from the maintenance depot. 

There's also the issue of a public that's becoming progressively less intelligent, less educated, and less competent.  Today's governments need vehicles to be as simple to operate, maintenance-free, and bulletproof as possible.  EVs provide that. 

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"There's also the issue of a public that's becoming progressively less intelligent, less educated, and less competent." I would be interested in seeing what you're working from that supports this conclusion.

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21 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

"There's also the issue of a public that's becoming progressively less intelligent, less educated, and less competent." I would be interested in seeing what you're working from that supports this conclusion.

This isn't something people collect data on.  I track it by watching the quality of education, the quality of various professions, etc. 

In times past, one could find incredibly intelligent blue collar workers, which meant you could find a competent, honest local vehicle mechanic and keep your old car running at reasonable cost.  Today, that's far more difficult.  This has implications for government fleets: if they can't find honest, competent mechanics, then EVs make more financial sense. 

In times past, earning a bachelors degree in engineering meant you had some competence.  Today, my observation is that 70-80% of public university engineering graduates have no clue what they're doing - and it's getting worse every year.  Normally one would say university graduates are "book smart" while lacking "street smarts".  Today's graduates don't even have book smarts.  I also compare American graduates to graduates of European universities and note that America is falling progressively further behind.  Even the professors have told me that they can't give the same exams they gave 25 years ago because today's students can't handle them. 

That's engineering.  The liberal arts are a completely lost cause.  I don't even know where to begin on their ignorance, warped thinking, and complete inability to get work done. 

My grandparents were quite successful without the benefit of modern technology, welfare programs, or even a high school education.  Today, I observe college graduates who'd die of starvation without pre-packaged food.  They're morons. 

Then I look around and see drug addiction, unemployment, failing communities, crime, violence - all hallmarks of low average intelligence. 

I've see some people defy the odds to live successfully, and I see other people fail despite being given everything.  The biggest differentiating factor seems to be intelligence. 

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True story. At the time I had an excellent young EE Engineer with a Masters. Book smarts was off the charts but hands on particle experience was minimal at best. Like most of our kids he spent most of his life receiving a formal education.

We are talking and he states his car has been left in the parking lot and will not start. I go out with him and when we pop the hood he is missing the belt that goes to the alternator of his car. Obvious problem solved for most of us but he just doesn’t have much real world experience to supplement his excellent formal education. 

Like most of our young today he is liberal in his politics. What I hope happens with him and most of his peers is that real world education will show them the true value of his liberal education. If not I fear for this country that I love so much.

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(edited)

Not a new concept but was phased out as it was to expensive seems to be getting a second chance but the underlying fundamentals are still apparent that’s it’s just to expensive to supply, maintain and implement efficiently at this point in time, once wind farms make the electricity and non fossil fuels are used to fabricate these EVs I will be onboard.

At this point it’s an expensive option which is not ready, we should be considering GNV before we go directly to EVs.

A5018FE2-38C5-4431-8B45-10A5B7B5C203.jpeg

Edited by James Regan
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4 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

This isn't something people collect data on.  I track it by watching the quality of education, the quality of various professions, etc. 

In times past, one could find incredibly intelligent blue collar workers, which meant you could find a competent, honest local vehicle mechanic and keep your old car running at reasonable cost.  Today, that's far more difficult.  This has implications for government fleets: if they can't find honest, competent mechanics, then EVs make more financial sense. 

In times past, earning a bachelors degree in engineering meant you had some competence.  Today, my observation is that 70-80% of public university engineering graduates have no clue what they're doing - and it's getting worse every year.  Normally one would say university graduates are "book smart" while lacking "street smarts".  Today's graduates don't even have book smarts.  I also compare American graduates to graduates of European universities and note that America is falling progressively further behind.  Even the professors have told me that they can't give the same exams they gave 25 years ago because today's students can't handle them. 

That's engineering.  The liberal arts are a completely lost cause.  I don't even know where to begin on their ignorance, warped thinking, and complete inability to get work done. 

My grandparents were quite successful without the benefit of modern technology, welfare programs, or even a high school education.  Today, I observe college graduates who'd die of starvation without pre-packaged food.  They're morons. 

Then I look around and see drug addiction, unemployment, failing communities, crime, violence - all hallmarks of low average intelligence. 

I've see some people defy the odds to live successfully, and I see other people fail despite being given everything.  The biggest differentiating factor seems to be intelligence. 

In other words, most people are **it. That outlook seems to be common here if not prevalent.

Do you have food in your belly? Are the lights on? Is your car running (fueled, maintained, etc.)? Can you call your friends in Europe/North America/Australia, etc.? Can you show up at the airport and book a flight to New Zealand, and actually get there? If everyone is morons, how is all this possible?

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2 hours ago, James Regan said:

Not a new concept but was phased out as it was to expensive

Your (British, I presume) double-decker electric trolley would be cheap enough to run, but the problem today is that the trackage has been torn up.  That removes the ground path for the current, so you would now need to either put the rails back in or use a double pole system in the overhead.  Those double-wire systems are more difficult in operation, and I have seen them de-wire, which is a continuing headache. Would systems that use NO wires, and operate with super-capacitor banks between charge points, be a better idea?  Apparently they think so in Germany, where such systems, developed by Siemens, are used in the historical protected areas in city centers  (where they don't want wires strung).  Cheers.

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28 minutes ago, Meredith Poor said:

If everyone is morons, how is all this possible?

Come on, Meredith, you are a sharp guy, you already know that not "everyone" is a "moron."  That said, there is a distribution curve in intelligence, and skill sets that would be appropriate in an agrarian, non-technological society become useless in a technological one.  At this point in time roughly 16% of US population has an IQ of 85 or below.  10% has an IQ of 83 or below.  83 is the cut-off at which a candidate cannot be inducted into the US Army. They are considered too functionally stupid to do any task inside the entire Army.  Now, since that comprises 10% of the population, that is a sobering prospect. 

If you continue to make society more technological, then you continue to require smarter people to run it.  There is a huge difference between hooking up a horse collar and a plow to a horse, and fixing the GPS tracker on a diesel farm harrowing tractor. Both accomplish the same task - plowing the farm field.  One requires no skill beyond basic; the other, is highly technical.  You continue to need smarter people. 

The real problem facing society (int eh West, anyway) is what to do with that bottom 16% of the intelligence spread.  Those people are just too stupid to work in our modern society.  The systems keep running because they tend to get more automated, and thus require less personnel. The bottom 16% become unemployable, and drop out of the labor force.  How to find occupations for that group is not easy.  This stuff gets complicated fast, and I sure don't have any solutions. 

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On 6/29/2019 at 5:25 AM, Meredith Poor said:

NYC has been operating electric vehicles for some time. They're on the record as stating that the maintenance costs on the EVs are a fraction of the ICE vehicles - in some cases by 90%.

NYC is a bit of a special case.  It is a very dense city and the average vehicle speed is about 4 or 5 mph.  Thus its vehicles use relatively little stored power in a day.  You could use a low-capacity, cheaper battery pack and it would be adequate.  You also get away from having to truck liquid fuel (gasoline mostly) into the City, and obviously eliminate the exhaust factor, which is a really big problem inside NYC.  

My guess is that, after govt vehicles, NYC will require all yellow-cab taxis to be electric. How that gets organized with the medallions should be interesting. Right now, the medallions are permanently affixed to the motor hood sheet metal, with rivets.  The Regulations do not allow the medallion to be moved between actual cars. So the Regulations will need to be overhauled. And in NY, that never happens!

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1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

Come on, Meredith, you are a sharp guy, you already know that not "everyone" is a "moron."  That said, there is a distribution curve in intelligence, and skill sets that would be appropriate in an agrarian, non-technological society become useless in a technological one.

"In times past, earning a bachelors degree in engineering meant you had some competence.  Today, my observation is that 70-80% of public university engineering graduates have no clue what they're doing - and it's getting worse every year" My response was in the framework of this quote.

I'm also not sure what is meant by 'engineer' in this case. My understanding of the term circa 1970 to 1990 was stuff like electrical engineering, civil, mechanical, chemical, etc. These days it seems to be the default title of software developers and web developers. 

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Islandboy posted some articles on the Peak Oil Barrel website about how some commercial electric vehicles were holding up after 10 years. My take on it was not very well. It seems many were not heavy duty enough. However that might not be unusual. It takes awhile to work out bugs etc.

http://peakoilbarrel.com/electric-commercial-vehicles-a-ten-year-update-part-1/

 

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(edited)

3 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

In other words, most people are **it. That outlook seems to be common here if not prevalent. 

Do you have food in your belly? Are the lights on? Is your car running (fueled, maintained, etc.)? Can you call your friends in Europe/North America/Australia, etc.? Can you show up at the airport and book a flight to New Zealand, and actually get there? If everyone is morons, how is all this possible? 

 

3 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Come on, Meredith, you are a sharp guy, you already know that not "everyone" is a "moron."  That said, there is a distribution curve in intelligence, and skill sets that would be appropriate in an agrarian, non-technological society become useless in a technological one.  At this point in time roughly 16% of US population has an IQ of 85 or below.  10% has an IQ of 83 or below.  83 is the cut-off at which a candidate cannot be inducted into the US Army. They are considered too functionally stupid to do any task inside the entire Army.  Now, since that comprises 10% of the population, that is a sobering prospect. 

If you continue to make society more technological, then you continue to require smarter people to run it.  There is a huge difference between hooking up a horse collar and a plow to a horse, and fixing the GPS tracker on a diesel farm harrowing tractor. Both accomplish the same task - plowing the farm field.  One requires no skill beyond basic; the other, is highly technical.  You continue to need smarter people.  

 The real problem facing society (int eh West, anyway) is what to do with that bottom 16% of the intelligence spread.  Those people are just too stupid to work in our modern society.  The systems keep running because they tend to get more automated, and thus require less personnel. The bottom 16% become unemployable, and drop out of the labor force.  How to find occupations for that group is not easy.  This stuff gets complicated fast, and I sure don't have any solutions.  

I agree there's a distribution.  My point was that, as compared to 20 years ago, society is running less smoothly, and the exact same positions are filled with progressively less competent people. 

To answer Meredith's question: society isn't running smoothly.  It's running on the fumes of past competence, with important institutions falling into disarray as older, more competent generations retire.  At this point, I have no hope for the entire country.  We'll be lucky if pockets of competence manage to defend themselves against the hordes of morons.  I.e. we'll be lucky if we devolve into fascism or a dictatorship instead of outright failing. 

Edit: forgot to answer Meredith's other question.  I observed the traditional engineering disciplines: mechanical, electrical, civil, etc.  The way incompetence is playing out in engineering is that specific disciplines fall first.  E.g. Mechanical is in a bad state relative to electrical because it's easier.  Industrial is in an even worse state than Mechanical.  Diversity hires and incompetents flock to the easier engineering disciplines while competent students flee to the more difficult, lucrative disciplines.  A hierarchy emerges within the disciplines.  When the diversity hires and incompetents begin to permeate disciplines that simply cannot tolerate incompetence, employers begin standing up programs at private universities.  The graduates of now incompetent programs find it difficult to obtain real engineering work and end up doing supervision, management, project management, etc.  Their degree is engineering, but few of them become real engineers. 

Basically, as The Public loses IQ, competent people create new institutions to protect themselves and the critical work they perform from a flood of incompetence. 

Edited by BenFranklin'sSpectacles
Added content.

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39 minutes ago, Danlxyz said:

Islandboy posted some articles on the Peak Oil Barrel website about how some commercial electric vehicles were holding up after 10 years. My take on it was not very well. It seems many were not heavy duty enough. However that might not be unusual. It takes awhile to work out bugs etc.

http://peakoilbarrel.com/electric-commercial-vehicles-a-ten-year-update-part-1/

Early generations of EV Li-ion batteries were known to have problems.  This issue has since been resolved. 

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45 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Diversity hires and incompetents

In other words, people of color, ethnic minorities, and women. Say something like that and you get booted off.

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"We'll be lucky if pockets of competence manage to defend themselves against the hordes of morons."

As someone who started programming in the 1970's, the general rule at the time (mainframes and minicomputers) was that one worked in 'a single' language (except that JCL might be another language for the mainframers). The language might be COBOL, Fortran, Assembler, etc.

Once web development moves into mainstream work, one is working in Java (or Visual Basic or C#), Javascript, and T-SQL (or PL/SQL) at a minimum, with further understanding of HTML and CSS expected. The 1980's was pretty much 16-bit environments as far as PCs go, so one made do with Basic, C, and/or dBase/Foxpro, etc. At the point when 32-bit operating systems mature (really right around 2000), then 'large numbers of people become incompetent'. Either that, or the complexity has just increased by orders of magnitude.

I have no argument that "society is running less smoothly". One possible source of problems has to do with the distance the most well off are from 'everyone else'. This means physical distance in one respect, and social distance in another. 'Diversity hires' is a particularly telling code word in this respect.

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1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

"We'll be lucky if pockets of competence manage to defend themselves against the hordes of morons."

As someone who started programming in the 1970's, the general rule at the time (mainframes and minicomputers) was that one worked in 'a single' language (except that JCL might be another language for the mainframers). The language might be COBOL, Fortran, Assembler, etc.

Once web development moves into mainstream work, one is working in Java (or Visual Basic or C#), Javascript, and T-SQL (or PL/SQL) at a minimum, with further understanding of HTML and CSS expected. The 1980's was pretty much 16-bit environments as far as PCs go, so one made do with Basic, C, and/or dBase/Foxpro, etc. At the point when 32-bit operating systems mature (really right around 2000), then 'large numbers of people become incompetent'. Either that, or the complexity has just increased by orders of magnitude.

I have no argument that "society is running less smoothly". One possible source of problems has to do with the distance the most well off are from 'everyone else'. This means physical distance in one respect, and social distance in another. 'Diversity hires' is a particularly telling code word in this respect.

Computer science is one of the difficult, critically important fields that still attracts intelligent people.  It's also largely immune from the diversity hire problem because few of those hires choose such a demanding field. 

Even so, I hear computer scientists complaining about how little new graduates know, how poor their critical thinking skills are, etc.  When I interacted with Computer Science/Engineering students, they complained about foreign students from corrupt cultures who cheated their way through school, driving away competent people in the process.  The education system is certainly declining.  I can't speak for private industry though. 

What's a "code word", and why is "diversity hires" one of them? 

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10 hours ago, butasha said:

True story. At the time I had an excellent young EE Engineer with a Masters. Book smarts was off the charts but hands on particle experience was minimal at best. Like most of our kids he spent most of his life receiving a formal education.

We are talking and he states his car has been left in the parking lot and will not start. I go out with him and when we pop the hood he is missing the belt that goes to the alternator of his car. Obvious problem solved for most of us but he just doesn’t have much real world experience to supplement his excellent formal education. 

Like most of our young today he is liberal in his politics. What I hope happens with him and most of his peers is that real world education will show them the true value of his liberal education. If not I fear for this country that I love so much.

His inability to diagnose why his car would not start did not have anything to do with his politics.  For that matter, I am a lawyer, not an auto mechanic, so I probably would not know, either.

You are castigating him for not knowing something outside his field of expertise.  I have developed an idea that society advances through specialization.  But the downside is that it also creates a single point of failure when things go wrong.  In theory, he should have had access to someone else who could diagnose the problem. But people tend to want get paid for that sort of thing, and being a poor college student, he probably didn't have it.

Truth be known, as a lawyer, I am extremely well educated, but that does not mean you should expect me to diagnose car problems, either.  To paraphrase Dr. McCoy of Star Trek, I am a lawyer, not an auto mechanic.

I have a liberal education, too.  And my inability to solve auto breakdowns does not have anything to do with my politics.  As the Good Book says, the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

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6 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Those people are just too stupid to work in our modern society.  The systems keep running because they tend to get more automated, and thus require less personnel. The bottom 16% become unemployable, and drop out of the labor force.  How to find occupations for that group is not easy.  This stuff gets complicated fast, and I sure don't have any solutions.

There is always work that needs to be done, even by "stupid" people.  It is just that rich people don't want to pay them to do it.  They want people to "volunteer."

I think we should re-set up the old Works Projects Administration and Civilian Conservation Corp to put these people to do work recycling and fixing trails in our national, state and local parks.  Have them pick up trash, etc.  That does not require a lot of intelligence and would keep them busy doing something useful.  And everyone would be happier for it, as we would be cleaning up pollution at the same time.  Win win, as far as I am concerned.

Edited by Okie
Forgot should.

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11 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

To answer Meredith's question: society isn't running smoothly.  It's running on the fumes of past competence, with important institutions falling into disarray as older, more competent generations retire.  At this point, I have no hope for the entire country.  We'll be lucky if pockets of competence manage to defend themselves against the hordes of morons.  I.e. we'll be lucky if we devolve into fascism or a dictatorship instead of outright failing. 

Are you serious ?

Are things that bad that fascism would better?

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1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Are things that bad that fascism would better?

We have segments of that now inside the USA. 

Take for example the behavior of the National Security Agency, where they have a division called the "Border Patrol."  These guys dress up in green outfits and strap the gigantic cannons onto their legs, then go set up roadblocks and every auto that comes in, they demand:  "Are you a U.S. Citizen?"  If you decline to answer, a right fundamentally guaranteed by the 4th, 5th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, then they pull you out and make you "sit" right there on the side of the road until you "Answer."  And if you don't "Answer" the way they like, then they slap the handcuffs on you and transport you to their jail, and you sit there until they get tired of you. 

There is the famous case of a Border Patrol agent at a checkpoint that they set up I think it was on some road in New Hampshire, and along came a Member of Congress, this was on the 4th of July holiday with tons of traffic.  The Congressman, who was in his summer shirt and slacks and with his family, asked the man, "What is your authority for this?"  And the Guard patted his gigantic pistol and responded: "This is all the authority I need."    That response did not go over very big. 

This is far worse than the fascism you found in Europe.  This is a mutant version of Fascism, a classic totalitarian State, being resisted I grant you by very brave souls.  My personal response would be to just start speaking French or German (or both) to these morons, given that there is no official language in the USA, and if they don't like it, I'll sue them, "See you in Court!"  But remember what the NSA is doing here: they hire these guys who developed a "C" grade average in high school, precisely because they do not want anyone bright working there.  It is basically the Storm Troopers of Star Wars, hired as "magnificent clones" to go do your bidding and not really think about it too much.  these are stupid people, but they do understand the concept of bullying with guns. Fascism?  You bet.  Here today. Right now.  Welcome to America.

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9 hours ago, Okie said:

I think we should re-set up the old Works Projects Administration and Civilian Conservation Corp to put these people to do work recycling and fixing trails in our national, state and local parks.  Have them pick up trash, etc. 

Sorry, Okie, at an IQ of 83 the respondent is not bright enough for any of that.  You put a man with that IQ on the roadside picking up trash and he will get run over.  "Fixing trails"?  Not likely.  That requires cognitive thinking, not plausible at IQ 83.  Remember that at 83 the Army will refuse to induct you, you are not capable of even simple tasks such as cleaning out the cooking pots in the kitchen.  And that comprises some 10% of the society. 

The further problem is that even people with this low IQ go out there are reproduce.  They do not have the skills to raise a child and so social welfare has to take the child away  (already a cruel thing to do) and send out for adoption, but unfortunately the child will inherit the gene pattern of the parents and is not going to end up functional either.  So you get this perpetuation of the really stupid, and the payment levels for work done, if any, has nothing to do with it.  I have no solution for any of this, particularly as any plausible work assignment will require immense levels of supervision.  It is a real problem.  

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13 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Basically, as The Public loses IQ, competent people create new institutions to protect themselves and the critical work they perform from a flood of incompetence. 

That is a very interesting comment.  I find it not to be true in the case of the court system.  There, every participant is dumbed down; you end up with totally stupid judges (because most judges are attorneys who have failed in private practice, and as judge at least have a steady income from the State, plus some prestige, or they are former prosecutors),and stupid prosecutors (because it is discouraging work to be a prosecutor, dealing with that sea of flotsam that washes up in the court system) as the bright people end up leaving, not wanting to spend their lives doing that sort of work, and then there are the clerks, who have become progressively stupider, as the pool of applicants tends to get uniformly of lower grade, the brighter clerical workers getting better pay in industry. 

Ultimately, society falls apart.  An interesting indicator of this is a roadway bridge in Rhode Island, just north of Providence, on the Interstate. the bridge, made of concrete, is structurally compromised due to the use of road salt having eaten away at the internal re-bar and corroded everything.  So the road weight limit is now 26,000 lbs but has to be at no more than two axles.   The logical solution is to fix that bridge, probably by dismantling it and building a new one.  The proper service weight in Rhode Island is 95,000 lbs or possibly 105,000 lbs, I don't remember the details.  The Rhode Island bureaucrat solution is instead to just leave it as a decrepit bridge, and put a police team on it to go fine any vehicle, truck or bus, that goes over it with either three or more axles or is over that weight (basically, only an empty two-axle truck or bus can pass).  And the fine is $5,000.  And of course that sets up a cottage industry of lawyers to go defend against those huge fines. 

Now to demonstrate just how incompetent this is, if your truck is 26,000 lbs and two axles, you can pass, but if it is 26,000 lbs and three or more axles, then you get the fine.  However, obviously there is less stress on that bridge with three axles than two, as the weight is better distributed, and less weight per axle.  So even the so-called solution of weight limitation cannot be intelligently applied, as the rule-making bureaucrats are too stupid to figure it out.  What you have is this massive incompetence, even worse than what you find is a massively bureaucratic society such as India. So what the trucking companies do is Order their drivers to only take a different route, and thus creating a cocoon or envelope of protection from the low-IQ bureaucrats (and their low-IQ enforcers) inside Rhode Island.

And to no surprise, Rhode Island is beyond flat broke, it is financially upside-down, basically bankrupt, with no realistic hope of any recovery.  And this is what happens when stupid people replicate themselves inside a complex society. 

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11 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

What's a "code word", and why is "diversity hires" one of them? 

To answer your question obliquely: What does a 'Liberal' mean when they describe someone as a 'Trump Supporter'? What do they mean when they use the term 'Republicans' as a whole? Would you agree that these are code words for a set of attitudes or characteristics that conservatives might view as prejudicial?

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