Sweden's Biggest Cities Face Power Shortage Due To Tax Hike on Fossil Fuels

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

The heck is going on in this thread? 

Personal attacks and name calling are frowned upon here.

Chill...

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,133]

11 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Alright you've officially lost all credibility. First: Ammonia isn't reactive. Second: This ammonia is in a pipe, and I'm certain at this point that your knowledge of thermodynamics is limited. Ammonia's specific heat and boiling point is perfect for use in refrigeration and heat transfer. 

You idiot, look at the yellow box for the NFPA. IT'S A ZERO. AS IN: NOT VERY REACTIVE. You probably don't even know what an oxidizer is. I can't believe I've wasted my time with a total incompetent. 

Dear sir, the object is HEAT TRANSFER to generate power and why ZERO geothermal plants use a closed loop piped system.  The basics of geothermal operations: dear sir, you pump UP from one location and pump DOWN in another location a LONG ways away allowing the water to spread out through a LARGE surface area to collect heat before being sucked back up.  A pipe has a miniscule surface area and why no one does closed loop geothermal other than for shallow depth residential heating.  Why?  Engineers spending their own $$$ aren't stupid. 

Ammonia as used in refrigeration and a turbine has never been the discussed topic now has it?  A closed loop system does not matter, what fluid you use as long as it has a phase change at the desired low temperatures.  Keep moving those goal posts.  Way up thread I already said, the only way to get around the precipitation aspect of geothermal was a 2nd heat exchanger.  Appears I have to quote myself.

On 8/3/2019 at 8:04 AM, Wastral said:

One can reasonably argue that MOST geothermal plants require an intermediary heat exchanger due to mineral precipitation which brings on the next problem: Maintenance.  Here is the rub:  Even if you DO have sufficient warmth because your ass is parked on a super volcano you hope never blows up, the volcano in question is often, if not always, VERY high in barium, arsenic, cadmium, etc before one even talks about the common pests, calcium, zinc, etc.  In short, you turn into a mining operation of worthless and highly COSTLY POISONous minerals.

As for reactivity: NFPA.....  Or you could just read the NFPA... " AMMONIA is a base. Reacts exothermically with all acids. "... what is the ground lousy with?  Alkali metals and acids.  So, if you wish to purify the ground of everything on the left and right side of the periodic table so you can use NH3... ok.

PS: I shouldn't have used the word oxidizer(obviously it has no oxygen in its make-up)  Sue me, I am an engineer and not a chemist. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

59 minutes ago, Wastral said:

Dear sir, the object is HEAT TRANSFER to generate power and why ZERO geothermal plants use a closed loop piped system.  The basics of geothermal operations: dear sir, you pump UP from one location and pump DOWN in another location a LONG ways away allowing the water to spread out through a LARGE surface area to collect heat before being sucked back up.  A pipe has a miniscule surface area and why no one does closed loop geothermal other than for shallow depth residential heating.  Why?  Engineers spending their own $$$ aren't stupid. 

Ammonia as used in refrigeration and a turbine has never been the discussed topic now has it?  A closed loop system does not matter, what fluid you use as long as it has a phase change at the desired low temperatures.  Keep moving those goal posts.  Way up thread I already said, the only way to get around the precipitation aspect of geothermal was a 2nd heat exchanger.  Appears I have to quote myself.

As for reactivity: NFPA.....  Or you could just read the NFPA... " AMMONIA is a base. Reacts exothermically with all acids. "... what is the ground lousy with?  Alkali metals and acids.  So, if you wish to purify the ground of everything on the left and right side of the periodic table so you can use NH3... ok.

PS: I shouldn't have used the word oxidizer(obviously it has no oxygen in its make-up)  Sue me, I am an engineer and not a chemist. 

 Ammonia is a base in solution, as in: dissolved in water. It creates OH ions, and that's why it's technically classified as a base. Pure ammonia is not a base. 

Also, the correction you made regarding oxidation is still wrong, oxidation has nothing to do with oxygen, it refers to electron transfer resulting in a particular state of an ion. I will not explain the rest.

Honestly it doesn't matter, I don't expect you to spend a ton of time learning about chemistry since it's not related to your field. Let's get into the engineering details, since that's where your expertise lies. 

I understand the need for a heat exchanger. I'm suggesting that both the turbine loop and the ground loop both contain the substance because of ammonia's ideal thermochemical properties. Shouldn't the surface area of a pipe be irrelevant because the loop can be made to stay underground for a longer period of time, perhaps traveling back and forth, to ensure that the heat medium has adequate exposure to the temperatures below ground? As for the pumping, I'm pretty sure the surface pump would be greatly assisted by gravity, and would thus only be pulling the fluid from below. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

6 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

 Let's get into the engineering details, since that's where your expertise lies. 

You are incorrect.  The man claims he works at Boeing, although vague on responsibilities there.  Nothing to do with oil, or geothermal, or anything else. He is constantly trolling the site. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 8/4/2019 at 7:22 PM, Jan van Eck said:

You are incorrect.  The man claims he works at Boeing, although vague on responsibilities there.  Nothing to do with oil, or geothermal, or anything else. He is constantly trolling the site. 

Given that he hasn't responded since I DID enter that department, I'd say you're probably correct. Or he's just tired of me. Either or. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:26 PM, shadowkin said:

Sweden introduced on Thursday a threefold tax on fossil fuels at local power plants with aim of spurring a shift to renewable energy.

While Sweden doesn’t have a shortage of power, there’s not enough cables to ship it to the biggest cities.

“We don’t have a problem with generating enough power in Sweden, we have a problem with getting it to where its needed,” Magnus Hall, chief executive officer of state-owned utility Vattenfall AB, said in an interview. “This law was added with short notice and I am not sure a proper analysis of it was made.”

Because of the urbanization, demand for electricity in many Swedish cities is starting to outgrow capacity and some have already been forced to refuse new connections to avoid black outs.

“Combined heat and power plants must carry their own cost to the environment, even if they have an important role to play for the supply of energy,” Anders Ygeman, minister for energy and digitalization, said in an emailed statement. “The tax will contribute to the ongoing away shift from fossil fuels.”

Ygeman said it is still too early to say what impact the new tax will have, but there are already examples of its impact. Some new daycare centers have to wait for months to be connected to the grid in Stockholm. A bread factory in Malmo was denied a license to expand because it would consume too much power.

It seems the biggest issue is the highlighted part - insuffiecient power-cable infrastructure. Not actually the price of electricity.