Tom Kirkman

'No - Deal Brexit' vs 'Operation Fear' Globalist Pushback ... Impact to World Economies and Oil

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4 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Absolutely.  But then I wasn't speaking of our laws which we do indeed have the power to change.  I can also affect those laws through campaigns / voting etc.

What I cannot affect are all the rules the EU hands down from on high, we cannot pick and choose what EU rules we follow.  Apologies if I was not clear.

Your remark regarding tax havens is a little irrelevant, whether Brexit completes with a no deal, or a deal, or if there is a second referendum, there will always be tax havens they can put their money in.  The likes of Amazon and Starbucks are just as capable of it as any politician or movie star or footballer.

I understand where you come from.

But how can any organisation survive if its members only stick to those rules they like and ignore all others. Can you just ignore and break UK laws because you dislike it ? You can not, otherwise you will be sued.

The video says that the EU members want to close the tax havens in the EU in near time. If the UK would stay in the EU this would cause financial losses for the ultrarich in UK, which have avoided to pay their fair taxes to the benefit of the middle class and the poor so far.

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So Kit you "have a high IQ (tested)". How insecure must you be to get your IQ tested?.

Fact- Brexit voters are on average (now there will be millions of exceptions like your self, Boris, Jacob etc)

Less well educated

Less likely to own their own homes and live on council estates (that means living on projects for you in the US),

Less likely to be medium /high earners and more likely to be on benefits (welfare)

Less likely to be in good health and more likely to use the National Health Service

Less likely to send their children to private schools and more likely to use state schools

More likely to have criminal records, drink or drug problems and be racist, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, homophobic-

Until recently they would have been anti-Semitic as well but amongst uber UK patriots, Jews are now considered pretty cool because they now see Israel as an ally of the Christian world.

So if you wish to ally yourself with this unpleasant bunch of losers and scoungers that's your choice but most people with brains voted Remain.,

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I am so curious to see what happens after no deal Brexit, I just can't wait when it happens. A lot of memes will be produced. But noone will feel ashamed as always someone else is guilty for this or that kind of s***. We will see wars in social media. Only this time instead of predictions we will see hard facts.
So, will we all die, or Brexit will go by unnoticed?

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(edited)

Nick, I would be very interested in seeing the source of your data.  Those are quite radical statements and must have been researched?

 

9 minutes ago, DocManfred said:

But how can any organisation survive if its members only stick to those rules they like and ignore all others.

Yes - absolutely.  We can't do that, so in order to not have to follow any EU rules we can leave.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick Lilley said:

How insecure must you be to get your IQ tested?.

Please, I asked nicely not to be insulted.  Surely you are an adult and have some manners?  Your comment did make me laugh though.  I was simply curious how intelligent I measured.  It does not cost anything to take the test, why not try it?

Edited by Kit Moore

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4 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Nick, I would be very interested in seeing the source of your data.  Those are quite radical statements and must have been researched?

 

Yes - absolutely.  We can't do that, so in order to not have to follow any EU rules we can leave.

 

Please, I asked nicely not to be insulted.  Surely you are an adult and have some manners?  Your comment did make me laugh though.  I was simply curious how intelligent I measured.  It does not cost anything to take the test, why not try it?

Seems UK will leave the EU on October 31st 2019 and it will have to follow rules, most probably the WTO rules.

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2 minutes ago, DocManfred said:

most probably the WTO rules

Who knows.  The plan is to have rules / deals we've written ourselves and agreed to, and can amend in the future.  It will no longer be a case of 'these are the rules, follow them'.

I have to admit, we live in interesting times, and no doubt there will be more developments before the October deadline!

Edited by Kit Moore

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We won't be leaving the EU Kit.

That's because the power, the money, the CBI and everyone with brains are going to prevent it because we have the brains to organize. The Brexiteer lobby can't even arrange a march with more than a few thousand people attending (and then usually fighting with police) we on the other than can pull in hundreds of thousands. We'll see what happens on the 31st October.

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2 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Who knows.  The plan is to have rules / deals we've written ourselves and agreed to, and can amend in the future.  It will no longer be a case of 'these are the rules, follow them'.

I have to admit, we live in interesting times, and no doubt there will be more developments before the October deadline!

UK can not write the WTO rules - it did contribute in the past and can contribute with others in the futues in order to modify it.

UK is also one of the authors of the EU rules and had always the opportunity to work on amendments. As I have written above:

Any European regulation is made in a democratic process and the national governments, and even the regional governments of any of the 28 nations, had and has the right to influence or refuse proposals made by "Brussels". So it is amazing if people in UK or any other EU member state believe that Brussels made or makes their laws. That is not true. None of these laws would have become reality if the government and the parliament of these states would have complained or vetoed.

It is just blaming the EU for unpopular decissions or results which are the outcome of own political faults (e.g. missing industrial and structural policies in order to compensate the impacts of globalisation in the rust belts).

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1 minute ago, Nick Lilley said:

We'll see what happens on the 31st October

Before that point even, as on 1 November (as things currently stand) we will have left the EU by default.

We may well never leave the EU, or we may have another referendum, or there may be a deal.....like I said, interesting times, and plenty of time for change.

However, at the very least I would not agree with a straight up cancellation of the whole thing, I do feel that would not be following the vote.  Should this be on the cards I think a second referendum would be the way to go.  People know a lot more and may well change their vote.  Many will not.  The new vote may give you the Remain result you prefer.  My point is simply cancelling without another vote would be undemocratic.

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15 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Please, I asked nicely not to be insulted.  Surely you are an adult and have some manners?  Your comment did make me laugh though.  I was simply curious how intelligent I measured.  It does not cost anything to take the test, why not try it?

The comment is charged sure, but I dont think he has insulted you. If you see the discussion as an external observer, if a person that does not spend time reading The Sun or The Mail (etc), it does sound very weird to see a written statement by presumably a serious adult that his/her IQ is high (tested). Albeit I have the feeling that this site overall and this terrible thread more specifically flop aggressively towards "tabloidism" so not sure exactly how high is the ante of certain readers.. 

On a different note, after so many debates and discussions with associates and colleagues, I still find it mentally disturbing when people in the UK talk about the undemocratic structure (bother voting first in EU elections) and the famous laws and stipulations that the sovereign state has to receive from the EU.. Could you pls name few EU laws that negatively affect sovereignty, personal liberty, freedom of expression or political directions in the UK, especially such laws that would affect the life of the average man that, very spuriously, the Brexit political side pretends to protect? After all, pls tell me honestly if u have kids were do u want them to grow up in The Netherlands, Finland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Luxembourg, et al, or in the USA? Is personal liberty and an environment to better ones self better protected in continental europe or in UK/USA   

 

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16 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

However, at the very least I would not agree with a straight up cancellation of the whole thing, I do feel that would not be following the vote.  Should this be on the cards I think a second referendum would be the way to go.  People know a lot more and may well change their vote.  Many will not.  The new vote may give you the Remain result you prefer.  My point is simply cancelling without another vote would be undemocratic.

I totally agree. The UK should go as voted and quick. I was wholeheartedly supporting the stance of Macron back on the 29th of March! Not out of spite but because this is how things are. The UK and its association with american populists is only harmful to the EU. This needs to end. 

I believe that there are only very few countries (if any) with the political, social, liberal, humanist and educational culture of (most) europeans nations (generalisations are dangerous apologies). The UK simply does not fit to many of the european ideals. It is a country of not only financial but also  strong political and social inequality. If you read The Prince (by N. Machiavelli), the concept of Machiavellian "ruled" and "rulers" feels so applicable to the compact majority of the british electorate. I find it very sad that in a country (UK) that has offered enormously, especially in important sectors such as science, the vast majority of people remain really poorly educated, apolitical and as a consequence they are being politically and socially molested by the very machiavellian ruling class using aggressive populism delivered by terrible newspapers, news outlets and plenty of Panem et Circenses (football, love islands etc etc etc).  

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Apologies for the confusion regarding my IQ - I stated it to demonstrate that I wasn't a semi-illiterate idiot, but I see how it may have come across as weird!

EU law takes precedence over any National law - see below link and in particular "Community law penetrates inside the legal systems of Member States and takes precedence over all national laws in the courts of the Member States"

https://lawyersforbritain.org/brexit-legal-guide/eu-law-and-the-ecj/eu-law-the-ecj-and-primacy-over-national-laws

I don't have children and I don't have a passport so have not experienced what it would be like to bring up children in a country other than the UK.  To be fair, I have no problem with my children (if I ever have any) growing up in the UK.

Let me give you another reason I voted out: The membership fee.  The link below shows what we pay / receive and it is clear we lose more than we gain in financial terms.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

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1 minute ago, Kit Moore said:

I don't have children and I don't have a passport so have not experienced what it would be like to bring up children in a country other than the UK.  To be fair, I have no problem with my children (if I ever have any) growing up in the UK.

Let me give you another reason I voted out: The membership fee.  The link below shows what we pay / receive and it is clear we lose more than we gain in financial terms.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

Note pls I mentioned USA mainly vs Europe for bringing up children. It would be really interesting if you crossed the channel to see "this and that" around Europe. We might not have the same discussion.. Although I am a supporter of understanding people based on intelligence, education (assuming someone is not a monkey; there are many tho) is far more important. Education makes us think based on reason, logic and actual facts right?

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(edited)

32 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Let me give you another reason I voted out: The membership fee.  The link below shows what we pay / receive and it is clear we lose more than we gain in financial terms.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Here is a common argument, I think completely misinterpreted.. The amount of money is around £130 per person in the UK per year.. A bit more than a tenner a month.. I think if you spend sometime understanding how the economy works, I mean the real nitty-gritty of trade, science, innovation, exchange of expertise, setting up companies home and abroad, i.e. economy outside the realms of bronze-age trade, you will soon realise that this club fee is not that crazy.. People spend average ~£60 for alcoholic drinks per month per person (not sure if just adult but just as an indication).. A Sun or DM reader should spend around £20-30 per month to read pure trash.. I know simplistic but might help.. Not to mention the amounts spend on TV subscriptions etc etc.. When u receive (last chance) your HMRC end of year breakdown u might notice how much you personally contributed to the EU.. U might also want to visit places in the UK that receive hefty funding from the EU to develop (there are endless examples) plus the money received in science and innovation funding in prestigious UK universities, innovative start-ups and SMEs.. Anyway, the argument is lost by default if you think that saving this 9bil per year does not offset other specific income opportunities that emerge through trade, cooperation and innovation..

Edited by Alex Palamas
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Could you please confirm your sources?

Membership fee - £132,000,000,000 (including rebate)
UK citizens - 66,000,000
Cost per citizen - £2,000

With regards to EU funding:

The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall.  In 2017, the UK's ‘public sector receipts’ are estimated to be £4.3 billion.

Yes I admit this doesn't include specific income opportunities that emerge through trade, cooperation and innovation. 

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(edited)

8 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Could you please confirm your sources?

Membership fee - £132,000,000,000 (including rebate)
UK citizens - 66,000,000
Cost per citizen - £2,000

With regards to EU funding:

The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall.  In 2017, the UK's ‘public sector receipts’ are estimated to be £4.3 billion.

Yes I admit this doesn't include specific income opportunities that emerge through trade, cooperation and innovation. 

Your source.. My friend, what are u saying here? Memb fee is ~13bil not 130bil. Then there is ~4bil coming back, this is EU structural funds which also contains around 1bil per year in science sector , mainly grants for primary and clinical research (not private company RnD expenditure).Thus UK contribution ~9bil. If u divide this by 67mil (9,000,000,000 / 67,000,000) = £134 per head per year......... 

I did not even have to go far. Your source which is legit contained the money above! How can u misinterpret the maths so so badly man? :) :) 

Edited by Alex Palamas
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Hang on, let me match my face to my hand a moment and try that again!!  Back in a sec....

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Membership fee - £13,200,000,000 (including rebate)
UK citizens - 66,000,000
Cost per citizen - £200

Now if you take into account there are only about 36 million people of working age, that brings the total cost to £366 per person.

I've got to scoot of (sorry, hurrying as I've got a train to catch).  Will catch up properly tomorrow

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(edited)

12 minutes ago, Kit Moore said:

Membership fee - £13,200,000,000 (including rebate)
UK citizens - 66,000,000
Cost per citizen - £200

Now if you take into account there are only about 36 million people of working age, that brings the total cost to £366 per person.

I've got to scoot of (sorry, hurrying as I've got a train to catch).  Will catch up properly tomorrow

My friend again:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/united-kingdom-population/

67,5mil but i aint mind 66mil..

UK net contribution to EU is 9bil not 13,2bil since over 4bil IS SPENT BY EU to the UK..

Also Around 12.5mil kids and thus 55mil people that can pay (workers and retirees), thus if u want the calculation more specific 9,000,000,000 / 55,000,000 = £163.6 per paying person per year

 

Edited by Alex Palamas
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1 hour ago, Alex Palamas said:

My friend again:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/united-kingdom-population/

67,5mil but i aint mind 66mil..

UK net contribution to EU is 9bil not 13,2bil since over 4bil IS SPENT BY EU to the UK..

Also Around 12.5mil kids and thus 55mil people that can pay (workers and retirees), thus if u want the calculation more specific 9,000,000,000 / 55,000,000 = £163.6 per paying person per year

 

Can we just call it £100 each and Junker and the MEPS have to take a pay cut ?

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On 8/21/2019 at 3:45 PM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Do you know what this tweet was about? 

Rasmus,

Yes I think so after listening to Nigel banging on about it for an hour or so on the radio. My point was he says we now have control of our passports but the British company who bid to produce them for us lost the contract and we gave it to a French company as they were a little bit cheaper. As the pound has now tanked against the Euro I suspect the French company is no longer cheaper. 

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Auson said:

Can we just call it £100 each and Junker and the MEPS have to take a pay cut ?

Agreed, these are well paid animals, but there we are spot on when I speak about the hardcore Machiavellian UK society and the lack of apprehension and self-reflection on what is going on outside of the smiley doors and gardens of the estates ..

So some numbers that can be found easily in legit online public bodies:

750 EU MEPs = ~£70mil/year

650 UK MPs = ~£51mil/year

800 UK Lords = ~£68mil/year

UK Sovereign grant to unelected blood-line derived royals = ~£76mil (2017/2018)

Best Paid CEOs last year pay-packs in UK, sure some really socially valuable companies feature here:

- CEO Bet365 (amazing social value right?) = ~£265mil/year (1st)

- CEO Sky (J. Darroch; again socially important) = £16.3mil (5th)

- CEO Coca Cola (hahahaaaaa) = £13.8mil (8th)

- CEO British American Tobacco (N. Durante; light me up baby!!) = £11.4mil (10th)

 

average UK nurse salary ~30k

average UK scientist with PhD salary ~35k..

 

Apologies in advance for potential inaccuracies, doing some work as well.. Happy to be disputed

Edited by Alex Palamas

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3 hours ago, Nick Lilley said:

We won't be leaving the EU Kit.

That's because the power, the money, the CBI and everyone with brains are going to prevent it because we have the brains to organize. The Brexiteer lobby can't even arrange a march with more than a few thousand people attending (and then usually fighting with police) we on the other than can pull in hundreds of thousands. We'll see what happens on the 31st October.

Just because the non brexiteers are politically active doesn't make them better. Organising marches is a useless job and requires lot of resources in terms of wage loss, food and refreshments for those marching and so on. This doesn't prove competence in any way. The common people are not very rich to afford this and hence don't do it. The only method common people can exercise their will is by doing something quick and easy so as to not suffer from logistical deficit. Generally, this means "revolution". So, unless you want to push common people to the corner and make them even more angry, you are better off simply agreeing to Brexit.

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(edited)

49 minutes ago, kshithij Sharma said:

Just because the non brexiteers are politically active doesn't make them better. Organising marches is a useless job and requires lot of resources in terms of wage loss, food and refreshments for those marching and so on. This doesn't prove competence in any way. The common people are not very rich to afford this and hence don't do it. The only method common people can exercise their will is by doing something quick and easy so as to not suffer from logistical deficit. Generally, this means "revolution". So, unless you want to push common people to the corner and make them even more angry, you are better off simply agreeing to Brexit.

Kshithij I think you could perhaps study a little bit further the UK social stratification.. First, I guess it is hard to dispute (happy tho) that the Brexit social fraction is far more fanaticised, aggressive, rude, abrasive, sometimes you might call certain supporters thuggish, not all just some.. If you don't believe me why don't you try to check (easy to do) the exact numbers of millions (around 6mil, not including the exact online stats - hardcore underestimation here) that read the most popular newspapers in UK, The Sun and The Daily Mail? Have u perhaps noted the quality, tone and approach towards Brexit from these media? Would you say that they are mildly written, polite and elegant? What kind of people do you think read these? Or perhaps u think this is all laughs and banter (another typical feature of the Panem et circuses society..)? 

Nevertheless, these simple people u talk about, the compact majority, the lumpen maybe, the ruled masses are pushed yes, totally agree with you, but not sure who pushes them.. Not sure the average doctor, scientist, nurse, engineer or student pushes the unfortunate little man of Britain.. If the little person knew what is going on would have perhaps revolted (not sure if UK people would truly revolt given their extreme and compulsive trust to their populist Rulers).. Plus do u really standby your statement that going for a March is a matter of affording it, while just look the endless masses of people flocking in football stadia or running amok in pubs and parks when teams win a trophy??..

Totally agree with u tho, UK needs to come out of EU, damage is done, too much damage, we all need to collect our bits and move on..

 

Edited by Alex Palamas

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9 hours ago, Nick Lilley said:

Fact- Brexit voters are on average (now there will be millions of exceptions like your self, Boris, Jacob etc)

Less well educated

Less likely to own their own homes and live on council estates (that means living on projects for you in the US),

Less likely to be medium /high earners and more likely to be on benefits (welfare)

Less likely to be in good health and more likely to use the National Health Service

Less likely to send their children to private schools and more likely to use state schools

More likely to have criminal records, drink or drug problems and be racist, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, homophobic-

Until recently they would have been anti-Semitic as well but amongst uber UK patriots, Jews are now considered pretty cool because they now see Israel as an ally of the Christian world.

So if you wish to ally yourself with this unpleasant bunch of losers and scoungers that's your choice but most people with brains voted Remain.,

Moderator note: probably a good idea to be careful with generalizations of people who disagree with you.  Sounds like another "basket of deplorables" dismissal of opposing viewpoints.

Good-natured, humorous mocking is something I do frequently (although I tend to be easily amused by absurdities, so I'm a poor example).

But generally running down and disparaging anyone who chooses to have a different viewpoint is probably not going to win anyone over to one's side, or coax anyone to be willing to consider different viewpoints.

A bit of humor goes much farther than a pint of piss and vinegar.

 

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