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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

https://www.ibj.com/articles/trump-orders-biofuel-boost-in-bid-to-temper-farm-state-anger

Trump orders biofuel boost in bid to temper farm state anger

When you consider Trump will turn 180 degrees on a sixpence and you take a look at the 2016 electoral map you'd think Trump would have been consistently pro biofuels & wind (irrespective of what he might think privately). 

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(edited)

He does not oppose wind or biofuels. The oil industry hates ethanol though. It is a competitor as is wind. They prefer to pretend to support wind and solar IMHO. It gives them some relief from the green extremists. Trump is supporting biofuels to compensate for the Chinese strike against our farmers and has been all along. 

Edited by ronwagn
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14 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

He does not oppose wind or biofuels. The oil industry hates ethanol though. It is a competitor as is wind. They prefer to pretend to support wind and solar IMHO. It gives them some relief from the green extremists. Trump is supporting biofuels to compensate for the Chinese strike against our farmers and has been all along. 

He made some pretty silly comments about wind power causing cancer etc although I agree he hasn't actually done anything to stop wind development. I assume the silly comments are largely a ploy to play to a certain section of his voter base. 

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 The trade war with China was obviously going to cause some pain and suffering, temporarily, to various segments of American industry, farming being one of those segments.

I have little empathy for those farmers who would rather continue the status quo with China at the expense of American industry as a whole while at the same time the government is mandating ethanol be blended with gasoline thereby raising the price of gasoline for all Americans and forcing the rest of Americans to subsidize the corn industry.

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Your game is oil, I understand that. But look at other Americans fate also. Ethanol is potentially less expensive than gasoline, and helps farmers. It also is needed for safe octane boost. 

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My F150 runs on corn but even though it's cheaper than oil (by the gallon) the mpg and power sucks, no thanks, I'll stick with oil.

2014-ford-f-150-xlt_21.png

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42 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Your game is oil, I understand that. But look at other Americans fate also. Ethanol is potentially less expensive than gasoline, and helps farmers. It also is needed for safe octane boost. 

It is my understanding that ethanol and the like is needed as an additive for petrol to overcome issues that use to be dealt with by adding lead - no argument there -  but its never been seen as a serious competitor to petrol for the simple reason that it is not possible to produce enough to take significant market share. That said, with the help of subsidies and mandates it has taken chunks of market in the US and Brazil, the other big ethanol producer, with much of the effort dating from the time when governments were genuinely concerned the world might run out of oil. Now, the main use of ethanol production is to give farmers being squeezed out of the food markets something to produce, and so keep them happy and voting for politicians who want to remain in power. Much less is heard about ethanol in Australia because farmers here compete quite handily on international food markets.    

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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Ethanol is potentially less expensive

 

5 minutes ago, fozzir said:

My F150 runs on corn but even though it's cheaper than oil (by the gallon) the mpg and power sucks

Oh yes, and you'll probably find that the cost difference is due to the difference in taxes - ethanol would be taxed quite different to oil.. I know in Australia, and more so in Europe, when you buy petrol you are basically paying tax. The price of the fuel is incidental. 

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34 minutes ago, markslawson said:

 

Oh yes, and you'll probably find that the cost difference is due to the difference in taxes - ethanol would be taxed quite different to oil.. I know in Australia, and more so in Europe, when you buy petrol you are basically paying tax. The price of the fuel is incidental. 

 

34 minutes ago, markslawson said:

 

Oh yes, and you'll probably find that the cost difference is due to the difference in taxes - ethanol would be taxed quite different to oil.. I know in Australia, and more so in Europe, when you buy petrol you are basically paying tax. The price of the fuel is incidental. 

I use ethanol blends in my one vehicle that is designed for it but only when it is marked down to an equal price trying to figure in the lower MPG. It is a great and clean octane booster though. The best I know of. 

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2 hours ago, markslawson said:

in Europe, when you buy petrol you are basically paying tax. The price of the fuel is incidental. 

Yep the cost is a joke here.

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10 hours ago, ronwagn said:

 

I use ethanol blends in my one vehicle that is designed for it but only when it is marked down to an equal price trying to figure in the lower MPG. It is a great and clean octane booster though. The best I know of. 

At 5-10% I agree its a good clean octane booster. Anymore and the economics become dubious.

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(edited)

18 hours ago, ronwagn said:

 Trump is supporting biofuels to compensate for the Chinese strike against our farmers and has been all along

I'm fairly sure he was planning on letting them reduce the amount of ethanol.  I can't read that article (paywall).

So first get the oil votes then switch to get some farm votes - but the changes will only come after the election. #brokenpromise

Edited by Enthalpic

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1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm fairly sure he was planning on letting them reduce the amount of ethanol.  I can't read that article (paywall).

So first get the oil votes then switch to get some farm votes - but the changes will only come after the election. #brokenpromise

No, he is supporting a 15% ethanol blend rather than the current 10%. If it is enacted I doubt it will go back to the 10%. Marketability is an issue though. There is a lot of oil industry propaganda that shows their fear of ethanol competition. Billions of dollars of oil profits are at stake. 

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(edited)

5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

No, he is supporting a 15% ethanol blend rather than the current 10%. If it is enacted I doubt it will go back to the 10%. Marketability is an issue though. There is a lot of oil industry propaganda that shows their fear of ethanol competition. Billions of dollars of oil profits are at stake. 

Now he says that, but just last month he handed out 31 exemptions allowing no ethanol.  He is clearly trying to play both sides here.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/457706-trump-directive-ended-review-of-ethanol-requirements-report

"Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) review of the nation’s biofuel program, according to a Friday report from Reuters, a move that had the president siding with refineries over corn growers.

Last Friday, the EPA granted 31 exemptions to small refineries across the country, giving them a pass on blending ethanol into gasoline.

But sources told Reuters the decision signals a bigger shift within the Trump administration to favor the oil and gas sector over farmers, a group that has already been hit hard by Trump’s tariff war with China."

Edited by Enthalpic
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2 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Now he says that, but just last month he handed out 31 exemptions allowing no ethanol.  He is clearly trying to play both sides here.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/457706-trump-directive-ended-review-of-ethanol-requirements-report

"Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) review of the nation’s biofuel program, according to a Friday report from Reuters, a move that had the president siding with refineries over corn growers.

Last Friday, the EPA granted 31 exemptions to small refineries across the country, giving them a pass on blending ethanol into gasoline.

But sources told Reuters the decision signals a bigger shift within the Trump administration to favor the oil and gas sector over farmers, a group that has already been hit hard by Trump’s tariff war with China."

That is true. 

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(edited)

6 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

That is true. 

That's on top of 54 other refineries that already had exemptions.

So make the law 15% but give all refineries an exemption to the new rule. Oil guys are happy, farmers think they will gain but actually don't. 

Perception is all that matters.

Edited by Enthalpic

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5 hours ago, NickW said:

At 5-10% I agree its a good clean octane booster. Anymore and the economics become dubious.

Don't forget that ethanol only became popular when we were in the middle of the last "energy crisis" and the oil industry ramped up fracking. I believe they knew they had the oil, but were just enjoying the high prices.That "energy crisis" is what motivated me to study energy for nine years now. See World Full of Energy https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I-xdOkQuBJMneR_HH5BDtWICco8hMkTD7aoHOwt6fDI/edit

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16 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I have little empathy for those farmers who would rather continue the status quo with China at the expense of American industry as a whole while at the same time the government is mandating ethanol be blended with gasoline thereby raising the price of gasoline for all Americans and forcing the rest of Americans to subsidize the corn industry.

I have empathy, but don't worry. Rest assured, the rural areas support Trump and they resonate the anti-government.  Remember massive direct aide is being given for corn and soybean growers to help insulate from the trade war.

As far as the farmers themselves, remember only a couple of a million people work in the business, and from my personal observations, a lot of them are folks hiding in the shadows, they can't vote and avoid authority rather than risk. 

I suspect every farmer could vote anti-Trump and the votes wouldn't matter. The message and image  of losing farmers might matter. Trump understands those things far better we do. Not a big fan of Willie Nelson, but learn about his save the American farmer movement, which he has been at since the 80s, if you are worried about the family farmer. I don't follow the movement and haven't for years. I suspect weed is causing a minor recovery for some farmers.

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25 minutes ago, John Foote said:

I have empathy, but don't worry. Rest assured, the rural areas support Trump and they resonate the anti-government.  Remember massive direct aide is being given for corn and soybean growers to help insulate from the trade war.

As far as the farmers themselves, remember only a couple of a million people work in the business, and from my personal observations, a lot of them are folks hiding in the shadows, they can't vote and avoid authority rather than risk. 

I suspect every farmer could vote anti-Trump and the votes wouldn't matter. The message and image  of losing farmers might matter. Trump understands those things far better we do. Not a big fan of Willie Nelson, but learn about his save the American farmer movement, which he has been at since the 80s, if you are worried about the family farmer. I don't follow the movement and haven't for years. I suspect weed is causing a minor recovery for some farmers.

A lot of good statistics and graphs about farm income by size of farm, types of crops, and other agricultural sectors. 

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/farming-and-farm-income/

Most farmers receive off-farm income, but small-scale operators depend on it

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(edited)

45 minutes ago, John Foote said:

I have empathy, but don't worry. Rest assured, the rural areas support Trump and they resonate the anti-government.  Remember massive direct aide is being given for corn and soybean growers to help insulate from the trade war.

 

Silicon valley tax dollars going into a socialistic wealth transfer and vote buy

People here think google and facebook are left-leaning evil but love the money!

Edited by Enthalpic

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So only Silicon Valley tax dollars? Doubtful.

I thought the Silicon Valley tax dollars were used to float the socialistic welfare programs of the California boat. You know, free needles, illegal immigration, sanctuary cities, the 9th Circuit Court, etc...

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