TomTom

World’s Longest Elevator Could Trigger New Commodity Race

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I wonder if something like this is worth investing in... I guess if they can bring the costs down to build something like this, we could actually bring helium 3 to Earth.

Rare earth elements and helium are just some of the resources scientists believe are abundant on the Moon. The problem is how to get them here. Rockets are not cost-efficient, otherwise we would have already colonized our natural satellite. Yet there is an alternative to rockets and it might have just got doable: a lunar elevator. 

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Worlds-Longest-Elevator-Could-Trigger-New-Commodity-Race.html

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Sorry to be a wet blanket on this neat idea, but I suspect the reason it would be a failure flows from yet another man-made issue: the total amount of "space junk" floating about at these altitudes.  What has happened is that various satellites have been used as target practice by the Chinese in the past, and upon shredding them with a rocket and warhead, an explosion of parts and pieces are now up there.  Those metal shards will act as scythes to anything that is stationary in the rotating orbit, be it a cable elevator, a space station, or another rocket passing through on the way to Mars  (to drop me off after my diplomatic posting here is completed). (OK, you need to read the other thread about that to get the joke.) 

But seriously, in order to do an elevator cable (which does pass muster from a physics point of view) you would first have to go figure out a way to scoop up all that space junk.  And to keep the Chinese from shooting up more old satellites with their rockets  (which they have promised, but I remain unconvinced).  That is a daunting project.  A bit like cleaning up the Great Pacific Ocean Gyre; you would need a gigantic space net with fine wire spacing and a mechanism to centrally collect all the scooped-up stuff.  All together, a daunting task.

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18 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sorry to be a wet blanket on this neat idea, but I suspect the reason it would be a failure flows from yet another man-made issue: the total amount of "space junk" floating about at these altitudes.  What has happened is that various satellites have been used as target practice by the Chinese in the past, and upon shredding them with a rocket and warhead, an explosion of parts and pieces are now up there.  Those metal shards will act as scythes to anything that is stationary in the rotating orbit, be it a cable elevator, a space station, or another rocket passing through on the way to Mars  (to drop me off after my diplomatic posting here is completed). (OK, you need to read the other thread about that to get the joke.) 

But seriously, in order to do an elevator cable (which does pass muster from a physics point of view) you would first have to go figure out a way to scoop up all that space junk.  And to keep the Chinese from shooting up more old satellites with their rockets  (which they have promised, but I remain unconvinced).  That is a daunting project.  A bit like cleaning up the Great Pacific Ocean Gyre; you would need a gigantic space net with fine wire spacing and a mechanism to centrally collect all the scooped-up stuff.  All together, a daunting task.

The USA blew up the first satellite.  India has done so as well. 

The Elevator is postulated on the MOON, not earth

And every nation has an ASAT program who also have a long range missile program...

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(edited)

Ooh is this the downvote thread?

Edgey.

 

Edited by DayTrader
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3 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Ooh is this the downvote thread?

It is now.

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"Colonel Pitts is a man of limited combat experience."

"Apparently no longer."

It was in the movie.

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I'll have to check this out

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17 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

It is now.

Down votes happens when everything you posted was wrong, ill informed, or could have been picked up if you had bothered to read the article before posting. 

Oh yea.... We have no known material we can manufacture we could make a space elevator out of on earth.  The moon?  No problem.  Exit velocity is very low. 

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< waves at Irina Slav >   (author of the article, who will prolly be lurking this thread)

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(edited)

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Oh yea.... We have no known material we can manufacture we could make a space elevator out of on earth.  The moon?  No problem.  Exit velocity is very low. 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2170193/china-has-strongest-fibre-can-haul-160-elephants-and-space 

They have patented the technology last year.  The cables would need to have tensile strength – to withstand stretching – of no less than 7 gigapascals, according to Nasa. China says their latest carbon nanotube fibre has tensile strength of 80 gigapascals.

Edited by Hotone
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11 minutes ago, Hotone said:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2170193/china-has-strongest-fibre-can-haul-160-elephants-and-space 

They have patented the technology last year.  The cables would need to have tensile strength – to withstand stretching – of no less than 7 gigapascals, according to Nasa. China says their latest carbon nanotube fibre has tensile strength of 80 gigapascals.

Nothing new here.  Said carbon nanotubes have been around for many decades.  Let me quote myself, "No known material we can MANUFACTURE we could make a space elevator out of on earth".   A singular wall, very short nanotube does no one any good.  Has to at least be long enough to bundle/braid it, then we have something. Until then... this is nothing but Chinese researchers going down same rabbit hole previous researchers have gone.  WHO knows, maybe they can make longer nanotubes, rapidly, and in a cost efficient manner.  I won't hold my breath. 

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21 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Down votes happens when everything you posted was wrong, ill informed, or could have been picked up if you had bothered to read the article before posting. 

Oh yea.... We have no known material we can manufacture we could make a space elevator out of on earth.  The moon?  No problem.  Exit velocity is very low. 

Even if the space elevator is anchored on the moon, the article clearly states:

"By extending a line, anchored on the moon, to deep within Earth’s gravity well"

"build a cable extending to close to the height of geostationary orbit"

"satellites orbiting the Earth could collide with the cable"

All three of these seem to make @Jan van Eck's statement :ahem: correct, well informed, and relevant to the article discussed.

May I suggest double checking yourself before you pick a fight with one of the most knowledgable guys on the form? (I disagree with Jan with some regularity, but man, I would take a serious moment to think before ever calling him 'wrong' or 'ill informed'.)

 

But what do I know? I only read the article...

(oh, and used to work on satellites, but that hardly seems relevant here when all the information is so readily available)

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Otis11 said:

I would take a serious moment to think before ever calling him 'wrong' or 'ill informed'.

Pfff, Jan is clueless about most topics from what I've seen. 

Especially 'cheese', if you can even call it that. 

And he has some kind of Star Wars problem. 

 

 

Edited by DayTrader
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3 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Pfff, Jan is clueless about most topics from what I've seen.

I speculate you have been talking with my staff.  

They are the most fervid advancers of that line of thinking.

 

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4 hours ago, Otis11 said:

Even if the space elevator is anchored on the moon, the article clearly states:

"By extending a line, anchored on the moon, to deep within Earth’s gravity well"

"build a cable extending to close to the height of geostationary orbit"

"satellites orbiting the Earth could collide with the cable"

All three of these seem to make @Jan van Eck's statement :ahem: correct, well informed, and relevant to the article discussed.

May I suggest double checking yourself before you pick a fight with one of the most knowledgable guys on the form? (I disagree with Jan with some regularity, but man, I would take a serious moment to think before ever calling him 'wrong' or 'ill informed'.)

 

But what do I know? I only read the article...

(oh, and used to work on satellites, but that hardly seems relevant here when all the information is so readily available)

Twisty twisty twisty....  Perhaps you might want to read the article: The big ol' BLUE hyper link helps to click....

" perhaps an orbit about 27,000 miles from our planet. "

"that Earth-orbiting satellites could collide with the colossal cable — a potential problem that could be mitigated by keeping the cable outside Earth's orbital space lanes. "

HRMM, last I checked GEO is ~22,000 miles.  Which number is larger 27,000 or 22,000.... hrmmmmm

And Jan was talking about space debris, not GEO satellites as you damned well know. 

Even if you assumed graveyard orbit, this orbit is only a couple hundred miles above GEO

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4 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Pfff, Jan is clueless about most topics from what I've seen. 

Especially 'cheese', if you can even call it that. 

And he has some kind of Star Wars problem.

Maybe you, Jan, and Otis should read the NBC article Irena Slav hyper linked to from which she copy pasted from before replying.... who knows, you won't come off looking like a loud mouthed millenial bum who spends more time posting rubbish ill informed comments instead of reading...  Just a passing thought....

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24 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Maybe you, Jan, and Otis should read the NBC article Irena Slav hyper linked to from which she copy pasted from before replying.... who knows, you won't come off looking like a loud mouthed millenial bum who spends more time posting rubbish ill informed comments instead of reading...  Just a passing thought....

Trash talking others isn't going to win you many friends.

https://community.oilprice.com/topic/3378-wti-now-at-70-headed-for-50s/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-23018

20190926_085534.jpg.c2b8e4593a145f175af56d6b4b042a23.jpg

 

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5 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Trash talking others isn't going to win you many friends.

Friends you meet face to face.  Friends, you eat meals with.  Friends you help move.  Friends you deal with their marital problems as dirt cheap psychologists(loss of ego/face though so not free) and free baby sitters.  No, there is no such thing as a "friend" online. 

Ah, mocking due to ignorance is A-Ok, but calling them on their ignorant mocking is not.... 

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2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

you, Jan, and Otis should read .. who knows, you won't come off looking like a loud mouthed millenial bum who spends more time posting rubbish ill informed comments instead of reading

And this type of undisciplined comment, which denigrates the Forum and reduces the underlying intellectual foundation of Oilprice as a grouping and interaction platform for industry professionals,  yet once again demonstrates why footeab should not be allowed to post here.  There is this pattern of demonstrated immaturity and appalling behavior that undermines the cohesive nature of Oilprice and starts to reduce it to the demonstrated level of second graders having temper tantrums in the hallways of the elementary school. 

Footeab does not grasp that OIlpriceis a forum for industry professionals.  He sets it forward as a place to exude copious quantities of his personal spleen.  I forewarn anyone who is tempted by seeing this unfettered display of bad behavior that it will not be tolerated.  Do not follow in the footsteps of footeab

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(edited)

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

who knows, you won't come off looking like a loud mouthed millenial bum who spends more time posting rubbish ill informed comments instead of reading...  Just a passing thought....

LOL huh??  🤣   If you actually read the Millenial stuff you'd see I was joking with Doug. Quite ironic you talk of ''maybe you should read blah blah''.

And yes, I'm a bum that trades commodities and indices. You got me. No work involved at all. Easy. My username confused you maybe?

''Ignorant mocking'' = making a joke about cheese? Don't believe I mocked you in any way did I? If anything I mocked Jan. But yes it was quite outrageous of me. Cheese AND Star Wars no less. 

It's called a joke. Try it sometime. Just a passing thought.

It's more fun than this nerdy Moon nonsense trust me. 

Cheers. 

 

Edited by DayTrader
ill informed comments about cheese are forbidden

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Just read this thread - So we attach a cable to the Moon and Us- Earth, I saw some posts about tensile strengths etc, really this in absolute nonsense. Where would the fixed point be at the earth or the moon? Will the cable be so long that it allows for the change of length due to the earths or Moons changing orbit in relation to fixed point? How big a cable to secure such a load? it would require some kind of dynamic fluid bearing or floating mounting feature which would surround the world or moon. Or do we place two colossus dynamic bearings or not yet invented systems on both planets. This is probably the stupidest thing I have heard since the Ethanol thread.

First Floor - Gravity suits and oxygen systems

Second floor- Space Junk and Poo Pouri (mix of space junk and democratic agendas)

Third floor- Millenial safe Space-final destination.

Or have I have totally misread the seriousness of this thread and its actually sarcasm, we can't sort out are shit on earth so lets  lasso the moon, for f£$^ks sake its made of cheese. 

Screen Shot 2019-09-26 at 06.32.16.png

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5 minutes ago, James Regan said:

so lets  lasso the moon, for f£$^ks sake its made of cheese. 

Cheese jokes are forbidden due to the newly self appointed comedy police. Come on James. 

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(edited)

3 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Cheese jokes are forbidden due to the newly self appointed comedy police. Come on James. 

I had thought about Jan but then decided not to prod the tiger, you just made me do it.

#bigboydiditandranaway

Edited by James Regan
cheesy joke-not funny
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17 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Edited 9 minutes ago by James Regan
cheesy joke-not funny

Correct. No ignorant mocking of mould please guys. 

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On 9/25/2019 at 7:16 PM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Twisty twisty twisty....  Perhaps you might want to read the article: The big ol' BLUE hyper link helps to click....

" perhaps an orbit about 27,000 miles from our planet. "

"that Earth-orbiting satellites could collide with the colossal cable — a potential problem that could be mitigated by keeping the cable outside Earth's orbital space lanes. "

HRMM, last I checked GEO is ~22,000 miles.  Which number is larger 27,000 or 22,000.... hrmmmmm

And Jan was talking about space debris, not GEO satellites as you damned well know. 

Even if you assumed graveyard orbit, this orbit is only a couple hundred miles above GEO

Those things your criticizing aren't my words... they're direct quotes from the article. So take it up with the author.

And theres debris well past 23,000 miles, at all levels. Yes, most is lower,  but dragging a trailing string... going to cause probelms.

I think the others got the other problems covered.

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