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34 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Great! We both have HK people with boots on the ground. But, have you been in HK during the riots?  NEWSFLASH:  I have. What I see with my own eyes, and what I hear from residents with my own ears, contradicts seriously the propaganda reported in the MSM. Shall we compare notes?  

The problem is that anyone can claim anything on a forum such as this....with absolutely no means of verification.

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(edited)

Which is why we should believe whatever anyone says about their situation.  None of us can verify each other's personal situations.  So long as no one says anything too silly we should  "default to belief" if only for the sake of continuing the argument.  

What I am sure of is this: the protesters do not speak for all of HK.  Similarly, they're not the ruffians portrayed in Chinese media and have legitimate fears of Beijing.  Like all protesters, they're a motley group, which means that both sides can find evidence to support their claims if they squint hard enough.  

Personally, I'm of the belief that instead of protesting, they should just vote with their feet and move.  It's safer for them, and given their education and money the US and Europe and Australia are pretty nice places to live in. 

Edited by Zhong Lu

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1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

Which is why we should believe whatever anyone says about their situation.  None of us can verify each other's personal situations.  So long as no one says anything too silly we should  "default to belief" if only for the sake of continuing the argument.  

What I am sure of is this: the protesters do not speak for all of HK.  Similarly, they're not the ruffians portrayed in Chinese media and have legitimate fears of Beijing.  Like all protesters, they're a motley group, which means that both sides can find evidence to support their claims if they squint hard enough.  

Personally, I'm of the belief that instead of protesting, they should just vote with their feet and move.  It's safer for them, and given their education and money the US and Europe and Australia are pretty nice places to live in. 

How do you leave your home and relocate elsewhere? This assumes you can financially afford to get rid of your business or quit your job, sell the family residence and possess the necessary criteria to legally be granted asylum or a legal status in another country. Easier said than done!

Is leaving a problem a solution?

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As a mainland Chinese myself, I'm utterly disgusted by many mainland Chinese's attitude towards Hong Kong people. They are accusing and often bullying Hong Kong people not for what's right. But for their own selfish illusion that they are living in a powerful, rich and great country. They can't stand people critisizing their government, not foreigners, not our own Chinese people. Because they know they have no guts to stand against the ruling communist themselves. They have no freedom of speech and they know that will never change. Hence they are super annoyed at anyone who pops the bubble every now and then. These people are carefully choosing their words on Chinese heavily censored social media channel, WeChat. Anything slightly against the communist party are forbidden and will be deleted. Frankly today's China is the worlds biggest laughing stoke. 

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(edited)

Allowing China to be part of WTO gave China 40 years of economy development, which has been seized by the communist party to make Chinese people do, value and judge everything by money.

Dictatorship makes people rich? Great, give us more of the dictatorship.

Other countries are critisizing China? Well that's because their economy is shit.

Hong Kong people are protesting? Must be because they are not getting richer as fast as the mainland Chinese.  

For this reason along, the world should not let the communist party take the advantage of the world economy. As I can clearly see that allowed them to destroy the young generations of Chinese people, with twisted values.

Edited by zeus
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10 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Great! We both have HK people with boots on the ground. But, have you been in HK during the riots?  NEWSFLASH:  I have. What I see with my own eyes, and what I hear from residents with my own ears, contradicts seriously the propaganda reported in the MSM. Shall we compare notes?  

Doesn't sound like there is much point. You are clearly against the protests and against the violence, unless it's the police violence, which to you seems fine, as all you've said is ''who started the violence?'' etc. You haven't said a bad word against the police's actions or responded to any of my FACTS about the situation there. Just ''the MSM is propaganda''. Well there's a newsflash. I guess the footage of 200,000+ protesters was faked too. They didn't officially withdraw the bill for months, and by the time they did the protesters had other complaints due to little things like being beaten by police, not being labelled as ''rioters'' (which you so happily call them), as it could lead to a jail term etc etc. 

If you just wanna defend HK go ahead. But to compare notes on opinion is pointless, and arguably what we are doing.

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(edited)

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-protests/chinese-soldiers-in-hong-kong-warn-protesters-as-emergency-rules-fail-to-quell-unrest-idUKKCN1WL00T

'' What started as opposition to a now-withdrawn extradition bill has swelled into a pro-democracy movement against what is seen as Beijing’s increasing grip on the city, undermining its “one country, two systems” status promised when Britain handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997.China dismisses the accusation, saying foreign governments, including Britain and the United States, have fanned anti-China sentiment''.

Yep ....if in doubt. Boring.

Oh, so Chinese soldiers are IN HK ... they've not got involved though. Hmm.

Edited by DayTrader

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?m=02&d=20191006&t=2&i=1437796278&w=370&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=LYNXMPEF950JX

I notice the police and how masked and protected they are... thankfully they have arrested this unarmed teenage girl. Phew. She was undoubtedly a coward anyway. They are true heroes. 

 

 
 
 
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DT,

Perhaps we can set up a ‘gofundme’ (I think that’s correct) for the HK ‘rioters’?

I don’t know how to do this, but reckon you probably do. Seems to me that these sites are commonly set up for nonsensical causes....here’s a worthy cause!

The ‘rioters’ will likely need financial assistance for PPE (personal protective equipment), butane lighters, spray paint, umbrellas, etc....

They’ll likely need air drops of food, water, toothpaste, soap, toilet paper, etc...once communist China decides to blockade HK. Starts to get expensive!

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Looks like the Communist Chinese are following the Iranian Playbook in regards to the residents of Hong Kong. After decades of a free, modern, vibrant society...they decide to destroy that society and rebuild it in their own image.

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It seems that we have all ignored the massing of ‘security forces’ complete with armored personnel carries just outside HK territory....

Now what could these be for...🤔

Tiananmen Square...the Sequel?

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8 hours ago, DayTrader said:

?m=02&d=20191006&t=2&i=1437796278&w=370&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=LYNXMPEF950JX

I notice the police and how masked and protected they are... thankfully they have arrested this unarmed teenage girl. Phew. She was undoubtedly a coward anyway. They are true heroes. 

 

 
 
 

Sure, not all protesters are masked, and not all are violent. A photo is but a snapshot in a moment of time, and can be staged, and can be photo-shopped [ie falsified], so cherry-picking one from many thousands serves what purpose? Below is a photo to prove you wrong. tit for tat solves nothing. 

Where did I write I support the police?  Are you saying police should not be called upon to protect the lives and properties of innocents?  Are you saying HK has no authority to call upon its own police force?  Are you saying such call is somehow vastly different from the actions of any other government elsewhere?  Given HK legal autonomy, I should say the use of police is entirely normal for any government. But this does not mean I support police aggressions.  For the record, I support fact, non-violence, and the protection of innocents. I condemn any party who resorts to violence. Once the violence starts, it begets more, and nothing good comes from it. 

From my readings of local HK media, and discussions with locals, the path to violence started with the vandalism of the Executive office by a small group of "protesters". By all accounts, the violence was instigated by this group of radicals. These radicals speak not, act not for the majority of HK citizens. 

HK is self governing. The protests are an internal matter for HK to resolve. We outsiders should remain outsiders and not meddle into the affairs of others. 

138452013_15703778157051n.jpg.8ca8bbd8f075c3e682c04fe18b420269.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

It seems that we have all ignored the massing of ‘security forces’ complete with armored personnel carries just outside HK territory....

Now what could these be for...🤔

Tiananmen Square...the Sequel?

Please explain why you think Tiananmen is relevant. Thank you. 

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45 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Please explain why you think Tiananmen is relevant. Thank you. 

Let’s see if we can make some of the obvious connections which you do not seem to be aware of, or apparently, want to be aware of:

Tianamen Square:

Essentially unarmed civilians protesting against the Communist Party policies results in intervention by the Chinese military (and armored units....I direct you towards the famous photo of the unarmed guy standing in front of the tank). Hundreds of Chinese civilians reportedly killed.

Hong Kong:

Essentially unarmed civilians protesting (yes, and sometimes violently, yet still essentially unarmed) against Communist Party policies.

Armored units and ‘special police units’ massing just outside of HK territory. These vehicles and police are likely not there for traffic control...

What could they possibly be there for? My guess would be an asymmetrical armed response to peaceful civilian protesters AND rioters.

What could possibly go wrong?

Possibly a repeat of TIANANMEN SQUARE!

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So pointless, next it'll be ''tiananmen square photos are a snapshot and could be photo shopped and staged'' blah blah. We should 'stay out' or in other words 'have no opinion' of international matters. And yes, the fact you don't get the tiananmen reference tells me all I need to know. 

Boring.

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7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Let’s see if we can make some of the obvious connections which you do not seem to be aware of, or apparently, want to be aware of:

Tianamen Square:

Essentially unarmed civilians protesting against the Communist Party policies results in intervention by the Chinese military (and armored units....I direct you towards the famous photo of the unarmed guy standing in front of the tank). Hundreds of Chinese civilians reportedly killed.

Hong Kong:

Essentially unarmed civilians protesting (yes, and sometimes violently, yet still essentially unarmed) against Communist Party policies.

Armored units and ‘special police units’ massing just outside of HK territory. These vehicles and police are likely not there for traffic control...

What could they possibly be there for? My guess would be an asymmetrical armed response to peaceful civilian protesters AND rioters.

What could possibly go wrong?

Possibly a repeat of TIANANMEN SQUARE!

So, you believe Tiananmen was a protest against the CCP? From where and how did you get the info to form such a belief? Let me guess: the western presstitutes. 

You are obviously unaware of a key fact: the students at Tiananmen had very large photos of Mao on their tents and placards. Now why you suppose people against the CCP would choose Mao as their symbol of protest? Might something be amiss in such picture? The students in HK choose the flags of USA and UK. Rather odd contrast, would you not say? 

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1 hour ago, DayTrader said:

So pointless, next it'll be ''tiananmen square photos are a snapshot and could be photo shopped and staged'' blah blah. We should 'stay out' or in other words 'have no opinion' of international matters. And yes, the fact you don't get the tiananmen reference tells me all I need to know. 

Boring.

The fact you know nothing about Tiananmen tells me all I need to know. 

Boring. 

 

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(edited)

China and Ghandi good. Rest of planet bad. We get it. Violence bad unless done by Chinese then completely fine. Moral compass wonky yet clear. 

I could just use your amazing logic and say all photos are a snapshot and could be adulterated. As I stated before, utterly pointless conversation. I could find thousands of these if you like..? They're all fake though yeah? Unreal. 

image.jpeg.af48bb5c4822624046cde2549548382f.jpeg Image result for tiananmen square 1989 death image.jpeg.3b72e1365ab57a380e641711a3ea11b6.jpeg

image.jpeg.375c084f53185807b39809ad242095b9.jpeg image.jpeg.a3ed1c98f36abd8b170b11c4af204de7.jpeg Image result for tiananmen square 1989 deaths

 

And trust me, your agenda is waaaaaaay more boring than mine. 

Edited by DayTrader
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(edited)

On 10/6/2019 at 7:54 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

legally be granted asylum or a legal status in another country. Easier said than done!

Is leaving a problem a solution?

Exactly, why should THOUSANDS of people move?? F**king ridiculous. ''Hey if you don't like it just all emigrate''. Sorted. Let China just do whatever they want until the end of time. No biggie. Don't stand up for your beliefs, or your home. Forget all that, and move. Brilliant. 

Edited by DayTrader

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11 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Where did I write I support the police?  Are you saying police should not be called upon to protect the lives and properties of innocents?  Are you saying HK has no authority to call upon its own police force?  Are you saying such call is somehow vastly different from the actions of any other government elsewhere?  Given HK legal autonomy, I should say the use of police is entirely normal for any government. But this does not mean I support police aggressions.  For the record, I support fact, non-violence, and the protection of innocents. I condemn any party who resorts to violence. Once the violence starts, it begets more, and nothing good comes from it. 

 

Fine  / No / No / No / Ok. 

By the way, I'm having trouble finding any phots of injured police? How odd. I guess if I do they are fake though? Considering your apparent support of non violence I'm wondering your views on the many many photos of injured protesters? They are all fake? Made by US and UK? Or are you going to give the response 'they started it' like a child and continually ignore what they're protesting for? / or give me tales of Ghandi? / or ignore the Chinese police at the border? They're just there for a laugh I guess, or it's just MSM and lies that they're there?

What do you honestly think would be happening in HK right now if the world was NOT watching? Think about that. Go back to your pre-internet Ghandi era and tell me what would be done to these people..? And you say these people are cowards?  

You don't even understand the Tiananmen reference, somehow, and compare the UK and India nearly 100 years ago to HK and China today. This is horseshit. I have trading to do.

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Ive lived in HK since 2010. Prior to that I lived in Shanghai and Beijing. All the time in the oil and gas business.  For me this is all about disaffected youth and not a greater drive for freedom.  A youth with no clear future post 2047, who live at home with the parents and can never afford to buy a place of their own. Property leases expire in 2047 so you can not have a mortgage beyond that point.  HK needs to do more to develop low cost housing for all its people in the same way Singapore has with its HDB housing. 

HK needs a leader who sets a strategy for HK post 2047 and not led by administrators. It has for too long sat expecting the mainland to support it and gets preferential treatment from Beijing.  My view is that the strategy should be to preserve the one country two systems since it needs to preserve the rule of law (UK based), financial markets etc.  Otherwise HK would just be like any other PRC city, so why favour HK vs Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai etc? The GreaterBay development will not create more value in HK.  It just dilutes it.

With a clear strategy for the future HK should demonstrate the unique value that HK brings to China and actually seek to extend the one country two systems for a further 50 years.  

NB Im a Brit

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2 minutes ago, Michael Jones said:

NB Im a Brit

Course you are, you make sense 

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10 hours ago, frankfurter said:

So, you believe Tiananmen was a protest against the CCP? From where and how did you get the info to form such a belief? Let me guess: the western presstitutes. 

You are obviously unaware of a key fact: the students at Tiananmen had very large photos of Mao on their tents and placards. Now why you suppose people against the CCP would choose Mao as their symbol of protest? Might something be amiss in such picture? The students in HK choose the flags of USA and UK. Rather odd contrast, would you not say? 

Perhaps, but photos of Mao or not, they still ended up being killed by their own government....right or wrong?

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all photoshopped

duh

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8 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Fine  / No / No / No / Ok. 

By the way, I'm having trouble finding any phots of injured police? How odd. I guess if I do they are fake though? Considering your apparent support of non violence I'm wondering your views on the many many photos of injured protesters? They are all fake? Made by US and UK? Or are you going to give the response 'they started it' like a child and continually ignore what they're protesting for? / or give me tales of Ghandi? / or ignore the Chinese police at the border? They're just there for a laugh I guess, or it's just MSM and lies that they're there?

What do you honestly think would be happening in HK right now if the world was NOT watching? Think about that. Go back to your pre-internet Ghandi era and tell me what would be done to these people..? And you say these people are cowards?  

You don't even understand the Tiananmen reference, somehow, and compare the UK and India nearly 100 years ago to HK and China today. This is horseshit. I have trading to do.

Respectfully, if you are basing your "knowledge" upon western media propaganda, your perspective will be entirely distorted.

I presented a fact. Your response is to ignore it, accuse me of not understanding the Tiananmen reference, and to interject your own agenda. Such a response demonstrates bias and ignorance. Discourse appears not to be in your vocabulary, so I agree with you: we have no basis for discussion.

As for the world watching, yes the world should "watch", and watch with open eyes, without prejudices, and with a desire to seek truth.  If you are suggesting the protests are held BECAUSE the world watches, then you are suggesting outside forces are the cause. Sadly, though outsiders may not have instigated the mass demonstrations, the continuation of the riots by a small faction is now proven to be funded in part by outside forces. With funding comes an agenda, and I opine that agenda is hidden and entirely opposite to the noble cause for the protests. 

 

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